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#1 ·
JVC RS 45 / Sony HW30 / BenQ W7000 / Epson 5010 mini-shootout


This is not a full review, just some general observations on A/B/C comparison in 2D, 3D, Game lag testing, etc.


The screen used is a 142" 16:9 Dalite 2.8 High Power Cinema Contour, projector distance is 18 feet for all 3 projector. Seating distance is 1.25 SW.


I'll start with game lag time. I used a CRT monitor for the test. All measurement results are an average over 10 samples.

Edit: Adding new lag time for Sony HW30 in 'Gaming' mode.


Ben Q W7000:
  • 50 MS w/ No FI or DI

  • 80 MS with DI on, but FI off.

  • 200 MS with DI on and FI on.

JVC RS 45:
  • 80 MS with no FI

Epson 5010:
  • 80 MS with no FI

Sony HW30:
  • 30 MS with 'Gaming Mode' preset

  • 65 MS with no FI

  • 70-80 MS with FI on low, medium or High


I was surprised to see the FI on the Sony didn't take much of a hit in lag time.








************************************************************ ******


edit: adding Lumens information. Normal = high lamp, Economy = low lamp. I know there are different references for the lamp modes.

Ben Q W7000: ~15 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 1062 Lumens (Normal)

3D mode @ D65 = 894 Lumens (Normal)


** I did not get Economy readings in 2D on the W7000.

JVC RS45: ~ 20 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 927 Lumens (Normal)

2D mode @ D65 = 614 Lumens (Economy)

3D mode @ 8500k = 771 Lumens (Normal)

Sony HW30: ~ 115 hours on the lamp


2D mode @ D65 = 894 Lumens (Normal)

2D mode @ D65 = 559 Lumens (Economy)

3D mode @ 8500k = 793 lumens (Normal)


All 3 projectors were comparatively bright when swapping from projector to projector.

Edit: Added Calibration information.


FYI- this is a 'hit and run' calibration. I would normally spend more time, but I still focused on getting a good gray scale, Gamma @ ~2.2 and REC 709color space as close as it gets with the built in CMS's on the Sony and BenQ.

JVC RS45 Gray Scale - This was fairly easy to get balanced @ 30 IRE and 80 IRE. The tracking was good. I could have tightened up 10-20% with the the individual gamma controls. Flesh tones on the JVC looked great after tuning it to D65.



JVC RS45 Chromacity errors - This is an easy fix with a CMS.



JVC RS45 Color space -



BenQ W7000 Gray Scale - This was also easy to quickly fix using 30 and 80 for cuts and gains. The tracking was nice from 20%->100%



BenQ W7000 Chromacity errors - Ignore the 'before' for green, cyan and magenta, I had the slide order wrong when I was doing the test. These 3 colors were similar in error to red, blue and yellow. This was simple to fix with the W7000's built in color controls.





BenQ W7000 Color space - ignore the stray green and magenta dots. The built in color controls assisted with getting it close to R709.



Sony HW30 Gray Scale - The built in gray scale adjustments are also easy to use with the Sony.



Sony HW30 Chromacity errors - relatively close out of the box. I know it's been said if the RCP is used, it can create artifacts. I only made minor changes to the lightness in a few colors and haven't seen anything yet, but will watch closely.



Sony HW30 Color Space - close to perfect out of the box. minor adjustments made to get it even closer.



Epson 5010 Gray Scale - The built in controls were easy to use and tracked well after setting the levels @ 30 and 80.



Epson 5010 Chromacity errors - close out of the box, just needed some help with Cyan



Epson 5010 Color Space - close to R709 out of the box, blue and cyan needed some adjustments to get it closer.



3D Ghosting Comparison


I picked 3 tough scenes from Despicable Me, Sammy's Adventures and Imax Grand Canyon.

Despicable Me - This scene has been used a few times, the awning of the house against the blue sky and the light pole in the background.

Original Image:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses (both big and small look identical to me). I always thought these had a noticeable color tint compared to the MV3D's and Sony glasses.



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. I could not tune out the ghosting with the MV3D's, but I do prefer the color tint of these glasses on the JVC.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. Nearly identical to the JVC-RS45



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses. The Sony performs well in this scene, the ghosting is almost imperceivable.



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. Also a good performance with a slight preference towards the color tint of the MV3D's.



Epson 5010 with Epson Glasses The Epson handles this movie well overall.



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision Glasses Ghosting performance is excellent, but the projector falls shorts compared to the others in a number of different areas including contrast, color, etc. It does offer a great bang for the buck considering how cheap it is.



Sammy's Adventure - This movie has tons of high contrast scenes like this one. This particular scene has noticeable seperate around the mother's head and left shoulder.

