The only thread I could find on this topic on AVS is defunct so I thought I'd try starting a new one. We shouldn't have to go to HTShack for this discussion, should we? There seems to be some renewed interest in Pro calibrations lately. So let's see if it flies.
I'm new to the game, and have only run Pro a few times on my XT32 equipped A100. I only ran 8 positions as the instructions recommend 8-10 for average-sized rooms as a good start. Can add more later. So far I'm very impressed with XT32 as it really kicked things up a notch from XT in my AVR4310 without Pro. With Pro so far I haven't tweaked any curves or played with midrange comp. I overrode the suggestions and opted for 80 Hz xovers. So far, my impression is that Pro adds further SQ improvements, smoothness, integration and polish.
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind /forum/post/20677046
^Hi mj, here's an interesting tidbit. When I first ran autosetup on the A100 ( without Pro) I set both Velodyne DD10 subs vol to 11/99, which was apparently fine and sounded good. When I ran Pro the first time, I left them at that level as it appeared each just made it under the max level per the sub level test screen. It sounded good but the Pro Combined Subs curve on the Certificate looked real goofy with significant peaks and dips. I called Luke at Audyssey CS and he advised me that because the combined sub ch trim was now -10.5, that limited what Audyssey could do to smooth the overall FR. He also told me to ignore the phase warning on the subs, which are positioned half way down the front and back walls. I turned them each down to 8 and it completely smoothed the subs curve and trim is now at -6. And it sounds quite good indeed. It makes sense but seems confusing and contradictory to the old "if the channel trim's not at +/-12, it's OK" adage.
The kick drum and bass (guitar or upright) are of course usually mixed in the center, and have a nice live-feeling presence, full yet tight and with a new-to-me palpable impact. What's really unexpected is that now I also get that palpable impact with a lot of well-recorded material, eminating (tom-tom rolls and the like) from the fronts and surrounds!
So when you got to the sub volume level prior to calibration were the levels still within the 71.5 to 75db level that audyssey wants? I actually ran my last calibration with the subs barely hitting 71.5db, not sure the actual # but there is a minimum and maximum and I had them both at the minimum. I just looked at my sub levels and they are at -12 but if I turn them down any further prior to re-running Pro then I will not be within the acceptable range Audyssey PRO asks for
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Originally Posted by Bobkbusch /forum/post/20678960
Anybody care to PM me with a reliable source for the kit? I know I can call Audyssey and ask, but I'd rather go with a recommendation from a member with a good experience from a dealer.
I tried to buy one from the dealer where I bought my Denon 4311, but they told me only a licensed dealer could purchase the pro kit. Further, they told me that even if I found a pro kit on my own, I couldn't purchase a license for my 4311 because I'm not a dealer.
Well you dealer lied to you on that last part. I am not a dealer and getting the Pro license was just a matter of registering the kit at Audyssey.com and from there you free to send them $150 as many times as you like.
I got my Pro kit from a one time deal so I can't help you there. Hopefully someone else can PM you a dealer for the kit.
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Originally Posted by Bobkbusch /forum/post/20678960
Anybody care to PM me with a reliable source for the kit? I know I can call Audyssey and ask, but I'd rather go with a recommendation from a member with a good experience from a dealer.
I tried to buy one from the dealer where I bought my Denon 4311, but they told me only a licensed dealer could purchase the pro kit. Further, they told me that even if I found a pro kit on my own, I couldn't purchase a license for my 4311 because I'm not a dealer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code /forum/post/20678950
Try moving the subwoofers into different room positions....
1 thing we learned a few years back we found out when working with Dr.Toole's (@ JBL/Harman) multiple subwoofer setups was to 1st optimize this.
Just putting the subwoofers where they physically seem to look the best and running the EQ software doesn't deliver the smoothest and best LF response. There are just too many factors of unique LF peaks and nodes in the room to deal with. Regarding the # of subwoofers, they went up to (4) but found significant diminishing returns after (2)..
I have moved my subs around all over my room. Audyssey Pro (only on my Denon 4311) just can't seem to get the delays and EQ right... and it is also having a tough time achieving a smooth XO transition between the mains (really all the satellites) and the subs.
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Also they recommend not to mix different brands/models use a common model.
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Originally Posted by mjaudio /forum/post/20678877
I had a tough time with my subs as well counsil. Never really had a problem before with normal XT. I always go back and check the response via my Velodyne SMS-1, mainly for the transition between the subs and speakers. On occasion I would even rune REW but I have to drag the XP laptop over for that. I did notice the response wasn't as good as I was expecting but only varied slightly so I left the SMS-1 out of the mix but it took time to get it right.
I want to just post the graphs of how horribly Audyssey Pro calibrated my Denon 4311 (consistently even after moving my subs around multiple times).
