AVS Forum banner

Home Surround Sound vs Movie Surround Sound What's the Difference?

17K views 68 replies 36 participants last post by  vitaminbass 
#1 ·
Home Surround Sound vs Movie Surround Sound

What's the Difference?

Contributed by Axiom Audio




Movie theaters are compelled to use big horn-loaded speakers in order to fill large movie theaters with powerful sound without having to use huge amplifiers (for the same reasons, horn speakers are also used for stadium and outdoor concerts). As such, horns will do the job, but there is a cost in fidelity and natural sound quality. Horns tend to make many sounds a bit aggressive and screechy at times, especially instrumental sounds.


Home surround sound doesn't need to use horn speakers because the rooms are way smaller, so speakers that are more natural-sounding can be used instead.

Read the complete article at HomeToys.com
 
See less See more
1
#27 ·
thanks for saving me from wasting my time, guys.


Sheesh, talk about a handful of grenades on a single target!



James
 
#28 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 /forum/post/21068722


Actually having owned TAD speakers, I can honestly say my Martin Logans are heads and shoulders above them for sound fidelity and the finest speakers I have owned to date. I'm in the camp that isn't crazy about horns.

This article is about Home Theater not 2 channel music.


When it comes to home Theater your Martin logans are distortion machines


Remember, different applications have different priorities. MLs can sound amazing for a specific application as long as you never push them and there isnt any real dynamics.
 
#29 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nillaz /forum/post/21068852


This article is generalized to the point of absurdity while at the same time coming from a suspected biased source, but I have to agree with Splicer in the fact that horn drivers aren't for everyone. Personally I find horn tweeters to be fatiguing over time though they do sound nice in small doses.

Well here is the science....you can not play dynamics peaks of +30db with electrostats or dome tweeters, they play them with high distortion and clipping (no life). You also have very poor off axis response with dome that are without waveguides.


Conclusion, if you want clean dynamics and you want accuracy (controlled directivity) you have to choose the product that gives you that.


I 100% agree that horns are not for every application. I have posted that its application specific and I wouldn't use horns if Im enjoy music at 8 feet away (my office).
 
#30 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan /forum/post/21068942


I also agree that horn tweeters are difficult to listen to when listening to music. I would never consider a pair of Klipsch speakers for a 2-channel setup or purely audio setup. However, when I listen to friends Klipsch systems for movies, I like them. I don't LOVE them, but I like them. But it's all personal taste. Which is why I don't own any commercial speakers. I couldn't find a pair I liked enough to buy. DIY is my cup of tea.

Exactly....Don't you just hate it when you are enjoying the "Horn Loaded" klipsch for movies and then the Darn ole' soundtrack kicks in....breaking glass and your eardrums. Sheeesh I heard (well actually read it) all now. Maybe it was a non treated room. I wouldn't trade my Klipsch for 2 channel music or movies.
 
#31 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray /forum/post/21069999


Well here is the science....you can not play dynamics peaks of +30db with electrostats or dome tweeters, they play them with high distortion and clipping (no life). You also have very poor off axis response with dome that are without waveguides.


Conclusion, if you want clean dynamics and you want accuracy (controlled directivity) you have to choose the product that gives you that.


I 100% agree that horns are not for every application. I have posted that its application specific and I wouldn't use horns if Im enjoy music at 8 feet away (my office).

I know and understand the science, but thank you.
 
#33 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Browninggold /forum/post/21070098


the "Horn Loaded" klipsch for movies and then the Darn ole' soundtrack kicks in....breaking glass and your eardrums.

Yeah, that sounds like horn loaded tweeters.
(I'm joking!)


It's all personal opinion. I like mine, you like yours. That's all that matters.
 
#34 ·
For those that don't own Klipsch, what speakers were you listening to? I would venture to say Reference line below rf-7's (made in China...the 7's are American made) or some of the other speakers that are more prone to brasiness. On the other hand, a 2 way w/ RF-7's, or the heritage line is outstanding for music.
 
