AVS Forum banner

"Reel Time" Build Log-14' Scope, 9.7 17,000W Transducer Audio, Dedicated Stadium Room

57K views 367 replies 60 participants last post by  cowger 
#1 ·
Well, after viewing one build log after another here on AVS and dreaming of my own dedicated theater, I finally decided to pull the trigger earlier this year when we decided to go into a major house remodel. With the support of everything else we wanted to do with the home, I had enough justification to include a dedicated HT room off of the first level.


First off, if you've seen the name "Reel Time" in another thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1251515 ), you're correct. That's the thread that started with the project in March of this year (2010). I realized two things: 1) I didn't use a very good title as most folks have missed the build altogether and 2) I had too much in there about the entire remodel project (basement, new garage, second story of the new addition, family room remodel, etc.).


So, now nine months later, I've decided to stop posting in the old thread in start this one dedicated to items about the HT itself. There will be some info and pics about the addition build. But, only as it applies to the HT. I've got a lot to pass along, and I'll do that over the next couple of days.


Okay, so onto the HT build. I hope you enjoy and learn as I have by others' examples here on AVS. Please feel free to chime in with anything, good or bad. It's all okay as long as it's constructive!
 
See less See more
#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by seigneur_rayden /forum/post/21159170


Build looks awesome. I have a question though: With a build of this magnitude, why go with a painted screen? Wouldn't a AT screen be better or even a non AT screen.

No offense to MississipiMan, I don't mean to step on your toes, I am just asking.

Thank you. I'm sure that MM will chime in and give his .02 on the matter. What got me going on the painted screen was CalBear's HT build ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942954 ) and the 16' wide screen MM did for him. I've backed down from a 14' wide scope screen to a 12', but it's still a very large area to light up. I'm also strongly leaning towards a constant area setup, so a 16:9 12' wide screen is huge.


I've placed my full faith in MM that he can paint a screen with all his talent and paint formulas that will give me great results. I know he'll deliver. I also want to have this size screen, but not pay for a $20K+ projector to light it up.


An AT screen was something I wanted right off the bat, more specifically, a center channel with sound coming from the picture. Going the transducer route with the audio in the wall itself behind the painted screen, I'll have the same result.


I'm sure many will say that the transducer audit will never produce the sound from a standard high-end speaker setup. Again, I'll let MM answer all that!


Now that I've teed you up, Mr. MM.....
 
#78 ·
FWIW, I had a cheap DIY painted screen prior to my AT screen. Any differences in image quality were very slight. Redtop, have you seen an image on a 14' screen with some of the current projectors? Mine is a 14' AT with a lowly Panasonic AE4000, and it never crosses my mind that my screensize is outside of recommended spec. I think the arguements against extra large screens are overblown. Not only for brightness concerns, but also in terms of view angles and seating distances. My two cents...
 
#79 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 /forum/post/21159370


FWIW, I had a cheap DIY painted screen prior to my AT screen. Any differences in image quality were very slight. Redtop, have you seen an image on a 14' screen with some of the current projectors? Mine is a 14' AT with a lowly Panasonic AE4000, and it never crosses my mind that my screensize is outside of recommended spec. I think the arguements against extra large screens are overblown. Not only for brightness concerns, but also in terms of view angles and seating distances. My two cents...

And with MM's screen being a high-end painted one, I don't have any concerns at all. I agree with you on the arguments being overblown to some extent, but the facts still have to be considered when trying to project that large of an image. I want a good projector, but something I won't feel like shooting myself over in two years (max) when something better comes out for half the price. I'd rather be 95% happy now and save some $ for when 4K becomes affordable.


I've followed your build thread and can't remember how far back your first row viewing is. When I saw 14' wide from my 12' distance it seemed too much for my taste. In the prime second row at 18' it was good, but 12' wasn't bad at all and seemed to work better for the first row. When I then decided to go constant area, a 14' wide 16:9 was just ridiculous.


I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope 12' wide is enough!


BTW - Great progress on your HT! Love the new entrance.
 
#80 ·
My front row is 12' from the 14' wide image. Yes, it would be too much as a prime seat, but it's not "bad" per se. My prime seat is at 19' and the third row is at 23'. I'm comfortable I hit the sweet spot for my seat. It's a little large for the front row and a little small from the back (well...not really).