Original:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses



Epson 5010 with Epson glasses



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision glasses




Imax Grand Canyon - The tree in the foreground vs. the sky

Original:



BenQ W7000 with DLP Link glasses



JVC RS45 with JVC glasses



JVC RS45 with Monster Vision 3D glasses.



JVC RS55 with Monster Vision 3D glasses. - same as the RS45



Sony HW30 with Sony glasses



Sony HW30 with Monster Vision 3D glasses



Epson 5010 with Epson glasses - there are 3 glasses brightness settings, I tried low and high. it's hard to tell from the photo, but it's a bit less in high than in low. A very light silhouette at the top of the tree. Performance is similar to the HW30.



Acer 5360 with Nvidia 3D vision glasses




3D performance (glasses comfort, flicker, ghosting, FI in 3D, etc)


To date, I've seen 3D on the JVC RS40, JVC RS45, JVC RS50, Acer 5360 3D DLP, Sony HW30 and the BenQ W7000. I have a large library of 3D bluerays and also a fair amount of 3D SBS material, including console games.


it's a bit frustrating to read a pro review on a projector without screenshots of tough scenes, and the review says 'I didn't see any ghosting, great 3D, etc'. Certain movies like Avatar have little crosstalk based on how the separation was designed, color scheme of foreground and background, etc. Other movies like Despicable Me and Sammy's Adventure are tough on certain displays that are prone to showing the crosstalk. It appears high contrast scenes are the killer, especially orange/red/brown against a green/blue background.


Since there are no standards for reviewing 3D performance, these are just some general observations from a fellow enthusiast who loves 3D in the home theater. Some areas are discussion are the glasses themselves (weight, comfort, color tint, etc), flicker, FI in 3D, crosstalk, etc.


I have a small army of 3D glasses from Xpand, JVC, Sony, Monster Vision (Optoma, both the same), BenQ and Nvidia 3D vision.

Glasses:

JVC Glasses - I had a chance to use the JVC glasses from last year, and the new models as well. IMO, these are identicial in every way in regard to color tint, flicker, 3D ghosting,etc. The only difference is the size. The new glasses are much smaller and lighter as well. I like the physical On/Off switch. I found the new models a bit more comfortable around the nose piece and ear peices didn't pinch as much as the original JVC/Xpand 103's. The frames on the new models are quite small, but they still fit fine with my prescriptions glasses. I can see some of the frame with my peripheral vision, but my brain quickly blocked it out sitting only 1.25 SW from a 142" screen.

BenQ W7000 - The glasses are square and a bit heavy. The arms don't fold back as far as I can tell. There are 2 small coin batteries you have to install first. The lens are large enough where I couldn't see the frame once they were on.

Sony - I have the glasses that shipped with the HW30 and VW95, they are the TDG-PJ1. I like these glasses. Overall they are comfortable, lenses are a nice size and they are relatively light. These are rechargable and have an easy to access on/off button on the top. I also have the kids BR50 glasses. these are excellent for kids under 12 years old. I've had guests with kids use them from 4-12 with no problem. they are durable and also have an easy on/off button. These take a small button battery. Sony is the only company that took into consideration that many of these adult sized glasses just don't fit kids well. The BR50's are perfect for young visitors to the HT.

Nvidia 3D Vision - These are the original 3D glasses that got me hooked on 3D over a year ago with the Acer 5360 3D DLP. These are lightweight and comfortable and worked great with the Nvidia 3D vision PC setup. I used these to play the 3D game "Grid" on the PC (fantastic racing game) in 720P 3D and the 3D vision glasses handled it perfect.

Monster Vision 3D glasses (Optoma) - I save my personal favorite for last. I think I was one of the first to buy these in the beginning of last year in the attempt to find a pair of glasses that didn't have as strong a color shift as the Xpand 103's. The MV3D's are universal glasses that ships with a transmitter than can be 'tuned' to your particular 3D display. On the JVC, it plugs directly in the 3 Pin 3D VESA port. On the Sony, we are forced to use the IR sender/IR Receiver setup which works equally as well as the direct connection. These are very lightweight and comfortable. They feel like a pair of regular sunglasses, with oversized lenses for those who were prescription glasses. My critical comments on these is that the On/Off button is a bit of pain to engage (you have to use your fingernail to get it every time) and they are somewhat fragile compared to the sturdy Xpand 103's, etc. You have to treat them with a little respect.

Color Tint:


This is a highly subjective area, so please take my comments as a personal preference only.

JVC Glasses / Xpand 103's - These have the same color tint. It's the first thing I noticed last year when I got the RS40. It seems to put a greenish/yellow cast on white backgrounds. I know this has been discussed at length (color shift to compensate 8500k, etc).. I get it, but my brain doesn't block out this color shift. Nor does adjusting the color on the projector. I am always aware that I was watching a movie through some color filter.