Before using the DCX (Audyssey off (green) and Audyssey on (light blue))...
After using the DCX (again Audyssey off (green) and Audyssey on (light blue))...
The above sweeps were taken with my mains crossed over at 250Hz.
As you can see, using the DCX to perform the time-alignment and level-matching before running Audyssey Pro has achieved far superior results.
I have the SW1 output of my Denon connected to the Input A of the DCX, then outputs 1, 2, 3, and 4 of the DCX connected to my subs. Therefore Audyssey sees all of my subs as one and corrects them as one.
I just wanted to share my experiences just in case it helps someone else or if someone sees me doing something glaringly wrong (most likely
Also, just for full disclosure, when I ran Audyssey Pro on my Denon (before using the DCX) I essentially had 3 subs. One in each front corner (symmetrical and equidistant from the MLP) and one in the rear. I had the two subs in the front connected to SW1 on my Denon and the rear sub connected to SW2.
Again, Audyssey Pro never had a problem with this when I was using the Audyssey Sub Equalizer (supposedly the same technology as in the Denon 4311). Its MultEQ XT32 in my Denon that seems to be the *problem*.
I need to lower the gains on all my sub outputs in the DCX by a few dBs then re-run Audyssey Pro. Right now Audyssey is setting my sub trim at -12 (the max).
What's weird is that Audyssey Pro read my subs as ~80dB during the level-matching screen. I would have expected Audyssey to set my sub trim to -5 dB or so. Using the old RatShack SPL meter my subs only read 68/69 dB while all my other speakers read 73/74 dB so something is still fishy there. But that's a whole different can of worms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio /forum/post/20678965
So when you got to the sub volume level prior to calibration were the levels still within the 71.5 to 75db level that audyssey wants? I actually ran my last calibration with the subs barely hitting... the minimum. I just looked at my sub levels and they are at -12...
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry /forum/post/20677704
Regarding the different crossover options, I have experimented with both 60 Hz and 80 Hz (all speakers with the same xover). The differences to me are very subtle, both in listening tests, and using REW measurements. So I have settled for 80 Hz all around.
Everyone who has tried turning mid-range comp off has immediately turned it back on. If you experiment, listen particularly to male voices. With comp turned off, I hear a definite decrease in vocal quality, sort of a "tubby" sound.
I haven't experimented with the curve editor. I am quite pleased with the current calibration results, and am not sure my ears are trained well enough for me to trust curve editor tweaking. What I have learned over the past year is the importance of 1) careful speaker placement, and 2) a consistent, repeatable process for placing the microphone during the calibration process.
Having admired pictures of your setup, I would be interested in hearing your feedback regarding improvements you have seen with XT32 and the Pro Kit.
I am primarily a classical music listener to SACD and Blu-ray Mch. I use Martin Logan electrostat hybrids all around. I go to a lot of live concerts. I have experimented with "midrange compensation" with one fellow concert-going listener. We distinctly prefer the midrange dip OFF. Leaving it on subtracts some natural air and ambience from the sound in our view.
With XT, I had increased all sub x-overs to 80 Hz, except my center which Audyssey had pegged at 100 Hz. With XT/32, all x-overs were set lower by Audyssey at 40 - 60 Hz. I have left them at those lower settings, since the sub channel no longer has higher filter resolution. I now hear slightly less artificial bass localization that way on my single JL Fathom f113 sub, although it is possible XT/32's other advantages may be significant in causing this.
So, my calibration is to just default to what Audyssey says except for the elimination of "midrange compensation". I use 11 mike calibration positions around a 3 seat sofa in a large room, including 3 extra center-weighted positions around the center cushion sweet spot. I have never been happier with my sound. It compares very favorably to the very best and costliest Mch systems I have heard and it greatly exceeds any purist stereo at any price in terms of reproducing the sound of a live concert. My processor is an Integra 80.2. My player is an Oppo 83.
I have a Pro Kit that I only used twice for an Integra DTC-9.8. I now have a Pioneer Elite SC-37 and will probably not need the Pro kit again. Please contact me if you are interested in purchasing my Pro kit.
I had contacted several local dealers (who are listed on the Audyssey website) but none had a kit in stock and none could even quote me a price! Luke clarified that the going price for non-professionals is $550. I didn't ask if he'd actually sell me one, as I happened to find a nearly-new kit for sale at significant savings. The seller simply contacted Luke and had him transfer the kit registration to me. Note that for kits that are several years old, there is a FW update charge so get the kit# and check with Luke first before buying used.
Also, note that any license ($150) that has been keyed (used on) a unit is forever attached to that unit and is not transferable. On the other hand, buying a used piece of gear that has a license keyed to it means you don't have to buy another license for that unit.
Well whaddya know, someone just posted a used kit for sale right on the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobkbusch /forum/post/20678960
Anybody care to PM me with a reliable source for the kit? I know I can call Audyssey and ask, but I'd rather go with a recommendation from a member with a good experience from a dealer.