All this talk, but I don't question you're going to be very happy with your choices!
 
#81 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTopDown /forum/post/21159222


Thank you. I'm sure that MM will chime in and give his .02 on the matter. What got me going on the painted screen was CalBear's HT build ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942954 ) and the 16' wide screen MM did for him. I've backed down from a 14' wide scope screen to a 12', but it's still a very large area to light up. I'm also strongly leaning towards a constant area setup, so a 16:9 12' wide screen is huge.


I've placed my full faith in MM that he can paint a screen with all his talent and paint formulas that will give me great results. I know he'll deliver. I also want to have this size screen, but not pay for a $20K+ projector to light it up.


An AT screen was something I wanted right off the bat, more specifically, a center channel with sound coming from the picture. Going the transducer route with the audio in the wall itself behind the painted screen, I'll have the same result.


I'm sure many will say that the transducer audit will never produce the sound from a standard high-end speaker setup. Again, I'll let MM answer all that!


Now that I've teed you up, Mr. MM.....

Thanks for the reply. If I understand correctly your statement, a painted screen light up easier versus other type of screen. And since you didn't want to spend too much on a PJ (I hear you on that), you went with the painted screen. Plus the painted screen should be cheaper than other type of screen (I hope nevertheless).

Well, I can't wait to see the result. MM, paint that screen already!!!!
 
#82 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by seigneur_rayden /forum/post/21159170


Build looks awesome. I have a question though: With a build of this magnitude, why go with a painted screen? Wouldn't a AT screen be better or even a non AT screen.

No offense to MississipiMan, I don't mean to step on your toes, I am just asking.

A fair question.....and one that weighs on the minds of anyone not familiar with the advances we have made in DIY screen building since I got involved with such "away back when". Besides that, I'm an old, retired Semi-Pro Soccer Player (1969 - 1978) so my Toes are tough, my Shins are heavily callused, and I still can ignore a Red Card long enough to take out the opposition if necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTopDown /forum/post/21159222


Thank you. I'm sure that MM will chime in and give his .02 on the matter. What got me going on the painted screen was CalBear's HT build ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942954 ) and the 16' wide screen MM did for him. I've backed down from a 14' wide scope screen to a 12', but it's still a very large area to light up. I'm also strongly leaning towards a constant area setup, so a 16:9 12' wide screen is huge.


I've placed my full faith in MM that he can paint a screen with all his talent and paint formulas that will give me great results. I know he'll deliver. I also want to have this size screen, but not pay for a $20K+ projector to light it up.


An AT screen was something I wanted right off the bat, more specifically, a center channel with sound coming from the picture. Going the transducer route with the audio in the wall itself behind the painted screen, I'll have the same result.


I'm sure many will say that the transducer audit will never produce the sound from a standard high-end speaker setup. Again, I'll let MM answer all that!


Now that I've teed you up, Mr. MM.....

...and I've hauled out my biggest Driver. I can knock 'em 300+ yards anytime I need to. Trouble is....my Short game sucks.....
But that's OK. Nothing feels better than connecting off the Tee.
Trouble is, I've been waiting to tee off for over a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seigneur_rayden /forum/post/21159518


Thanks for the reply. If I understand correctly your statement, a painted screen light up easier versus other type of screen. And since you didn't want to spend too much on a PJ (I hear you on that), you went with the painted screen. Plus the painted screen should be cheaper than other type of screen (I hope nevertheless).

The ability of any screen, Mfg. or DIY, to "Light Up" is tied to both the PJs Lumen / Contrast output and the Screen's effective Gain /Surface properties. With DIY Screen making, and a knowing hand, a surface can be tailored to be exactly what is needed...size, gain, and positioning. All three being optimized for a given set of circumstances means optimal results. It's that simple...really.


And yes, you best believe it's a WHOLE lot less expensive. Ridiculously so. More Bang for Less Bucks has been the DIY Screen mantra since well before my own time on the Forum Boards. What I've always tried to do is make the quality even more representative of offering the most value while not compromising performance one whit...if not indeed making performance soar over the top of expectations.

Quote:
Well, I can wait to see the result. MM, paint that screen already!!!!

