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How do I verify - or debunk - the claims of The Upgrade Company?

74K views 2K replies 101 participants last post by  pepar 
#1 ·
I am an extremely happy owner of an Onkyo 5508. My understanding it that it is virtually identical to the Integra 80.2 with the only differences being the design of the face and a minor feature (or two?) like Pure Audio.


Now The Upgrade Company is offering the 5508 and is making some claims that I don't think are accurate, but would like to find out about. They claim that "The Integra DHC-80.2 prepro is similar internally, however Integra is a consumer line, not a pro line. The Integra 80.2 sounds inferior to the Onkyo Pro 5508. The Integra 80.2 exhibits weaker bass response, a rolled off top end, sounds eiled and slightly less defined in direct comparison to the Onkyo Pro 5508."


I have heard both units .. not in the same system .. and did not notice any deficiencies in the 80.2.


They go on to claim that "The Onkyo Profesisional 5508 prepro has been designed and built to "Pro" standards, not consumer like Marantz, Integra, Anthem, Classe, McIntosh & others that use less costly switching power supplies, often pseudo-balanced architecture."


Again, it is my understanding that these two units are identical inside. So, either my understanding is wrong, or this is a bald-faced attempt to mislead people.


Which is it?


Jeff


Disclaimer: Before any TUC fans get their panties in a bunch here, I am merely asking the question. If someone from TUC wants to drop in and document their claims, that would be great! Also note that I am not calling into question the value of TUC's upgrades nor claims of performance improvements; this is strictly regarding their claims that the 80.2 is both substantially different from and inferior to the 5508.


It's been brought to my attention that the link above doesn't work. Apparently, AVS doesn't allow links to them. OK, click on the link and replace the **** with (remove the spaces "u p g r a d e c o m p a n y")
 
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#54 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac /forum/post/20480656


I saw many first time posters as the above raving about TUC in a long since locked earlier TUC thread. It makes one wonder why someone would all the sudden join AVS to post the above
.


Bil

The answer is given in the Exorcist!

 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 /forum/post/20480682


Did he answer the PM?

Of course not. We are but a few people on one forum. If he even knows about this thread, his best bet is to ignore us. Trying to get people to question what their money is buying from places like this is like trying to talk to Moonies.


Jeff
 
#56 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by preale /forum/post/20480613


I have no experience with the Onkyo products mentioned here, but I have had a number of components modified by The Upgrade Company, including the EMM CDSD se and DAC 6e, a Bel Canto Pre2, and a Bryston 14B SST. I also beta tested Schulte's Time Portal power cords on my digital front end. Whatever he is doing, the results were spectacular. In the case of the EMM pair, I had a second, stock pair with which to compare, so it was easy to tell. TUC's power cords are a bargain for the money and beat all my upscale cords in the collection.

Wow, first post. Welcome to the AVS Forum. You know, don't you, that you have zero credibility?


Jeff
 
#57 ·
I really dislike these discussions.


However, I do want to mention that I compared the performance of my then upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro with a stock unit in May of 2009. As to the sound, there is no question that the 2 units did sound quite different. The upgraded Onkyo 885 trumped the stock unit in all areas including being more open sounding with better more controlled bass, better imaging, better soundstage, clarity, dynamics (both micro and macro), and much more natural and relaxed performance.


Additionally, I have compared the early upgrade of this unit versus some very expensive Preamps and thought that upgraded Onkyo sounded superior.


Since my comparisons in 2009 my Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro has gone through many additional upgrades to the unit so that it's performance far exceeds what I heard in 2009.


I have also noted improved audio and I also believe improved video performance of my upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE Blu-ray player particularly after the latest installation of the Upgrade Company's proprietary shielding.


Rich
 
#59 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/20480816


Wow, first post. Welcome to the AVS Forum. You know, don't you, that you have zero credibility?


Jeff

In many of these sort of threads, its always a "New member" that seldom posts that will come out and declare great improvements. Its pretty funny actually, a member that has really done some proper testing, has many components never posts these highly subjective conclusions. I just amazing how they come out of the woodwork



.....If it quacks like a duck....you know the rest
 
#60 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/20481159


In many of these sort of threads, its always a "New member" that seldom posts that will come out and declare great improvements. Its pretty funny actually, a member that has really done some proper testing, has many components never posts these highly subjective conclusions. I just amazing how they come out of the woodwork

It's just as true (or perhaps more so) that one can better judge the bias of someone who has been around for a long time. It becomes very easy to bypass post after post... if they post the same thing more than twice I tend to ignore them.
 
