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JBL Synthesis Calibration video

19K views 109 replies 15 participants last post by  andyc56 
#1 ·
Hello,


I have read much about the different types of equalization systems, and always end up reading that the Synthesis EQ is as good as it gets. I found this video showing a complete calibration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHaWWAKAGEM


I'm a little surprised though... It looks like, it is "just" a set of PEQ's for each channel? Trinnov and Audyssey always write about how they calculate the room in the time domain etc, but is the Synthesis EQ just some simple PEQ's to match a given target curve (with some really good processing equipment)?


If anyone has details about the Synthesis EQ-setup (Called Harman ARCOS i believe), then I'm very interested in hearing what exactly is being done
 
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#77 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13
Here "expected" is the operative word. It's not so much that it needs to tell one Synthesis® amp from another, but it at least needs to know it's a Synthesis® amp with predictable parameters. One could drop in a bevy of tube amps, which wouldn't be "expected" or predictable in the same sense.


Even among the Synthesis® amps, however, knowing if a channel is driven by a single amp module from an S5160 or by a bridged S800 would make a difference. If nothing else, trying to run an S1S-EX sub with less that 160W or trying to run a SAM1HF with 800W might get a warning from the software.
Okay, of course if you're going in the extremes and taking tube amps and underpowered amps into account, then you're right. But unless the Synthesis amps are constructed incorrectly, they should not alter the freq response at all.


What parameters are you talking about?
 
#78 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen /forum/post/20857809


But apart from knowing the response of each speaker, what does ARCOS do besides eq'ing for a predefined target curve?

It first uses Sound Field Management to get the bass as consistent as possible across all seats, then equalizes all channels to a predefined target curve, and finally uses AutoCurveSum to optimize the splice between the mains and sub (listed as "main-to-sub smoothing" in the YouTube video).
 
#79 ·
Does the "other speaker" option on ARCOS also support bi-amped speakers? If so, does the 4500 have the capability to bi-amp more than 3 speakers (I would guess so)?


(Just wondering if I can run a bi-amped Synthesis SAM1HF/SAM2LF setup and additionally configure a pair of bi-amped Maggies for stereo listening. AFAIK, the 4500 has enough outputs, is it 20? So I guess it only comes down to whether the "other" speaker option allows bi-amping and configuring crossovers).
 
#80 ·
We have all 7 of our speakers bi-amped. Combined with our subs, we have 20 channels running concurrently. We just expanded it to eq another system with 20 other speakers that are also bi-amped for a combined total of 40. The latter though, is through custom software developed for us so not sure if that is a generic capability. Doing so in the baseline system with non-JBL speakers, is probably standard but let me check.
 
#81 ·
OK, got the answer. If you are using SDEC-4500 (20-channel system), you can indeed set the speaker to Other and have it be bi-amped. Indeed, that is the way it works by default.


But here is thing, when you do that, it makes no assumptions about the crossover point! Your installer/designer needs to be familiar with the underlying London Architect on which ARCOS is based on and set the appropriate filters. This is not hard at all but does require the person know how to operate that (we do that routinely since we also hand program the DSPs for many applications outside of home theater).


Second and important related note: the ARCOS system is designed to push the JBL speakers, hard. It knows that they can take a lot of punishment. If you select other, the same aggressive logic is there by default. This means that it is very possible to damage your speakers and indeed, I hear many stories of dealers substituting other speakers, getting a great EQ out of ARCOS, only to have the amps/speakers blown at full dynamic range.


So again, this is easy to fix in the London Architect by setting appropriate limiters. Hate to see you cook your Maggies so please be sure to keep these things in mind as you go down this journey
.
 
#82 ·
Amir, thank you for your very informative answers! Now I just need to find a way to get hold of the equipment I need for my journey


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm /forum/post/20872559


Second and important related note: the ARCOS system is designed to push the JBL speakers, hard. It knows that they can take a lot of punishment.

I understand that, and that's exactly what piques my interest in ARCOS: It's an optimized solution.


That said, I'm wondering if JBL has plans to make ARCOS work with the upcoming MP-20? Clearly the integration and strength all lies in the ARCOS software and possibly the MP-20 could replace the SDEC-4500 at the end of the day. The question is if the MP-20 is flexible enough and allows configuring multiple crossovers for bi-amping, etc...
 
#84 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20875548


What other room correction would Harman have in the MP-20?

Since ARCOS is for dealers only, you'd think the MP-20 will have a different room correction system with calibration software and microphone equipment available to everybody like it is with TacT and other competitors.


If the MP-20 requires dealer installation, it surely will limit the market. AFAIK the MC-12 did not require dealer installation?!
 