BenQ W7000 DLP link glasses - These were possibly the most pleasing of all the glasses. The tint, imo, was very neutral and I was running 3D @ D65, not 8500k as is typical on some of the other projectors. It felt like watching 2D colors, but with full 3D effect.

Sony Glasses - I also find the color tint of the Sony glasses relatively neutral and pleasing as well in 3D.

Monster Vision 3D - glasses. My personal favorite. I like the tint on the MV3D's and thought these looked the most natural when used with the HW30.

Nvidia 3D vision - my biggest complaint with these glasses was the strong greenish shift when used with the Acer 3D DLP. I didn't realize how intense it was until I later saw the Xpand 103's, Sony glasses, MV3D's, etc.

Flicker:


Another subjective discussion. I am highly sensitive to refresh rates / flicker. I'd be the guy in your office 10 years ago telling you to change your CRT from 60hz to at least 85hz+ because the lower refresh would drive me to migraines. I can see fluorescent light flickering.. you get the idea.

JVC RS40/RS45/RS50 - the flicker on my first JVC last year in 3D was very noticeable to me, especially coming from the Acer 5360 which had a higher refresh rate in 3D. This seems to settle down as the projector warms up. It's not a dealbreaker, but always something I am aware of and it does cause eye strain for me as I head toward the 2nd 1/2 of a 2 hour movie.

BenQ W7000 - The refresh rate on the 3D DLP is so high, there is absolutely no apparent flicker to my sensitive eyes. It feels like I am watching a 2D movie and the glasses aren't even there.

Sony HW30 - There is a slight flicker on the Sony, but IMO, less so than the JVC. I realize FI in 3D has little to do with flicker, but when FI is engaged in 3D, I find the flicker is less apparent to my eyes.

Acer 5360 - This wasn't part of the comparison, but just for FYI, the inexpensive 720 3D DLP projector is rock solid in this area, same as the W7000.

FI in 3D:


I know some people hate FI. sometimes I do too, especially when it's too intense and creates the soap opera effect. If programmed correctly, it can remove some of the 24p judder in the 3D blurays and create a pleasing 3D viewing experience.

JVC RS40/RS50/RS45 - I was hoping JVC was going to put this in for the new models.

BenQ W7000 - The FI in 3D on the BenQ is subtle, yet effective. Combined with the neutral color tint of the glasses and the lack of flicker, the 3D was very pleasing, especially during fast paced action scenes.

Sony HW30 - Same comments as the W7000. The FI in 3D stays on all the time on my HW30. It's very subtle, but just enough to smooth out the film. I am glad Sony elected to put this feature in 3D for these models.

Ghosting: - Everyone check your weapons at the front door.



Ghosting/Crosstalk discussion has been discussed at length for some time now and is a highly controversial topic. Personally, ghosting stands out for me for several reasons. I am watching 3D on a 142" screen that is putting our nearly 3 times the light than the average HT screen. Ghosting can hide in the shadows, especially when the glasses are knocking down nearly 80% of the light. In addition, I've seen every single 3D movie released several times and know where it's at in each movie.


Obviously ghosting doesn't show up on every scene, and sometimes hard to detect in certain movies like Avatar. This brief comparison was to show how each projector handles the tough scenes.

JVC RS45 - The 3D on the JVC this year is no doubt brighter than the RS40 and RS50. Along with this, it appears the ghosting has intensified as well. I was not able to tune out the ghosting with the MV3D glasses, although I much prefer the color tint on the MV3D's vs the Original/New JVC's & Xpand 103's.

Ben Q W7000 - This is this projectors major strength. Good luck trying to find the ghosting, it's remarkable how well these DLP's handle 3D.

Sony HW30 - HW30 and VW95 owners have been thrilled with the 3D for a good reason. For an LCOS projector, it does exceptionally well at handling tough scenes in 3D. I am guessing this has to do with the faster 240hz panels, but for whatever the reason, there is a noticeable difference in ghosting on the Sony vs the JVC. I am NOT saying it's completely ghost free, but it's very subtle in comparison and find it quite pleasing through my entire 3D library.

Final thoughts on 3D:


these are just my opinons, if yours are different, it's all good.. that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.


JVC RS45 - With the mild flicker, ghosting in the tough scenes and lack of FI in 3D, I would like to see these addressed for next year if possible. I am not sure if I prefer the 3D from the last gen vs. the RS45. The ghosting on my RS40 and RS50 was more subtle, althought it wasn't as bright. This wasn't a problem on my HP screen, so the ghosting I see in the tough scenes on the RS45 are more apparent, likely due to my HP screen brightness.

BenQ W7000 - There was no flicker or ghosting to be seen with BenQ. Add in the FI in 3D, and the 3D on this projector is easy on the eyes. I know much has been brought up about the contrast on this projector, and this is it's weakness in 3D. It looks excellent in most scenes, but on darker scenes, the lack of on/off can be seen vs the JVC and Sony. The BenQ also takes the crown for SBS and 3D gaming over the LCOS, there is no competition there. If the contrast matched the Sony/JVC, it would be a perfect 3D display imo.