Actually, I can't hardly wait myself. I enjoy doing this sort of thing tremendously...primarily because I revel in the delight of seeing Jaws drop to knee level. Then at the end of it all, leaving someone so proud of his ownership means never having to say; "I'm sorry...that's the best you can expect from a DIY Screen." Instead, I hear; "I don't think I could have ever done better buying a Mfg. Screen anyway." Heady stuff...and the thing that satisfaction is really based upon. I Live or Die on the results of "every" such project, especially the ones reviewed on this Forum. So far.....no Obituary has been written.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTopDown /forum/post/21159403


And with MM's screen being a high-end painted one, I don't have any concerns at all. I agree with you on the arguments being overblown to some extent, but the facts still have to be considered when trying to project that large of an image. I want a good projector, but something I won't feel like shooting myself over in two years (max) when something better comes out for half the price. I'd rather be 95% happy now and save some $ for when 4K becomes affordable.

......and knowing that, I'm sticking with my suggestion of the Epson 5010

Quote:
I've followed your build thread and can't remember how far back your first row viewing is. When I saw 14' wide from my 12' distance it seemed too much for my taste. In the prime second row at 18' it was good, but 12' wasn't bad at all and seemed to work better for the first row. When I then decided to go constant area, a 14' wide 16:9 was just ridiculous.


I can't believe I'm saying this, but I hope 12' wide is enough!

You'll be happy at 12' wide (144" x 81" ) as that is a BIG screen by any standard. Almost 7' high.


FTR...I expect the "light Gray" Screen to top out at approx 1.7 gain "minimum", so at a projected Throw distance of 17.2' and with the 5010 on Normal Lamp output, I calculate a Foot Lambert reading of 22 fl. That's plenty to be able to run the Epson on Low Lamp during Dark Room 2D use, and bump back up to Normal for 3D presentations. I could paint a S-I-L-V-E-R like the one I did for calbear in '08 ......and I just might. That will bump up the expected gain to over 2.0


As for the Transducer installation, and how effective it will be at doing the job required, I'd prefer to let RedTop pass judgement upon his own review. (...It's not my place to sell anyone on the concept...I've never tried to do that...) ) And that WILL happen because with the system involved, as soon as the units are installed and we slap the Drywall up into place and screw them off, the system is ready for an initial shakedown. (...no pun intended...)


We'll have the Power

We'll have the Structure

We'll have the Drivers

We'll have the Subs

We'll have the Screen

We "better" have a PJ.



We absolutely better have the Beer



When the Drywall and Paint dust settles, and we fire up the Room "in the Raw" with no furniture or carpet in place, that will tell RedTop if his confidence was well placed...or was placed at the bottom of a well. His own words will be either the Song of Legends...or the Dirge that heralds my Demise.


Me? I'm not worried at all because I've been there, done all that just a few times before
in the last 33 years and I ain't had to listen to any moaning or wailing as of yet. And RedTop has stepped up to the plate and determined to do things with no compromise at all.


That always makes things a lot easier...lemmie tell ya!
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan /forum/post/21160778


A fair question.....and one that weighs on the minds of anyone not familiar with the advances we have made in DIY screen building since I got involved with such "away back when". Besides that, I'm an old, retired Semi-Pro Soccer Player (1969 - 1978) so my Toes are tough, my Shins are heavily callused, and I still can ignore a Red Card long enough to take out the opposition if necessary.




The ability of any screen, Mfg. or DIY, to "Light Up" is tied to both the PJs Lumen / Contrast output and the Screen's effective Gain /Surface properties. With DIY Screen making, and a knowing hand, a surface can be tailored to be exactly what is needed...size, gain, and positioning. All three being optimized for a given set of circumstances means optimal results. It's that simple...really.


And yes, you best believe it's a WHOLE lot less expensive. Ridiculously so. More Bang for Less Bucks has been the DIY Screen mantra since well before my own time on the Forum Boards. What I've always tried to do is make the quality even more representative of offering the most value while not compromising performance one whit...if not indeed making performance soar over the top of expectations.