#61 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R /forum/post/20481189


It's just as true (or perhaps more so) that one can better judge the bias of someone who has been around for a long time. It becomes very easy to bypass post after post... if they post the same thing more than twice I tend to ignore them.

Absolutely! one has to pick a side. I like being educated
 
#62 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by par4 /forum/post/20480958


Then why start the thread?

I was interested in their claims about the differences between two STOCK units, the Integra 80.2 and the Onkyo 5508. My post that you have quoted was a lapse into overall value of the mods they do and was a mistake on my part.



Jeff
 
#63 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 /forum/post/20480906


I really dislike these discussions.


However, I do want to mention that I compared the performance of my then upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro with a stock unit in May of 2009. As to the sound, there is no question that the 2 units did sound quite different. The upgraded Onkyo 885 trumped the stock unit in all areas including being more open sounding with better more controlled bass, better imaging, better soundstage, clarity, dynamics (both micro and macro), and much more natural and relaxed performance.


Additionally, I have compared the early upgrade of this unit versus some very expensive Preamps and thought that upgraded Onkyo sounded superior.


Since my comparisons in 2009 my Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro has gone through many additional upgrades to the unit so that it's performance far exceeds what I heard in 2009.


I have also noted improved audio and I also believe improved video performance of my upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE Blu-ray player particularly after the latest installation of the Upgrade Company's proprietary shielding.


Rich

Hi,


I Google mapped your location in Breinigsville, PA. You are only about 30 miles from me. I wonder if you would like to get together and allow me to audition your upgrades from TUC? I currently have a "stock" Integra 80.2 and prior to that, I had a "stock" Onkyo 885. I also have a "stock" Oppo 83. I think that, if the improvements made by TUC were readily apparent, I would be able to tell, and then I would certainly consider doing some of these upgrades myself.


Also, the OP, pepar, is only a few miles further west of us. He currently owns a "stock" 5508, Oppo 83 and is a prior owner of a "stock" 885. He may wish to participate as well.


Finally, another poster in this thread, DMark1, lives in Lancaster, PA. He currently owns my old 885, (still stock) and an Oppo 83SE. It was actually his questioning of pepar and I about TUC that was the instigation for this thread. I'm sure he would have great interest in auditioning your improvements also.


In return, I'm sure I can speak for all 3 of us when I offer that we would be happy to let you audition our systems as well. It would be interesting to get your thoughts about the potential benefit to our systems also.


Let me know if you would be interested.


Craig
 
#64 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 /forum/post/20480906


I really dislike these discussions.


However, I do want to mention that I compared the performance of my then upgraded Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro with a stock unit in May of 2009. As to the sound, there is no question that the 2 units did sound quite different. The upgraded Onkyo 885 trumped the stock unit in all areas including being more open sounding with better more controlled bass, better imaging, better soundstage, clarity, dynamics (both micro and macro), and much more natural and relaxed performance.


Additionally, I have compared the early upgrade of this unit versus some very expensive Preamps and thought that upgraded Onkyo sounded superior.


Since my comparisons in 2009 my Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro has gone through many additional upgrades to the unit so that it's performance far exceeds what I heard in 2009.


I have also noted improved audio and I also believe improved video performance of my upgraded NuForce Edition Oppo 83SE Blu-ray player particularly after the latest installation of the Upgrade Company's proprietary shielding.


Rich

My apologies, Rich. I think we might all agree that there are things in the A/V hobby that are bogus and many things that are real. Sometimes what one person puts into the first category is not agreed upon by all. I have seen you on another forum (WBF) and know that you are not a shill. So, again, please accept my apologies for tarring you with a brush that was way too wide.


I really did/do want to limit the point of contention to his claim that the stock 5508 was superior to the stock 80.2 .... when all evidence points to them being identical.


Jeff
 
#65 ·

Quote:
Since my comparisons in 2009 my Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro has gone through many additional upgrades to the unit so that it's performance far exceeds what I heard in 2009

Statements like this immediately pop up negative feelings in my brain. 'far exceeds' suggests something not possible with a few part swaps. At least by any reasonable use of the phrase 'far exceeds'.


I feel like, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to be precise with language. Explain how some piece of music sounds better with the change, and why. Explain how you compared the two systems. Without that sort of detail, I have to dismiss this statement as hyperbole.
 