Sony HW30 - I like watching 3D Blurays on the Sony. For me, it has a good balance of the positive features of the W7000 and the RS45. The contrast (despite the arguing over #'s vs the JVC) on the Sony is very good. Adding in the features of the FI in 3D and very subtle ghosting (even in the toughest scenes) makes it a pleasing 3D experience for me with frame packed 3D blurays. The Sony has the same issues with SBS and 3D gaming as the JVC, but it's more subtle.


For all things 3D (frame packed, SBS and 3D gaming) the W7000 has a lot of strengths. The Acer 9500 and Mitsubishi 7800 are just getting out there, so i'm sure we'll be seeing the 1080P 3D DLP shootouts soon.

last part, 2D bluray impressions


These impressions are mainly focused on 2D bluray content, I didn't spend much time watching HDTV on the RS45 or W7000. I use the HW30 all the time for HDTV / Racing, etc.


I went through an odd assortment of favorite scenes in 2D. This includes some movies and concerts as well. I went for a mix of dark sci-fi (the Matrix, underworld evolution), CGI / Fast Action (transformers 3), dark stage concerts (shakira, live in Paris, Roy Orbison - Black and white night), a daytime concert (Eric Claptop Crossroads 2010) and a colorful stage concert (Chicago / Earth Wind & Fire, Live at the Greek Theater).


Color: - All 3 projectors looked great in regard to color once they were set as close to D65/Rec709/Gamma 2.2 as my meter permits. I highly recommend picking up an inexpensive meter and a calibration application of your choice. I used Chromapure and like the workflow. The payoff in time is that the projector is going to look as good as it gets. The lamps are constantly changing and the gray scale shifts as the lamp ages.

JVC - Once color calibrated, the JVC color looked excellent. I would like to have been able to fix some of the LSH errors, but it was close enough where it didn't show in any of the content I watched. Skin tones and popping colors in the EWF concert are popping off my HP screen.

BenQ W7000 - The red was hot @ 120% on the projector from 10-90% IRE. Once this was cut down, the color on the W7000 was equally pleasing. DLP colors have a certain glow to them and the W7000 looks good here.

Sony HW30 - The Sony was the closest out of the box, with the color space being almost dead on @ REC 709. It needed minor tweaks to the gray scale to get it to D65. No complaints with the Sony color, all 3 quite competitive in this category.


Focus / Sharpness: - I am sitting relatively close to a 142" screen (1.25 SW). I have projectors with soft lenses. None of these 3 projectors is 'soft' in any regard from this close seating distance. I am as critical with sharpness as I am with the other items that were observed. There were no issues found with these 3 projectors.

JVC - this particular copy of the RS45 I saw was exceptional with the sharpness. The lens in this model has nice even focus from edge to edge / top to bottom.

|BenQ W7000 - This was nice & sharp, especially when viewing the HTPC 1920x1080P desktop. The focus was even the majority of the screen and went out a bit at the edges.

Sony HW30 - I have masted manually focusing this projector, althought it would be nice if it has a motorized focus. Focus is similar to the BenQ W7000. Also appears similarly sharp compared to the other 2 projectors from seating distance.



Contrast / Black level uniformity:

JVC RS 45- The JVC is infamous for it's highly praised native contrast with no DI. Once the brightness / contrast were setup, the JVC looks fantastic with blacks, even on the HP screen. I had a few 'lights out scenes' and I was surprised to see the bright corners. They are going to be more noticeable on the HP screen. My RS50 was perfect in this regard, as was my RS40. I am guessing something was changed in the light path. You'll never see it in regular content thought, so it's not really an issue.

Ben Q W7000 - The BenQ has an DI, but it's not aggressively used. I don't know if the DLP has been identified, but my guess is that it's a DC2 since black level / contrast is similar to the W6000. The projector looks good with plenty of intrascene contrast but when you see the dark scenes like the Matrix, underworld, etc, it could benefit from the ND filter we tested, especially since it's so bright on my HP screen. The black field was relatively uniform.

Sony HW30 - Despite having a lower native contrast than the JVC, the Sony DI is impressive and the first i've seen that works this well. Going back and forth between the dark scenes in Underworld and the Matrix, I enjoyed these scenes on the HW30 as much as I did with the RS45. At the most critically dark scenes, I am seeing a click or 2 difference, not a day/night difference by any means. The Sony has great intra-scene contrast as well. Black level uniformity was the most solid of the 3 projectors.


Motion / FI: - I am using the Matrix and the TR3 clips as a reference. With FI turned off, I didn't see any issues with these 3 projectors with 24 frame BD content.