#86 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen /forum/post/20880751


Since ARCOS is for dealers only, you'd think the MP-20 will have a different room correction system with calibration software and microphone equipment available to everybody like it is with TacT and other competitors.

You're confusing Harman's room correction (ARCOS software) with the JBL Synthesis calibration kit (hardware). ARCOS will eventually be all Harman gear, from high end Lex and Levinson pre-pros to H/K receivers, while the JBL Synthesis calibration kit is only sold to dealers and calibrators who have gone through training to use that kit. Naturally, the version of ARCOS on a Mark Levinson pre-amp will be different than the version on a $499 Harman/Kardon receiver.


Audyssey did the same thing, having different levels of the same room correction on various pre-pros and receivers. Plus they had an Audyssey Pro microphone kit that was only sold to trained/certified Audyssey Pro calibrators. If you wanted to go beyond the consumer level Audyssey on your receiver, you hired an Audyssey calibrator.
Quote:
AFAIK the MC-12 did not require dealer installation?!

The MP-20 won't be any different than what I do with my MC-12: plug in 4 mics, push a button and walk away. Of course it won't be the same level as a full-on Synthesis calibration.


MP-20 owners can always hire an ARCOS certified calibrator to get Synthesis level calibration (8 mics, higher resolution measurements, more correction filters, manual tweaking, etc). Whether that will still require an SDEC unit or whether the filters can be dumped into the pre-pro (a la Audyssey Pro) remains to be seen/announced.
 
#87 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


You're confusing Harman's room correction (ARCOS software) with the JBL Synthesis calibration kit (hardware). ARCOS will eventually be all Harman gear, from high end Lex and Levinson pre-pros to H/K receivers, while the JBL Synthesis calibration kit is only sold to dealers and calibrators who have gone through training to use that kit. Naturally, the version of ARCOS on a Mark Levinson pre-amp will be different than the version on a $499 Harman/Kardon receiver.

So you're saying that the ARCOS shipped with the MP-20 will be stripped of the Synthesis speaker selections and all those optimizations?


The "JBL Synthesis calibration kit (hardware)" is just that: Hardware for the SDEC-series. Of course this is not needed for the MP-20.


All the magic is done in ARCOS, and I thought this software is only available to dealers. Am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


The MP-20 won't be any different than what I do with my MC-12: plug in 4 mics, push a button and walk away. Of course it won't be the same level as a full-on Synthesis calibration.

Sure, the number (and quality) of microphones offered to the consumer is a limiting factor, but apart from that, will the ARCOS consumer software be crippled too? That remains to be seen, I guess...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


MP-20 owners can always hire an ARCOS certified calibrator to get Synthesis level calibration (8 mics, higher resolution measurements, more correction filters, manual tweaking, etc). Whether that will still require an SDEC unit or whether the filters can be dumped into the pre-pro (a la Audyssey Pro) remains to be seen/announced.

Pure speculation...
 
#88 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


You're confusing Harman's room correction (ARCOS software) with the JBL Synthesis calibration kit (hardware). ARCOS will eventually be all Harman gear, from high end Lex and Levinson pre-pros to H/K receivers, while the JBL Synthesis calibration kit is only sold to dealers and calibrators who have gone through training to use that kit. Naturally, the version of ARCOS on a Mark Levinson pre-amp will be different than the version on a $499 Harman/Kardon receiver.

So you're saying that the ARCOS shipped with the MP-20 will be stripped of the Synthesis speaker selections and all those optimizations?


The "JBL Synthesis calibration kit (hardware)" is just that: Hardware for the SDEC-series. Of course this is not needed for the MP-20.


All the magic is done in ARCOS, and I thought this software is only available to dealers. Am I wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


The MP-20 won't be any different than what I do with my MC-12: plug in 4 mics, push a button and walk away. Of course it won't be the same level as a full-on Synthesis calibration.

Sure, the number (and quality) of microphones offered to the consumer is a limiting factor, but apart from that, is the ARCOS software crippled too. That remains to be seen, I guess...


Does the MC-12 use an external PC too? If not, then I'm hoping this improves in the MP-20. Of course everybody expects to be able to view curves and tweak things like in TacT (and Meridian?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20881704


MP-20 owners can always hire an ARCOS certified calibrator to get Synthesis level calibration (8 mics, higher resolution measurements, more correction filters, manual tweaking, etc). Whether that will still require an SDEC unit or whether the filters can be dumped into the pre-pro (a la Audyssey Pro) remains to be seen/announced.

Pure speculation... But I guess you're right that the current ARCOS 8-mic measurement kit can be used for configuring the MP-20 too.
 
#89 ·
Peter


Until Harman releases the products that contain ARCOS, it's all guesswork. Even those who've been to Northridge to preview it won't know all the ins and outs until it hits the market.