Well retired soccer player, you have just scored a goal with that long post that I had to be benched from being tired after reading the post


I myself has a 120" 2.35:1 DIY screen but I used Wilson Art and I would definitely never buy a manufactured screen. But my eyes have always preferred the image projected on a WA or fabric better than on a painted screen. That is why I was asking.

That sentence about your tough toes made me laugh so hard!!!

Again, I can't wait so see that monster and you sir have skills
 
#84 ·
Screen wall finished with full skim coat and sanded super smooth. Hopefully, MM will approve. A few coats of primer are next...

 
#85 ·
Seats from Roman arrived. Opened and set up one of them. Sat in it and almost fell asleep. I guess that's a good sign!

 
#86 ·
Today I put on two coats of primer on the screen wall and primed the AV closet. I'll need to sand the screen wall to ensure everything is really smooth and the one more primer coat.


In between primer coats, built the track system for the two Slim5 Middle Atlantic racks that will sit in the AV closet. I can only access the closet and the back of the racks by pulling them out four feet from their sitting position. So I created a track stand and then built a removable rollout track that connects to the stand. There's side rails on the outside of the outermost tracks to keep everything in position. These rails go right up against the fixed casters. I added adjustable feet to the removable rollout track to compensate for floor differences since it will sit on carpet.







 
#87 ·
Wow, I remember this from your other thread. I'm a constant lurker, but had to say that it is coming along quite well. I like some of your concepts, especially the screen, which after it's all done, I hope it will perform to your expectations...and if it does, hmmmm....maybe a project for myself to entertain (of course with a hired experienced mudder!). Keeping my eyes glued to this one!
 
#88 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTopDown /forum/post/21172668


Screen wall finished with full skim coat and sanded super smooth. Hopefully, MM will approve. A few coats of primer are next...


Well I'm pumped....sitting here in Atlanta on a hour layover between LA & Memphis. I can't think of anything better to see waiting for me than the Posted effort above. More work done already "on site" means more recreation time on site. (ie: BBQ & Beer)


The effort zo far seems more than worthy. The effort you've expended will reap ethe results we desire... not the whirlwind we want to avoid.


People... the Great Reveal is about to happen. So as stated...I'm really pumped. Being as jaded as I am that's sayin' sumpthin'!
 
#89 ·
Okay, so it looks just like the last screen wall shot. BUT, it does now have three coats of primer on it! We're ready for MM, arriving on Friday!

 
#90 ·
Well, MMan came into town Friday evening and we got started right away. First thing, prep the room to control the air and fumes. Put up a zip wall at the entry and then I was able to borrow an industrial exhaust system which just about sucks the air out of your lungs!


Lastly, we needed to build a 16' long platform so MMan could get to the whole wall. Yes, trash cans, but solid as can be.





 
#91 ·
Screen going up with first coat of many...



 
#92 ·
While MMan worked his magic on the screen, I worked on getting the racks in place and setting up the amps and shelves. Once we get the screen done, we'll concentrate on installing the transducers (all 52) throughout the room. Then we can hook up everything and crank it up.


Racks move back into the AV closet on the temporary rail system I made and sit on a platform.


Partially filled racks in their place:




Five 20A circuits to feed everything in the AV closet. Blue outlets on right provide power remotely from the closet to 1) Family Room TV & Closet, 2) Projector, 3) Rear Subs, and 4) Front Subs. The mounted three pieces of 1/2 EMT conduit vertically for wiring tie-downs.




Racks filled as I can get them now. Still need to add 1U panels with lights and temp gauge at top. Then add a 3U multi-fan panel to draw out air from front of racks since they'll sit behind sealed doors.


Still to go in... Yamaha AVR and Pioneer Plasma Controller for the family room, two DTV HD DVRs, Oppo BR, and XBOX. Still have some blank panel spaces for any future expansion.




Started cleaning up the wiring and getting the connectors all on.





Had enough for today! MMan is sweating me out with the room at a toasty 80 degrees to help speed the cure of the screen wall. Friday ended at 2:30am Saturday morning, so I'm done! Lots to come Sunday and Monday!
 
#93 ·
RedTopDown,


Thanks again for letting me and my son come "test drive" your seats from Roman! (They're excellent!) This is some thread. You have an amazing space coming to life there, and a beautiful home, too. Great work!!!