JVC RS45- motion appears similar to my RS40 and RS50, I never had an issue regarding motion with either projector. CMD3 looks similar this year as it did on last years models. I like FI sometimes, but I think it's a bit too strong on the JVC and would like to have seen it in 3D mode.

BenQ W7000 - the DLP refresh is fast, I didn't see anything objectionable in the fast paced action scenes on the W7000. The FI in 3D works well and is relatively subtle.

Sony HW30 - similar comments on the HW30, nothing outstanding to report. I like the motion low in 3D mode and sometimes in 2D mode (mainly concerts) where there is fast panning of the members on the stage.

Final thoughts -

JVCRS45 - The RS45 reminds of the RS40 and RS50 which is a good thing. 2D color and contrast are excellent and a dark sci-fi fanatic is going to instantly like the JVC. It's hard to believe that only 3 years ago, I paid the same price for a Mitsubishi HC5500 which was on another planet in comparison to the RS45. JVC found a way to bring their native contrast to the under 3k price point which opened the doors for many new folks to appreciate the color and contrast this projector can provide when properly calibrated.


Things I'd like to see changed:
  • black level uniformity. I don't know if this is sample variance, I believe several others have reported it. Neither my RS40 or RS50 had bright corners.
  • 3D ghosting - improvements here would be great.
  • CMS - the RS45 is at the same price point as others that offer full color controls.
  • FI in 3D - hopefully next year. When programmed correctly, I think it makes a valuable addition in most 3D movies.
BenQ W7000 - The BenQ has a sharp, vibrant image. it's main strength is 3D and an flexible lens shift for HP owners. There is also an 1500+ lumen torch mode that looked pretty good with ambient light on the HP. I would watch formula 1 racing with this mode. The contrast is typical of other DLP's in this price range, but not at the same level as the JVC / Sony.


Things I'd like to see changed:
  • better contrast, or at least control of the iris once I figure out how to get into the service menu.
  • Faster sync changes between 2D and 3D, they can take a good 45 seconds to switch sometimes.
  • 3 pin VESA port for 'bring your own' emitter and 3D glasses. I'd like to have seen an option for something other than DLP link glasses.
Sony HW30 - This is a nice all around projector that plays well with dark movies, mixed contrast scenes, fast paced action movies / sports and very good with 3D blurays as well. The color is great out of the box and even better with a minor calibration. I like the FI in 3D mode.


things I'd like to see changed:
  • Allow me to turn on the DI when in 3D mode. I have the HP and would give up some lumens for increase contrast in 3D mode.
  • Motorized lens functions
  • Stronger IR sensor


3/1/2012 Update - I have a replacement W7000 with the 1.0 firmware. Unfortunately the lens is damaged, but can be rigged enough for basic viewing. BenQ will send a replacement once they have the next firmware release in a few weeks.


In the meantime, here is some info for those looking at the various DLP Link glasses that I tested on the W7000.


The W7000 is definitely using the red flash for the DLP Link. The 5360 uses the white flash when it's in DLP Link mode. Here's what's interesting - the different glasses I tried tonight each filter the red flash in a different way. An easy test was Peter Gabriel's black jacket. You can see the red tint without the glasses, but it's completely gone with the ZD201's.

Quick rundown on the glasses:
  • Optoma ZD201 - The best of the 4 glasses. Each lens does an excellent job filtering the red tint.. it's very even and easy on the eyes since both lenses are balanced.

  • True Depth - These are great, comfortable glasses. They work perfect with the W7000 and get their sync the fastest of all the glasses, it's instant on. These are my 2nd pick, I can see a little bit of the red getting through on the right lens.. not bad.. just not as good as the ZD201's.

  • BenQ - The BenQ glasses allow a noticeable amount of the red through the right side lens. it's not obvious as first until you compare it to the ZD201's, then it's hard to ignore.

  • VIP - these are the poorest performing of the group, there is a large amount of red tint that is noticeable in the right eye and it's quite distracting. I wouldn't use these for long if I had the others available to use.


The 3D image is rock solid.. there is no flicker at all. Colors are very good in 3D mode, this is all of the box with FI and DI on in 3D mode. There is no ghosting to be seen.


It's hard to judge the black level at this time since I've mainly been watching 3D movies. My test was the Peter Gabriel concert which had some dark stage scenes, this looked better than I was expecting. It's not going to be mistaken for the RS55 anytime soon, but I would be happy with it for 3D movies since the other benefits of ghost free + great color are there to boost the overall IQ.


I'm looking forward to getting the replacement for this one with the bad lens and possible IQ issue in 2D. I know I am going to get lucky with # 3.




















 
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#1,178 ·
@ Bob - I would recommend the Epson factory glasses at this time. My Monster Vision 3D glasses do sync, but still have trouble getting them to match the performance of the factory glasses.


of all the factory glasses i've tested, the Epson's are some of my favorites in regard to comfort, color tint, etc.
 