#66 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/20481293


Hi,


I Google mapped your location in Breinigsville, PA. You are only about 30 miles from me. I wonder if you would like to get together and allow me to audition your upgrades from TUC? I currently have a "stock" Integra 80.2 and prior to that, I had a "stock" Onkyo 885. I also have a "stock" Oppo 83. I think that, if the improvements made by TUC were readily apparent, I would be able to tell, and then I would certainly consider doing some of these upgrades myself.


Also, the OP, pepar, is only a few miles further west of us. He currently owns a "stock" 5508, Oppo 83 and is a prior owner of a "stock" 885. He may wish to participate as well; after all, based on the title of this thread, he would like to verify -- or debunk -- the claims made by TUC.


Finally, another poster in this thread, DMark1, lives in Lancaster, PA. He currently owns my old 885, (still stock) and an Oppo 83SE. It was actually his questioning of pepar and I about TUC that was the instigation for this thread. I'm sure he would have great interest in auditioning your improvements also.


In return, I'm sure I can speak for all 3 of us when I offer that we would be happy to let you audition our systems as well. It would be interesting to get your thoughts about the potential benefit to our systems also.


Let me know if you would be interested.


Craig

Yes, please all be assured that we seek truth. Admittedly, I have a slight bias but since I am aware of it, it is not a "belief" that cannot be overcome. In the same vein, I am agnostic not atheist, on the modifications.


But I have no mercy for TUC when it comes to the statements he made about the 5508 vs the 80.2 as it is out and out BS. And, of course, in the back of my mind is the question "If he lies about that, what else might he be lying about?"


Jeff
 
#67 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/20481338


"Since my comparisons in 2009 my Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro has gone through many additional upgrades to the unit so that it's performance far exceeds what I heard in 2009"


Statements like this immediately pop up negative feelings in my brain. 'far exceeds' suggests something not possible with a few part swaps.


I feel like, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to be precise with language. Explain how some piece of music sounds better with the change, and why. Explain how you compared the two systems. Without that sort of detail, I have to dismiss this statement as hyperbole.

I need to step in and say something here ...


I recently upgraded from an 885 to a 5508 and I must say that the performance far exceeds the 885. I have not measured it, nor do I know how I would have. So, let's not dismiss a member's observations as being unscientific and hyperbole because there are no charts and graphs.


Jeff
 
#68 ·
if unit a "far exceeds" unit b, unit b must have really sucked...



i believe michael's point is the hyperbole makes any commentary written the way the op wrote it pretty useless...


the op states it's better in EVERY way, and then goes on to list the usual "laundry list of audiophile things" it's better at... not only that, it's more "relaxed" now (i guess ds must give 'em a couple martinis on their way out ther door
)....


c'mon...
 
#69 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj /forum/post/20481440


if unit a "far exceeds" unit b, unit b must have really sucked...



I characterize improvements in sound quality as yet another curtain being lifted from between me and the music. Fortunately, my system has gotten better and better over the years, and room treatments and Audyssey room correction have iced it. Still, I am surprised sometimes when a curtain is lifted that I did not know was there. I expected my 5508 to sound better than my 885, but I did not expect it to be so dramatic a difference. The 885 did not suck by any stretch of the imagination, but ... my 5508 far exceeds it.


That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Jeff
 
#70 ·
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I have some stones, pebbles, maple blocks, and magic clocks for sale that will drastically improve the SQ of any component in any system that y'all might own. PM me for details



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the power of Spotcheck Billy compells you .......
 
#71 ·
As to the question of getting together for those in the area, it is something that might be considered however, my other half is always reticent to visitors that I do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/20481303


My apologies, Rich. I think we might all agree that there are things in the A/V hobby that are bogus and many things that are real. Sometimes what one person puts into the first category is not agreed upon by all. I have seen you on another forum (WBF) and know that you are not a shill. So, again, please accept my apologies for tarring you with a brush that was way too wide.


I really did/do want to limit the point of contention to his claim that the stock 5508 was superior to the stock 80.2 .... when all evidence points to them being identical.


Jeff

Jeff,


That is OK, some of us have been called worse.


In any case, there is no question that Onkyo has been making improvements in the designs of their Pre/Pros since the introduction of the stock 885 so it is no surprise that your newer stock 5508 unit did sound better than the stock 885.


I may have exaggerated slightly as to the improvements since 2009, but probably not by much. There is no question that the performance did sound better, but I no longer had that unit or a stock 885 available to compare with after the later modifications.


I think many do not understand about what David and the Upgrade Company is doing to the units. Many DIYers and people that get inside of their equipment like Tony and Roger on WBF is to replace "weak" component parts particularly caps and resistors. In fact Roger and I are working on upgrading 2 Ampex R2R 440C/B Hybrid tape decks using much of these practices.