To give it some perspective, the two units in my "old" SDEC4000 cost more than an MC-12, and they needed an SDP-5 (MC-8) or SDP-40 (MC-12) to even be useful. That was nearly a third of the cost of some Synthesis® systems, and that was before paying a pro calibrator a couple of $k to bring the JBL DACS out to do the calibration.


ARCOS will cut the cost and simplify the process, but it will not suddenly flatten the product to a one-size-fits-all commodity. Harman will guard its margins and parcel out the feature set in order not to cannibalize high margin products and services with low-margin consumer goods. Still, it will be a step forward at all levels, and the consumer/enthusiast will have to decide where the ROI is on an individual basis.


At one point, I just made the commitment to spend what I had to to get the best I could. I didn't ask if I could get the TOL calibration by buying a $10K system. I knew that if I wanted the TOL calibration to a) be available and b) have meaning, I needed to get the system it was designed to work with.


The MP-20 looks to be a fantastic product, but if I get one (or its JBL Synthesis® counterpart) I still fully expect to use my SDEC4000 with it to do the really heavy lifting, including setting the crossovers, the xo slopes, the PEQ, the response curves, and the dynamic output to the amps. I'd be really, really surprised if an MC-20 was prepared to do all that.


For one thing, I doubt that it can handle providing the active crossovers and slopes for bi-, tri- or quad-amping passive speakers. Most speakers, even high end, will already have built-in crossovers that would be a bear to defeat.
 
#90 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen /forum/post/20882570


So you're saying that the ARCOS shipped with the MP-20 will be stripped of the Synthesis speaker selections and all those optimizations?

Posted a year ago in this forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptruce /forum/post/19024313


I did manage to contact JBL Synthesis and the tech rep, David Glass was able to get some info out the one of the engineers...


>>In actuality what you need are (1) multiple subwoofer placed properly with Sound Field Management of the multiple subwoofers to get the lowest seat to seat variation; (2) EQ correction of room modes in the global subwoofer signal; (3) EQ correction in the LCR speakers, as there is significant energy in the room over the crossover even at 80hz standard where the LCR are acting down to at least 60, or perhaps lower hz (I have seen 50 or even 40 where they have an impact); (4) and an all-pass (phase) filter to get the proper summation of all the LCR with the Subwoofers. Currently only one product does this, the JBL Synthesis SDEC4500, but most of this will be included in the next generation Lexicon Processor, though with a reduction of measurement resolution, and less filters for room correction.
 
#92 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani /forum/post/20883349


you really ought to consider a TacT or Meridian, rather than relying on the MP-20 to give you those features. Not really.

I already own the Tact TCS Mk III with a full 16-channel Boz 216/2200 crossover&amplifier setup.


As far as I know, the Meridian will not correct above 250Hz (or something like that), so it's out of the picture. I have the Synthesis front speakers behind the screen and need the processor to correct for that.


I want to replace the TacT with an equally capable solution. It's clear that the SDEC-4500 will do what I'm looking for. Now I just need to find someone that can sell me the 4500 and provide a calibration kit. When there's a will, there's a way...

 
#93 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen /forum/post/20884113


It's clear that the SDEC-4500 will do what I'm looking for. Now I just need to find someone that can sell me the 4500 and provide a calibration kit. When there's a will, there's a way...

Just throw money at them. It's the great equalizer! Especially these days.
 
#94 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing /forum/post/20886585


Just throw money at them. It's the great equalizer! Especially these days.

It is a proven solution. I've had my share of beta units. I want to be able to watch a full movie without hearing odd clicks and pops or dealing with other problems. I just can't handle another beta at this time...


Throwing money? That's what I did when I purchased a 9th (yes ninth!) TacT Boz 2200 amplifier ($3500) as a spare since I needed an amp and could not wait any longer for another 2200 that I had sent in to TacT for service and that they had been sitting with for almost 3 months... When I purchased the new amp they suddenly got an interest in fixing my other amp... That's how TacT service operates. You need to purchase something new to get something old fixed.
 
#95 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 /forum/post/20764148


They have three sets of drivers. The ones projecting at 45 degrees off vertical axis (one set left, one set right) have a Ti tweeter (in a waveguide) and 4" cone driver; the set going direct into the room has a Ti tweeter (in a waveguide) and an 8" Al inverted dome woofer. This last pair is situated so the tweeter is below the woofer near the bottom of the baffle, and the tweeter is set at ear height or slightly above. There's potential for a lot of MF and HF energy with twelve tweeters, eight mids, and four woofers. The right amount of absorption and diffusion is a big part of the design before cutting the first stud.