#35 ·
I find horns to be just fine for home theater. I've never listened to any high end horns so I have no clue if I'd like them. I love ribbons for music, but as penngray points out horns would be the best for the huge dynamic peaks while a ribbon or dome may not be able to handle it.


The lower end Klipsch I've heard I loved for HT, music not so much, but they were the cheapo chinese made line so it is expected.


I find it funny that people get so offended when someone says they don't like a particular speaker. That is an opinion. It's not like anyone is telling you not to buy something you may like. Who cares what other people like? Why would you care? My opinion is the only one that matters to me, but that doesn't mean I can't learn something from someone else's at the same time.


Now then. What speaker type CAN handle the dynamics of HT and pull good double duty for a good 2ch setup (without a sub)? That is the question I want answered. My quest for this speaker seems like it will never end.
 
#36 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanteraGSTK /forum/post/21070959


Now then. What speaker type CAN handle the dynamics of HT and pull good double duty for a good 2ch setup (without a sub)? That is the question I want answered. My quest for this speaker seems like it will never end.

um...why... without a sub? it's well established that multiple spaced subs give the best results. I can think of a speaker that does fit your criteria but honestly i'd say the Geddes Summa more than fits the bill for a music/ht dual setup for anyone sane enougj to use multiple subs for all their musical benefits.
 
#37 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/21071089


um...why... without a sub? it's well established that multiple spaced subs give the best results.

2 ch, music-only setups, tend to NOT have a sub. For one, most music doesn't tend to plumb the depths that require a stand-alone sub, over decent floorstanding tower speakers anyways. Two: introducing a sub into the equation can muddle things in the time-alignment domain.
 
#38 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl /forum/post/21071123


2 ch, music-only setups, tend to NOT have a sub. For one, most music doesn't tend to plumb the depths that require a stand-alone sub, over decent floorstanding tower speakers anyways.

And how does such a setup address room modes below 100hz? Just because they 'tend' to do one thing doesn't make that thing optimal. it just makes it popular.

Quote:
Two: introducing a sub into the equation can muddle things in the time-alignment domain.

Not if you understand the psychoacoustics behind bass perception. Not to mention time alignment is trivial to setup for anyone remotely serious about hi-fi. And not one sub, but three or four. we're not talking about plumbing the depths either. take a look at the subjective auditions of Audiokinesis Planetarium Betas or more specifically the SWARM. a 12" midwoofer only playing down to around 120hz, plus four mediocre 8" long throw subwoofers handing bass below that point. notice what they say about the bass for music.
 
#40 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/21071089


um...why... without a sub? it's well established that multiple spaced subs give the best results. I can think of a speaker that does fit your criteria but honestly i'd say the Geddes Summa more than fits the bill for a music/ht dual setup for anyone sane enougj to use multiple subs for all their musical benefits.

I've just never liked to have a sub when listening to music. Granted I don't have a very music capable sub so that is one reason. I'm of the mind that a good 2ch setup should be able to reproduce music properly without relying on a sub for the lowest frequencies. That is what I prefer. I could use a sub, but I don't like to for anything other than HT.


Also, bot any links to the geddes summa? Google wasn't all that helpful. I do like that it is a diy speaker as that's what I'd like to do. Any other wave guide suggestions?
 
#41 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leary /forum/post/21071327


Is there anyone out there who would trade me my Klipsch THX Utra2 7.2 speakers

for a nice set of Bose so I can get some decent sound

after much thought and debating I will but you will have to pay for shipping or traveling expense to exchange the Klipsch for the Bose, I don't want to take too much of a loss
 
#42 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanteraGSTK /forum/post/21071399


I've just never liked to have a sub when listening to music. Granted I don't have a very music capable sub so that is one reason. I'm of the mind that a good 2ch setup should be able to reproduce music properly without relying on a sub for the lowest frequencies. That is what I prefer. I could use a sub, but I don't like to for anything other than HT.