#1,179 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner /forum/post/21543984


Deja Vu, what filter are you using?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu /forum/post/21535503


I use two filters threaded together -- a Hoya 81B and a Hoya B+W. A friend has a colorimeter and we then calibrated each projector. I'm never going back, at least with the Epsons. You can buy the filters from on-line sellers or from a good camera store -- they're not very expensive. Basically you're buying a new, better projector for $100.00!

They come in different sizes so you will need to decide which size suites your needs.

You can find info on these filters here.
http://www.hoyafilter.com/pdf/HOYACatalog.pdf
 
#1,180 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman /forum/post/21546399


They come in different sizes so you will need to decide which size suites your needs.

You can find info on these filters here.
http://www.hoyafilter.com/pdf/HOYACatalog.pdf

What are the benefits from using these filters, and in what mode do you use them? does it affect lumen output?
 
#1,181 ·

Quote:
6010 comes with extra lamp, mount, 2 pairs of glasses, projector does anamorphic stretch (2 types I believe), is black and has an extra year of warranty. It is not sold over the internet. Some claim they have paid in the neighbourhood of $3,000 for it.

If the ~$3k price for the 6010 is accurate, then that seems like the better deal, don't you think? The lamp must be worth at least a couple of hundred dollars, the 2 pairs of glasses $150 to $200, the mount $0 (to me...I am shelf mounting), and the black case and anamorphic stretch...PRICELESS! (I really don't want a white projector and I really need anamorphic stretch)
Quote:
Wireless will cost you an extra $200 to $400 if you want it (5010e).

Wireless...for the glasses? Aren't all glasses wireless?
Quote:
@ Bob - I would recommend the Epson factory glasses at this time. My Monster Vision 3D glasses do sync, but still have trouble getting them to match the performance of the factory glasses.


of all the factory glasses i've tested, the Epson's are some of my favorites in regard to comfort, color tint, etc.

That's what I gathered from your previous posts, though you didn't mention it specifically. Thanks for confirming that info, Jason!
 
#1,183 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel /forum/post/21546622


Wireless...for the glasses? Aren't all glasses wireless?

Wireless HDMI so no cable needs to be ran to the projector.

The 5010e has a built in Wireless HDMI and you get one to plug in to your source device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 /forum/post/21546693


Approx $3K for 6010 is way low compared to multiple quotes I have received...

Seems low but a few members here have got them for that low price.

I believe it may be those in Canada are getting the $3K price.


If you can get a 6010 for $3K, I would jump on it quick.
 
#1,184 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman /forum/post/21546710


Wireless HDMI so no cable needs to be ran to the projector.

The 5010e has a built in Wireless HDMI and you get one to plug in to your source device.



Seems low but a few members here have got them for that low price.

I believe it may be those in Canada are getting the $3K price.


If you can get a 6010 for $3K, I would jump on it quick.

I hope you're right. I'm going to the GTA on Friday to see what I can find. I really like the idea of wireless.
 
#1,185 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by luismanrara /forum/post/21546607


What are the benefits from using these filters, and in what mode do you use them? does it affect lumen output?

The filter allows you to run the projector in dynamic mode for full lumen output and with good colour (corrects for the over abundance of green). The Epson, I believe, puts out over 2,000 lumens in dynamic mode in normal (high) lamp mode. The filter does cut the output down to about 1600 lumens, but increases the contrast ratio significantly (at least with the DI engaged).
 
#1,188 ·
I would never trust wireless streaming video for my projector's source. It could be ok to use it from one source, but I would want some stuff to be direct. Even if the implementation is absolutely perfect, how would you know, our sources themselves have so many imperfections that my OCD nature would be like "wow was that the wireless, or was that the source".


....Left-over food for thought...


Reminds me of this old skiing documentary in Canada where the guy never worked, instead he waited for the snow to melt and then picked up lost jewelry in the off-season from the melted snow to pay his skiing for the season. To save money, he would also walk into the food-area of the ski-resort, pretend to be a waiter and say "are you finished with that maa'm", then he would take the food outside and eat it.


Now that is a true dedicated hardcore ski bum.
 
#1,190 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu /forum/post/21546943


The filter allows you to run the projector in dynamic mode for full lumen output and with good colour (corrects for the over abundance of green). The Epson, I believe, puts out over 2,000 lumens in dynamic mode in normal (high) lamp mode. The filter does cut the output down to about 1600 lumens, but increases the contrast ratio significantly (at least with the DI engaged).

The Epson 5010/6010 hits close to 2400 lumens in dynamic mode, brightest settings. It's because of the improvements they made to get bright 3D.
 