FWIW, twelve tweeters are never active at the same time.


The S4Ai is really "two speakers in one". It is equipped with a 12V relay trigger that let's you toggle the unit between "Diffuse" mode for theatre and "Direct" mode for music.


The two upper tweeters are active in diffuse mode and the lower tweeter is active in direct mode. All three are never active at the same time.


Also, in direct mode only one of the midranges is used, and only one of the two coils in the dual coil woofer is used.


I'm assuming that the SDEC has "memory presets" that lets you choose between calibration presets, because obviously the Diffuse mode will require a different calibration than Direct mode...
 
#96 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing /forum/post/20886585


Just throw money at them. It's the great equalizer! Especially these days.

I know it's a joke (more or less) but the truth is in there somewhere. I messed around with various systems and tweaking for over 20 years thinking I could bring it about myself. When I'd saved the money, negotiated a heck of a deal (still a lot of $$$$), hired a consultant on design, did all the construction DIY, and paid the calibrator to come in, I got in about eight hours more than I'd achieved in 20 years of dinking around.


If the time I wasted was worth even minimum wage, I was short-sighted for not spending the money up front. Of course, even there, the truth lies in the middle: I probably couldn't have convinced my ex-wife of 28 years to let me spend the money. My GF and joint-tenant-in-kind of 11 years had no problem with it, 'cuz she got a laptop and a ring.
 
#97 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13
I know it's a joke (more or less) but the truth is in there somewhere. I messed around with various systems and tweaking for over 20 years thinking I could bring it about myself. When I'd saved the money, negotiated a heck of a deal (still a lot of $$$$), hired a consultant on design, did all the construction DIY, and paid the calibrator to come in, I got in about eight hours more than I'd achieved in 20 years of dinking around.
I bet you could not dream of spending that much money 20 years ago. It's probably all the years of dinking around that makes you appreciate a good system and realize all the small things that cost a lot actually are worth the money spent. My next home (if this economy ever makes that possible) will be custom built and I will definitely have the room professionally designed from the ground up.


As for dinking around, it has worked for me and let me come to an understanding of what I want. If it wasn't for the bugs in the TCS Mk III and the very bad taste that 5 years of stuggling with TacT has left in my mouth, I would actually be HAPPY with my system. However, 5 years of fighting is all I can take and there are still a few TacT bugs left to fix. My patience simply has come to an end. Now I need to find something to replace the TacT solution with...
 
#98 ·
True, true. My dad was always saying, "Boy, you're going to learn through the School of Hard Knocks" and he was right. If it took me 20 years, then that was a lot of hard knocks.



Now that my Synthesis® system's been in place a couple of years, I'm just stuck with the proposition of being happy rather than wondering "How can I improve this?" Sometime I'll probably get the itch again, but really, I'm just so effing happy...
 
#99 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 /forum/post/20891669


Now that my Synthesis® system's been in place a couple of years, I'm just stuck with the proposition of being happy rather than wondering "How can I improve this?" Sometime I'll probably get the itch again, but really, I'm just so effing happy...

I hear you loud and clear! Back in the '80s I got all the Technics SOTA stereo gear (including the very rare SB-M1 speakers). I was happily using this gear for 20 years until I in 2004 decided that it's time to "upgrade" and move on to multichannel.


From the get-go my goal was to find a system that I can keep another 20 years. I started out with Parasound. It was a good choice but nine JC1 amps run too hot and were impractical. Then I moved on to TacT...
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by filecat13 /forum/post/20891669


Now that my Synthesis® system's been in place a couple of years, I'm just stuck with the proposition of being happy rather than wondering "How can I improve this?" Sometime I'll probably get the itch again, but really, I'm just so effing happy...

I am in the same position as you. I have set up my dream gear (a pro-gear version of your Synthesis system) and I am really happy with it. But the "search for improvement"-itching sometimes occur. Thats why I started this thread. I am currently using the same approach as ARCOS, but without their algorithms and trained installers.


This is my response compared to a JBL Synthesis response I found:



I think it matches pretty well.


EDIT: Sorry about the size... Dont know what the formatting tags on the forum are for making it smaller.
 
#101 ·
Hmmm.... That's something I really did not think of:


I guess I could purchase the SDEC-4500 and do a manual calibration and live with that until I have everything set up the way I want and at that time get a professional ARCOS calibration.


Is there something stopping me from doing this? Is the software I need to manually set up the crossovers and EQ in the 4500 available, or is all that also part of the dealer-only ARCOS package?


Or to rephrase: Will purchasing a BLU-80/32 combo let me do more than what the SDEC-4500X/P combo can do without availability of ARCOS and other dealer-only software?
 
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