So, David is replacing parts in specific portions of the circuitry that do make changes to the sound. The key here though is having an understanding of what is changing and having a keen ear for voicing the changes in the sound. Additionally, like Roger of WBF, David has found that many of our components are losing information (or being masked- so we are removing veils) due to noise in the system including RFI and EMI. David has his own methods of dealing with this including damping materials, adding shielding, usage of filters, etc. Some of this is the usage of shielded tape, and sometimes the AVR fluid that many do not like or believe in. Also, and part of the reason that equipment may be worked on with time is the fact that David learns new ways to improve performance as he experiments with changes. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. So, machines that have been worked on previously can sound still better with additional attention at a later date.


I also know that many may not like the appearance of the finished work, but that is another question entirely. Not everything in life is "pretty"


Rich
 
#72 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 /forum/post/20481636


As to the question of getting together for those in the area, it is something that might be considered however, my other half is always reticent to visitors that I do not know.

Well, if you would like to get to know us first, (or at least me), you are welcome to come down here and listen to my system. I would be interested in your thoughts about the potential for improvements. You can also bring your wife along, if she's so inclined.
I've known pepar and DMark1 for quite some time, so they could come over and meet you as well.


Then, after we've all met, maybe you could audition your system for me/us, so I/we can get a feel for the improvements. Thanks.


If you want to pursue this, PM me and we can work out the details.


Craig
 
#73 ·
very interesting .. i got my pop-corn ready !

The last thread on TUC was a flame war that was locked !
.

i did notice some reviewers in some of the Mags now have TUC units in their equipment signatures & no, I'm not gonna spend an afternoon looking on google for where I seen them............
 
#74 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/20481813


Well, if you would like to get to know us first, (or at least me), you are welcome to come down here and listen to my system. I would be interested in your thoughts about the potential for improvements. You can also bring your wife along, if she's so inclined.
I've known pepar and DMark1 for quite some time, so they could come over and meet you as well.


Then, after we've all met, maybe you could audition your system for me/us, so I/we can get a feel for the improvements. Thanks.


If you want to pursue this, PM me and we can work out the details.


Craig

Hi Craig,


That is certainly a possibility. I also have some friends over in your neck of the woods on Blu-ray.com who actually also live in Lancaster and the surrounding area. I am thinking particularly of Fors* whose real name is John as well as Troy (Frey Theater).


From experience at this point, one of the best improvements to a system can be obtained from proper installation of Acoustic Room treatments. They have had the greatest affect on the sound in my system second only to the acquisition and installation of my new speakers.


I am not trying to brag or show off, but if you wish to see the evolution of my present system you can look at this link:

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gal...r=naturephoto1


Rich
 
#75 ·
I can only conclude that the count of the set of scenarios where 'far eceeds' is applicable , FAR EXCEEDS the count of the set of scenarios where I think it applies.


Let's say you have a scale of 0 to 10 with 0 being no improvement and 10 being like the difference between a baby banging on a pie tin and 10 being Chopin playing Chopin on the best piano ever made.


I would say 'far exceeds' is like 7 or better on the scale.


Seems like some people think a scale of 0 to 10 means they should start at 5 (a common problem with scales...people tend to start high, see IMDB.)
 
#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by naturephoto1 /forum/post/20481878


Hi Craig,


That is certainly a possibility. I also have some friends over in your neck of the woods on Blu-ray.com who actually also live in Lancaster and the surrounding area. I am thinking particularly of Fors* whose real name is John as well as Troy (Frey Theater).


From experience at this point, one of the best improvements to a system can be obtained from proper installation of Acoustic Room treatments. They have had the greatest affect on the sound in my system second only to the acquisition and installation of my new speakers.


I am not trying to brag or show off, but if you wish to see the evolution of my present system you can look at this link:

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gal...r=naturephoto1


Rich

To say the least, that is a very impressive looking system, and one I would really like to hear.



I have room treatments in my room as does pepar and Dmark1, so you're preaching to the believers on that score.



Let's take it to PM and see if we can work out a GTG.


Craig
 
#78 ·
Rich, CraigJohn, and Pepar:


I am 100% in on this idea, I was thinking the exact thing. I would be willing to take my stock Onkyo 885 and/or Oppo 83SE up to Rich's place to compare it to the TUC modded units. Or, if he is more comfortable coming down here to Lancaster, he can bring his modded 885 to my place. Whatever works!


I think a GTG like this will be very beneficial and could go a long way toward providing some useful information.


Rich, BTW, Nice System!
 
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