I need to lower the gains on all my sub outputs in the DCX by a few dBs then re-run Audyssey Pro. Right now Audyssey is setting my sub trim at -12 (the max).
What's weird is that Audyssey Pro read my subs as ~80dB during the level-matching screen. I would have expected Audyssey to set my sub trim to -5 dB or so. Using the old RatShack SPL meter my subs only read 68/69 dB while all my other speakers read 73/74 dB so something is still fishy there. But that's a whole different can of worms.
Counsil, if each sub was measuring approximately 80 dB, then when all subs are driven, the output level would normally increase by about 6 dB, resulting in 86 dB. To get it back down to 75 dB, Audyssey would need to set the trim to -11/12 dB, which is what you are seeing. Each of my subs measured 75 dB, which when combined would have yielded 81 dB. And Audyssey sets my sub trim at -6, which seems to support my theory.
And the RS SPL measures approximately 3 dB low for bass frequencies, so your SPL measurement doesn't seem to be that far off.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry /forum/post/20677704
...Having admired pictures of your setup, I would be interested in hearing your feedback regarding improvements you have seen with XT32 and the Pro Kit.
If you're not confusing me with one of the guys who has a nice a dedicated HT, thnx! For the past 9 months I have been working on improving my acoustically difficult family room HT in terms of SQ. I added curtains, a bigger thicker rug with padding, and replaced every single piece of gear except the att HDDVR.
To make a long story short, over the past month I upgraded from the Denon AVR4310 (XT) to the A100 and added a second Velo DD10 sub. I ran XT32 and it was transformational. It took the SQ to a level I had come to doubt was even obtainable in my room as is (I had been seriously thinking about formal acoustic treatments despite the wife's holding her veto pen at the ready). After I ran Pro, the end result was significantly better yet, and I guess I'd describe it much like what Jeff (pepar) and fitzcaraldo have posted here and elsewhere, even more integrated, detailed and polished. But since you want juicy details, let me briefly wax poetic...
Of course, source matters but with well-recorded material, stereo offers a broader, more integrated soundstage with better detail and precise placement of instruments, and yet more ambiance. The impact and dynamics are palpable and thrilling, adding to the realism. For acoustic material, it's almost as though I have the best seat in the house. For studio material, it is not hard to imagine myself sitting right at the control board.
For good MC material, it's all that and more. The integration of all the satellites and subs is seemless. This results in the 3D effect being more pronounced, with an impressive surround bubble and instruments clearly placed at various distances and angles in all planes. Steely Dan Gaucho DVDA is a good example of where considerable thought and attention was put into the recording and production and every detail comes alive. With good film soundtracks, it's more immersive. There's such dynamics throughout the surround bubble, with convincing impact I'd never heard from my surrounds. It used to be that thunder and rain sounded impressively real, but now one drawback is that many other sounds are so realistic and so independent of speakers that they occasionally momentarily jar me out of suspended disbelief. ("Is that someone in the kitchen? Was that something outside?")
I am using my own midbass comp for the surrounds and center. I tune it for the treble xover in each case using the editor in the pro kit and the published xover specs for speaker.
Much better to leave off the mid comp with my Vantages which have no treble xover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry /forum/post/20680483
Counsil, if each sub was measuring approximately 80 dB, then when all subs are driven, the output level would normally increase by about 6 dB, resulting in 86 dB. To get it back down to 75 dB, Audyssey would need to set the trim to -11/12 dB, which is what you are seeing. Each of my subs measured 75 dB, which when combined would have yielded 81 dB. And Audyssey sets my sub trim at -6, which seems to support my theory.
And the RS SPL measures approximately 3 dB low for bass frequencies, so your SPL measurement doesn't seem to be that far off.
I'm glad you started this thread. When I tried to start another Audyssey Pro thread Chris K. was still heavily involved in the Audyssey thread which I believe kept Pro users from *leaving* that thread.
Now that Chris K. will no longer be participating in the Audyssey thread I bet this thread with thrive. I haven't been reading the Audyssey thread because it's been not of interest to me for quite some time.
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind /forum/post/20680259
I had contacted several local dealers (who are listed on the Audyssey website) but none had a kit in stock and none could even quote me a price! Therefore I'm pretty sure Luke would've sold directly to me and the price he quoted direct from Audyssey is $550.
When I called them he seemed to be quite clear that they wouldn't handle the sales paperwork. After I called the closest US places he referred me to a fellow in eastern MA who cheerfully took my order at the price I said I got from Audyssey -- he didn't know the current retail price. The kit was drop shipped directly from Audyssey.
And thnx for the cutepdf stuff! I'm working on getting some graphs up. I really should get more "day job" work done...
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