Come to think of it, I'll probably need another "test drive" of the seats in front of that massive screen in your fully finished room!
 
#94 ·
Steve -- looking great! I'm wondering if you figured out a way to remotely power on/off all those big Europower amps. Are any of your power outlets programatically controlled?


Bryan
 
#95 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger /forum/post/21214750


Steve -- looking great! I'm wondering if you figured out a way to remotely power on/off all those big Europower amps. Are any of your power outlets programatically controlled?


Bryan

Thanks!


Yes I did find a way. I picked up three Xantech 12v triggered outlets from Smarthome



http://www.smarthome.com/81301/Xante...let-AC1/p.aspx


I can either trigger these off of the AVR or my URC MSC-400.
 
#96 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rachurch /forum/post/21212558


RedTopDown,


Thanks again for letting me and my son come "test drive" your seats from Roman! (They're excellent!) This is some thread. You have an amazing space coming to life there, and a beautiful home, too. Great work!!!


Come to think of it, I'll probably need another "test drive" of the seats in front of that massive screen in your fully finished room!

Thank you. Coming along. I have to say I'm pretty fried from the looooong weekend. I'll be sure to put out an invite when the curtain opens!
 
#97 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTopDown /forum/post/21214864


Yes I did find a way. I picked up three Xantech 12v triggered outlets from Smarthome.

Thanks, good find!! Just ordered one for myself...
 
#98 ·
I am anxiously awaiting an update to this thread!


The transducer audio is one not much information is available on. There are mainly two points of views I see on it. One is it is junk from people who have never heard such system installed like this, and obviously MM loves it.


I also am considering a silver fire screen in my house when I get around to redoing the den / future theater room which hopefully is feb or march.
 
#99 ·
Okay, so now that MMan has headed back south to warmer weather and I have a chance to breathe, here's an update of our audio install.


Here are some shots of the actual transducer install process.



Two shots of one of the rear channels with four transducers mounted to the drywall. We added a horizontal batt to enclose the space since the rear subs sit below, and a batt in the back to decrease the depth a bit.







Two shots of one of the surround side channels. MMann's head is seen in the one! Two of the four transducers were mounted on a 3/4" cabinet-grade ply for more bass response. For each side surround channel, a total of eight transducers were used. The slack of the wire was pulled into the adjacent plenum to keep them off the AC line you see.







One more shot of some of the transducers in one of the front channels





We modified the layout a bit in the end and expanded the count of transducers from 52 to 56 with four on order for me to install now that I've learned from the master.


8 - Surround Rear L & R (4 each) - 1 EP2000

16 - Surround L & R (8 each) - 2 EP2000

16 - Right & Left (8 each) - 2 EP2000

8 - High Effects L & R (4 each) - 1 EP2000

8 - Center - 1 EP2000


56 transducers & 7 Berhinger EP2000 Amps


Three of the four channels of the other two EP2000's drive 12 tactile transducers mounted in three rows of four in the floor below each row.


My hands are still trying to recover from the cutting, stripping, and crimping! Here's my approximation of the effort they went through. Yes, I know... Boo Hoo... I wanted to add this all up for my own knowledge anyhow!


There's a 12ga wire from the amp to each group of four transducers to achieve a 2 Ohm load. So that's 14 "supply" lines. Each supply line is then connected to four short leaders going to each of the transducers in the array. There are two crimp connectors that are used to connect the transducer to those leaders.


140 Cuts

28 - 14 supply lines x 2

112 - 56 leaders x 2


140 Sheathing Strips

28 - 14 supply lines x 2

112 - 56 leaders x 2


280 Conducter Strips

56 - 14 supply lines x 4

224 - 56 leaders x 4


112 Connector Crimps

112 - 56 leaders x 2


That doesn't include re-working the channels a bit, connecting the leaders to the supplies, Neutrik connectors, ...


Okay, that's enough whining, right?


I'll put a review of the sound in another post.
 
#100 ·
Okay, now I have to admit that I went into this with no actual visit to an existing home or theater with a transducer-based audio setup. I did make a few calls to some of MMan's clients to get their opinions, but no one was really close to me for a visit. I drank the Kool-Aid based on their feedback and listening to the words and wisdom of MMan.