You keep saying "a sub". We're talking about subs. The raw physics dictate that in order for a passive 2 channel speaker to be able to reproduce the lowest frequencies, it either needs a 21" woofer that can play low AND up to 300hz or higher for a good crossover in order to have any decent sensitivity, or to throw sensitivity away for extension. That means the need for 1000w amps to drive a lot of great speakers (IE Revel Salon) and the consequence is that there's so much heat produced that these speakers still don't respond to turning the volume up. And that still has nothing to do with sound quality. if you want sound quality how do you expect to place speakers in the optimal location for imaging/soundstage/timbral accuracy, while not suffering from room mode issues?


As I mentioned in my previous post, you need to consider what ""seasoned audiophiles"" who don't care about HT, think about MULTIPLE subs.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php...7103#msg547103


for example. or Welti/Devantier's research:

http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20111012/13680.pdf


or Geddes' research:
http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/


or sean olive's confirmation (comment number six):
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/0...reference.html


or floyd toole's book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduc.../dp/0240520092


or gene dellasalla's measured results:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...-bass/two-subs


I could keep going, btw. Just about all evidence points to a 2 speaker, 3 or 4 sub approach as being superior to a 2 speaker approach. Listening confirms. Has nothing to do with subs being for HT. we're talking about music. About the only non sub solution that comes close to a multi sub solution is a rotatable cardioid woofer section that shifts to dipole, (like these ) and that's not without its own limitations (mainly a reduction in dynamics making it good for small rooms only, and it has to be an active loudspeaker)

Quote:
Also, bot any links to the geddes summa?

The summa is currently unavaialble. Its little brother the abbey is pretty damn close.

http://www.gedlee.com/abbey.htm


and Duke Lejeune's planetarium betas are arguably better because they are bipoles.


If you want great bass sound quality, then you have to throw away your pride and stop trying to buy speakers that reproduce 20hz on their own.

Quote:
Google wasn't all that helpful. I do like that it is a diy speaker as that's what I'd like to do. Any other wave guide suggestions?

Check out the diy thread for SEOS-12/15
 
#43 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/21071501


You keep saying "a sub". We're talking about subs


As I mentioned in my previous post, you need to consider what ""seasoned audiophiles"" who don't care about HT, think about MULTIPLE subs.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I guess my thinking is those multiple subs should be part of the speaker so it is a self contained unit that is capable of reproducing all frequencies needed for music.


I just want to have 2 speakers that can do what I want without the additional help of subs no matter how many there are.


A good speaker design with bassbins would qualify, but I've got limited space next to the screen so speakers have to be somewhat thin (less than 24"). Plus their primary duty would be HT because I don't get much time to listen to music.
 
#44 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanteraGSTK /forum/post/21071534


Ok, I see what you're saying. I guess my thinking is those multiple subs should be part of the speaker so it is a self contained unit that is capable of reproducing all frequencies needed for music.


I just want to have 2 speakers that can do what I want without the additional help of subs no matter how many there are.


A good speaker design with bassbins would qualify, but I've got limited space next to the screen so speakers have to be somewhat thin (less than 24"). Plus their primary duty would be HT because I don't get much time to listen to music.

You don't see what i'm saying at all, though! Think of a speaker as one source of bass that radiates sound in all directions from that one spot. As the bass reflects off walls in the room that you listen in, it combines and cancels. The bass response in your room from a pair of stereo speakers is probably a mess that you're just used to.


It's borderline impossible for one physical location in the room to illumate the room in such a manner that there's no combination and cancelation of reflected bass waves off of walls. you can try to reduce it to an extent with treatments but it just doesn't work effectively below 100hz, especially not if you don't sit in a 10000 dollar room at one specific seat. If you want good bass below 100hz you need to illumate the room from more than one physical location.


So four subs together is useless. you can consider four subs together as being one sub.