#1,191 ·
Interesting thread. I'm (once again) considering replacing or buying a "place holder" 1080p projector for my C3X Lite, which is 3 chip DLP @720p and running through a VP50. I recently bought an Oppo Bd-93 and just feel like I could benefit from going full HD on my 127" X 54" Stewart scope screen. I have had many concerns with the JVC's (reading only, no experience) but, am a bit intrigued by the Epson 6010 for my cave-theater.


I wonder about the difference in image quality and style in the Epson LCD vs. the 3 chip DLP that I still love and is plenty bright - just not full HD. I'm not yet ready for another $15k purchase, so Sim2 is not being considered right now. It would appear the Epson 6010 is as good as the range (Sony 95ES, etc) above it where I originally looked and is brighter. I will continue to read and research and appreciate all the info here as usual.


Last - it's good to see 2 old friends I haven't talked to in a while: Bob and Bob (Sorel and Citation4444) - hi guys, great to see you again! Also sorry to see Jason has left.
 
#1,192 ·
Go demo an LCD somewhere before you decide.

LCD can look very close to near as FILM-LIKE in DARK scenes because the pixel fill or edginess isn't as visible in dark scenes.


In bright scenes, it looks a tad bit more on the TV'ish side, but some prefer it. Even though the pixel fill is not visible in 95% of viewable material from seating distance, it still adds an edge to the image, so you gotta make sure that edge is ok with you when coming from DLP.
 
#1,193 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel /forum/post/21547182


OT - Does Jason Turk still work for AVS? I haven't seen any posts from him in quite some time.

I was wondering the same thing last night. He was my go to guy for projector choice advice in the past. CRAP
 
#1,194 ·
AVS still has people you can call to help you decide.


First eliminate the projectors by things you absolutely desire and need to have. Better 3d? Better blacks?, etc?


If you like darker blacks, then that can pretty much eliminate most DLP's right there unless you go with a Runco or an older Planar or something or one of those.


So then it becomes LCD vs. LCOS. Here it is a personal preference that is going to need some guidance, but you just have to decide what is more important between them for you.
 
#1,195 ·

Quote:
Last - it's good to see 2 old friends I haven't talked to in a while: Bob and Bob (Sorel and Citation4444) - hi guys, great to see you again! Also sorry to see Jason has left.

Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...

Quote:
I wonder about the difference in image quality and style in the Epson LCD vs. the 3 chip DLP that I still love and is plenty bright - just not full HD.

That's the million dollar question...



Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.


But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.


My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first...
. I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?


Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...



Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?
 
#1,196 ·

Quote:
I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs).

You want DLP, not LCD. I don't mean to sound like a smart aleck (really don't), but DLP is DLP like, LCD is LCD like, and LCOS is LCOS like.

Some projectors might sway real slightly to being more DLP-like than others in their tech, but overall it just isn't going to be that significantly close.


Your best bet is a Planar 8150 or Runco LS 3 or LS5 (whatever the models are), or something even more expensive.

Unfortunately there are no LCOS or LCD projectors that are completely DLP-like.


The JVC comes the closest IMO, but in intrascene contrast shots or shots with noise, the image appears more soft. That is probably what you are seeing. DLP handles noise differently inherent to the tech, it almost seems to purposefully be designed to still look good with a lot of noise even if the noise is still visible to the viewer, possibly because the original DLP designs actually had tons of noise in them so they had to work around the issue more than some other TECH designs.
 
#1,197 ·
The only local place I've found has a Sony 30ES and a couple of JVC's. I may go look at the Sony. As for local purchase - while AVS can not sell the Epson 6010 via internet, I am located reasonably close to Mark Haflich (thanks Inter County Connector), so I suppose I could buy one direct if AVS can do it that way. I bought my C3X (and Stewart Screen, Prismasonic lens etc.) from AVS when I first built my theater a few years back and see no reason to change now. ...just saw Bob's message... yes, I realize the tradeoff I'm considering, but also have difficulty in finding an LCD to see. I'm just not ready right now to sink another $15k into a projector and I think the next couple of years would be better served with a place holder (and experiment, as you suggest) before spending the bigger bucks. Sounds like we are in the same situation and considering the same options (Sony 95ES, etc).
 
#1,198 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel /forum/post/21548107


Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...



That's the million dollar question...



Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.


But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.


My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first...
. I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?


Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...



Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?

If you're tempted to try one of these projectors then order from a place that carries several makes and will exchange it for something else if you aren't happy. Nobody can tell you what or what you won't like -- that's entirely up to you. We all have biases etc. that are often unfounded because things change etc. 3D can be pretty amazing (especially the IMAX stuff) and life is short -- if you have an interest and can afford it then give it try.
 
#1,199 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel /forum/post/0


Hi Ray! Great to see you again also...It's been awhile. I guess we are both looking for something to replace our "old reliable" projectors...



That's the million dollar question...