Let me tell you my thoughts leading up to the install and first listen - trusting but nervous. No matter how much I read up about transducers (little out there I know) and talked to MMan, I still couldn't get my mind around the fact that great sound would come out of a medium known as drywall! All my listening experience has been from standard speaker setups that we all know about.


Some recent online and print reviews of transducer systems (albeit MUCH, MUCH smaller and less planned out) didn't help me when they would say things like "don't expect great quality audio" and "it was just decent audio". Not what I was looking for at all. Now, these systems were nothing like we installed with 56 transducers properly wired to multiple amplifiers for a 2 Ohm load (see previous install post) and all in a design specific to the task.


Okay, enough of the dribble of my fears leading up to flipping the switch on the first amp!


So after finishing up our install on Monday, making some final connections, and having my 17 y/o lug up the four Outlaw subs (two of them monsters), we were ready to fire it up.


We started with the amp on the top which drove two rows of the tactile transducers in the floor. I flipped on the switch on the front of the EP2000 and POWWWWW! A large spark/arc went off inside the amp! That scared us right off the bat. After checking connections and some testing, we quickly determined that there was a defect in the amp itself. One amp DOA!


Needless to say, turning on the next amp was not easy given the first! But we pressed on! One by one we fired up the amps until it sounded like a small jet getting ready for take off in the room. Yes, as many of you know, they are not quiet. That's why they are going behind closed, sealed doors.


We set the gain at 50% on each amp and put in a movie to test everything out. Keep in mind that we have a raw room and I still need to seal the plenums behind for the front, effects, and center channels.


All I can say is that I was truly amazed! Sound was coming from everywhere around us in the room FROM THE DRYWALL. We did a little tweaking here and there, but we have yet to even start to do any calibration. I can't speak enough about how great everything sounds considering the raw nature of the room in its current state. We put in the movie "House of Flying Daggers" to the Echo Game scene to try a good test. If you know that movie and scene, there is very delicate sounds going on from beans rattling in a bowl to earrings tinging as the game begins. Then loud spurts begin as the drums get going and she begins to rap each drum in a repeating sequence. Everything was coming through clear and distinct and from all around us as the movie depicted.


We threw in some more movies, watching half of Rango and then all of Captain America. The dialog was very good, but definitely being affected by the open plenums. Going up to the screen wall you would hear the sound resonating from the drywall and if you got behind the wall you would hear the same sound in the chamber with a lot of echos. So sitting out in front watching the movie, the two sounds front and back were competing against each other and in some ways cancelening the other out. We'll get a big improvement when I close those plenums off.


After MMan departed on Tuesday, the family pulled out some cushions and piled on the floor to watch Green Lantern. I tweaked the channels a bit more as the movie rolled and the sound just kept getting better and better. I can only imagine what it will be like when the room is dampened with carpet, furniture, etc. AND we properly calibrate the whole system.


Finally, I'm not going to sit here and bash any system, traditional or not. Each to his or her own. Just a week ago I went to a highly-regarded local audiophile/HT dealer in town and sat in one of their theaters. The audio system alone was $50K+. No doubt, it sounded wonderful as we watched the Echo Game scene I talked about above. I can't properly compare the two since they have a perfectly treated room and calibrated system and I have a raw room, incomplete install, and uncalibrated system. Even with those major differences and listening to the same test, I'm perfectly happy with my decision to go with transducers. I have no doubt that after equalizing the room and system, the differences will be minute.


I have no doubt that my future guests will be blown away as I was and then starting looking around for the speakers. They will be quite shocked when they can't find any of them sitting in the room or masked behind cloth.


I look forward to updating everyone on sound tests as we move forward.


Thanks MMan. I'm glad I put my faith in you. You delivered!
 
  • Like
Reactions: KBMAN
#101 ·
Things are starting to back up to be done! With everything else to do and limited time available, I paid the extra to have FOSI drill and install the fibers in the 10' x 15' starfield ceiling. While the DIY'er in me was twisting and turning to do it myself, I just gave in after a lot of encouragement from the wife.


So the custom made ceiling had to come in its own custom made crate at just under 16' in length. It was huge looking even sitting on the back of a tractor trailer!




About 750 stars including the constellations. Here's the map layout.

 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top