You need three-five subs placed well apart at different locations inside the room, in mono (or two sets of three-five subs if you insist on keeping the signal in stereo, but that's useless). The way the illumate the room differently leads to an averaging of bass that results in as close to flat frequency response as it gets. In geddes' setup, no crossover is even used. the mains are run full range but the bandpass subs play up to 150hz. So there's five PHYSICAL sources of bass - two mains and three subs - keeping bass as flat as possible and thus the tightest bass response possible.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/830660-post13.html
 
#45 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/21071593


You don't see what i'm saying at all, though! Think of a speaker as one source of bass that radiates sound in all directions from that one spot. As the bass reflects off walls in the room that you listen in, it combines and cancels. The bass response in your room from a pair of stereo speakers is probably a mess that you're just used to.


It's borderline impossible for one physical location in the room to illumate the room in such a manner that there's no combination and cancelation of reflected bass waves off of walls. you can try to reduce it to an extent with treatments but it just doesn't work effectively below 100hz, especially not if you don't sit in a 10000 dollar room at one specific seat. If you want good bass below 100hz you need to illumate the room from more than one physical location.


So four subs together is useless. you can consider four subs together as being one sub.


You need three-four subs placed well apart at different locations inside the room, in mono (or two sets of three-four subs if you insist on keeping the signal in stereo, but that's useless). The way the illumate the room differently leads to an averaging of bass that results in as close to flat frequency response as it gets.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/830660-post13.html

Ok. You are correct in saying that I'm used to it. I get your point now, it just isn't possible for me to have a setup like that in my room. The subs will have to be in the front of the room. I've always planned on using multiple subs, I just have always stuck to my two speakers and no subs for 2ch music. I may be missing out, but it just isn't possible. I read Gene's article when it was posted and remember wishing I had the room to do that. Someday maybe.


So for a room as restricted as mine what would you do? I have lots of room in front, but no alternate sub locations due to couches and tables and whatnot.
 
#46 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/21071593


You need three-five subs placed well apart at different locations inside the room, in mono (or two sets of three-five subs if you insist on keeping the signal in stereo, but that's useless).

No, not everyone NEEDS or even wants perfectly even bass response below 100hz.
 
#48 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl /forum/post/21071654


No, not everyone NEEDS or even wants perfectly even bass response below 100hz.

Of course not. But there's no other solution for a person that wants truly accurate bass. The closest you can come is with a very convoluted cardioid as I mentioned earlier, and those themselves can't be placed less than 5ft near walls which is not practical for some people.
 
#49 ·
I just checked out the audiokenesis speakers you pointed out and they look great. I think I could make those work. I was going to build the Jim Holtz Statments for my mains as I like the sound of a ribbon, but have read that for HT they aren't that great. Plus they have the open back mid range so placement would be similar the the beta's you pointed out.
 
#50 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanteraGSTK /forum/post/21071686


I just checked out the audiokenesis speakers you pointed out and they look great. I think I could make those work.

I think you missed the price on the Planetarium Betas!


Quote:
I was going to build the Jim Holtz Statments for my mains as I like the sound of a ribbon, but have read that for HT they aren't that great.

Just how far do you sit? The sealed statements + 3-4 good well placed subs could be a good choice if you sit 8-10 feet away and don't listen at ear bleed reference levels for ""dynamics"". If you listen even a few db below reference like normal people, I don't think the statements are a poor choice. Of course if I had to recommend something with a ribbon, it would be these speakers that lennon put together:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi...t-1319065.html


The woofers for it are currently on sale until Oct 17
 
#51 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanteraGSTK /forum/post/21070959


I find it funny that people get so offended when someone says they don't like a particular speaker.

I don't have a problem with someone saying they listened to speaker A from company B, and didn't like it - but I do have a problem when someone generalizes about a type of speaker design, as this article did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crappy article /forum/post/0


As such, horns will do the job, but there is a cost in fidelity and natural sound quality. Horns tend to make many sounds a bit aggressive and screechy at times, especially instrumental sounds
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top