Most people here are enamored by the JVC picture, while I find it ok but nothing exciting. So that leaves me wondering how good or bad the PQ will be from an LCD unit. I have no frame of reference because I can't find anyone who has seen the Epsons who also sees the JVCs the same as I do, so getting a comparison from someone who "thinks like me" is next to impossible. The last time I even looked at LCD (about 5 years ago), the picture quality was pretty good on mid to bright scenes, but the dark scene detail was terrible (think early Sanyo and Panasonic units). My biggest complaint, however, was the degradation of the panels and subsequent shifts in color from one part of the screen to the next, not to mention the horrible DI implementations.


But these new LCDs from Epson have me interested enough to at least consider LCD once again, and since the price is relatively low, it won't be the end of the world if it doesn't pan out. Also, this will give me a low ticket price into the world of 3D.


My other thought is to dive in a little more solidly and just go for the Sony VW95 - but if its 2D performance is the same or similar to JVC's, then I really wouldn't be interested, and Ray, after owning a C3X, you might also be a bit disappointed - maybe not...better go see one first...
. I want something that is more DLP like - popping (but accurate) colors, high ANSI, better depth, razor sharp (as opposed to "film like")...but with "good enough" black levels (15K:1 or better will suffice my needs). I like deep blacks as much as the next guy, but these other picture qualities are just as important to me, maybe more important. I want a lively picture that makes me go "wow" every time I see it, not just a projector that looks great on starfields. Will the latest breed of LCDs fulfill these desires?


Right now I am still tossing around the idea and don't know what I am going to get...if anything. Maybe I will just buy a new lamp for my RS-35 and hope that I get that "new car feeling" all over again...



Random thought - Is there anything from Optoma that should be considered these days?

If you buy an Epson 5010/6010 it will be Russian Roulette what kind of convergence you get and hence sharpness based on Epson owner reports all over AvsForum, seems Epson's quality control re: convergence compared to other brands is lacking.
 
#1,200 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy /forum/post/21548199


You want DLP, not LCD. I don't mean to sound like a smart aleck (really don't), but DLP is DLP like, LCD is LCD like, and LCOS is LCOS like.

Some projectors might sway real slightly to being more DLP-like than others in their tech, but overall it just isn't going to be that significantly close.


Your best bet is a Planar 8150 or Runco LS 3 or LS5 (whatever the models are), or something even more expensive.

Unfortunately there are no LCOS or LCD projectors that are completely DLP-like.


The JVC comes the closest IMO, but in intrascene contrast shots or shots with noise, the image appears more soft. That is probably what you are seeing. DLP handles noise differently inherent to the tech, it almost seems to purposefully be designed to still look good with a lot of noise even if the noise is still visible to the viewer, possibly because the original DLP designs actually had tons of noise in them so they had to work around the issue more than some other TECH designs.

If he's not RBE sensitive, something like the W6000 might light up his eyes enough to not go back to 3 panel tech. He'll definitely need to use the iris to get decent contrast.

You can get them for $1500 now and some places online have a 30 return policy with no limit on lamp time.
 
#1,201 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 /forum/post/21548290


If you buy an Epson 5010/6010 it will be Russian Roulette what kind of convergence you get and hence sharpness based on Epson owner reports all over AvsForum, seems Epson's quality control re: convergence compared to other brands is lacking.

The same can be said for JVC.

Just look in the RS45 & RS55 threads.


I've seen a X70 in person with a green line on the left side & purple on the right because that's how far off the green panel was to the other 2 panels. I also seen an X30 with the red 2 pixels off.

That's 100% JVC's I've seen with "bad" convergence. Does this mean they are all this way? Probably not. May be Maganoia HiFi gets bad units.


Also, did projectorreviews get a bad JVC unit or is there an issue with blue on the RS45?


Most projectors are now made in China and we need to face that they aren't doing a thorough final inspection any more & assembly tolerances appear to be broader. The risk of someone sending back a projector for bad convergence is low & doing an exchange is still cheaper to the manufacturer than checking each projector.


The JVC and 5010/6010 do have pixel alignment.

The 5010/6010 allows movements in the 1/4 pixels.


Besides convergence, there are other issues with this years projectors as well.

You just need to pick your poison and get one based on first hand facts & reports.



Unless someone wants to take the time and create a spreadsheet/thread tracking convergence issues with a specific model or brand and provide sources, you should prefix your statements with IMO or someone may believe it's a fact.



Kind of like how they tracked bulb issues with the past Epson's or the JVC lamps dimming prematurely. This helps validate urban legends in to fact.
 
#1,202 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan /forum/post/0



I was wondering the same thing last night. He was my go to guy for projector choice advice in the past. CRAP

I have nothing but positive things to say about Jason but Mark has done a great job filling his shoes as my "go to" guy for purchases. I recently spoke with Mike over the holidays and he answered his phone after hours on a holiday so I'd say you have plenty of nice people to work with on a purchase
 
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