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Transformers: Dark of the Moon comparison *PIX* and *VID*

18K views 119 replies 40 participants last post by  XxDeadlyxX 
#1 ·
#27 ·

Quote:
Corporations will never pay taxes.


If you tax a corporation, they'll simply pass those taxes on in the prices of their product or services for consumers/businesses. We'll simply end up paying their taxes for them.


The correct way to deal with this is likely through heavy income taxes on those earning greater than $250,000/year (and I'd posit, additional tiers at $100,000 and $1,000,000), and ending the tax loopholes on income derived from savings/investments (those that Warren Buffet has talked about recently).

Corporations do pay taxes. They pass some of the taxes on to the consumer, but unless there is inelastic demand for their product, they still end up paying some taxes. Of course, paying taxes means that there is less money with which to employ people and less money for stockholders. So I guess in a sense the consumer (who is also the employer and stockholder) still hurts from corporate taxes.


To keep this on topic, I am looking forward to seeing this disk for the pq and aq alone. I just hope the story is serviceable enough not to distract too much from the audio and video spectacle.
 
#28 ·
Xylon, you think you can capture some up close faces?


There also a scene where the bird transformer transforms in the garden. Very detailed scene with amazing high frequency information. Its transfers like these that make me question how much of difference will 4K be
 
#30 ·
Marvel at the amazing disappearing and reappearing facial blemishes of Shia LaBeouf.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)







































I posted in the main discussion thread mocking Michael Bay for saying the 3D version was "remastered" but I take it back.


I was hoping this release would correct the poor horizontal resolution on certain effects shots . It is a little better on some scenes (still worse than Vudu) but for the most part they just lowered it even more, along with vertical. On the plus side, there's no reason to worry about passive 3DTVs having lowered resolution when it's already been nuked at the source.


Weird thing I noticed: the 3D movie gets dimmer the longer it goes on. I exported the maximum luma values of every frame into a CSV and graphed it using Veusz (which was the only program I could find that would plot a graph from a data set of 220k values).

Code:
Code:
DirectShowSource("Y:\\BDMV\\STREAM\\00800.m2ts",audio=false)
WriteFile("Dark of the Moon luma.csv", "current_frame", """ "," """, "YPlaneMax")



Again, these are the maximums for each frame, not averages. It starts off with brightness slightly clamped but gets crazy low later on.




The last frame with brightness values that reach anywhere close to normal levels is at 42:08. At a point later in the movie, even frames that are almost entirely composed of flashes, sparks, and explosions top out at 150 on the 16-235 scale.

 
#31 ·
Wow what is with that horrible green & teal look on the 3D version? The 2D looks much better - glad I am sticking to the 2D version. Look at the shot in the building with the cars where Carly and her boss works - the 3D looks horrid.


And yes WTF is up with the brightness of the later part of the 3D movie? It looks absolutely terrible. So much for the 3D version being the 'better' version. Put those 3D glasses on and you can probably hardly see the damn movie.
 
#32 ·
Is the 2D disc contained in the set the same as was previously released? I doubt Paramount would bother with a remaster, but I'm I just want to be sure. I held off on buying the original pressing only because I'm a special features lover.
 
#33 ·
That brightness issue is pretty sad. It's bad enough we have to wear glasses that make the movies darker, and now they're throwing this on top of it?
 
#36 ·
Response directly from the man himself via his official forums:


The reason some 3D TV color on some systems might not look perfect? Well because there is no standards in 3D. It sounds stupid doesn't it. When we color transfer we spend weeks on a single format. Six weeks on the feature, then weeks additional on DVD, then weeks more on 3D. Every single shot might have brightness windows color moves high light adds. My colors on almost every one of my films have had almost perfect color space scores. I'm the guy who did the first - film to digital - digital transfer release on a movie - Bad Boys 2. I know color and telecine equipment better then almost any director out there. But when I started doing my 3D transfer with the most talented color telecine expert in the world, my buddy Stephan. He told me 3D is ****ed. There is no standard to the equipment it is the wild west right now. So if it looks bad it's your product. We aimed color space for the most the equipment that has the biggest market share. In our room it looked perfect. So I'm sorry but it's your equipment. Tell the business to standardize and it will all look perfect in the future. Sorry.


Michael
 
#37 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtationx /forum/post/0


Response directly from the man himself via his official forums:


The reason some 3D TV color on some systems might not look perfect? Well because there is no standards in 3D. It sounds stupid doesn't it. When we color transfer we spend weeks on a single format. Six weeks on the feature, then weeks additional on DVD, then weeks more on 3D. Every single shot might have brightness windows color moves high light adds. My colors on almost every one of my films have had almost perfect color space scores. I'm the guy who did the first - film to digital - digital transfer release on a movie - Bad Boys 2. I know color and telecine equipment better then almost any director out there. But when I started doing my 3D transfer with the most talented color telecine expert in the world, my buddy Stephan. He told me 3D is ****ed. There is no standard to the equipment it is the wild west right now. So if it looks bad it's your product. We aimed color space for the most the equipment that has the biggest market share. In our room it looked perfect. So I'm sorry but it's your equipment. Tell the business to standardize and it will all look perfect in the future. Sorry.


Michael

I trust him
 
#38 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brad /forum/post/21589789


Is the 2D disc contained in the set the same as was previously released?

Of course.


Nice to have a response from Mr. Bay, and I think Joe Kane has also complained about a lack of calibration standards for 3D. That would explain inconsistency when compared to other movies, but when compared to itself? The Paramount logo at the end of the film is around half as bright as the one at the start. Granted, they aren't identical to begin with, but that's a very wide variation.
 
#40 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 /forum/post/21593121


I trust him

I can feel the sarcasm oozing out of your post



At least Peter Jackson didn't come out with such a radical statement regarding LOTR Fellowship EE, telling everyone else that they were wrong, if he had he may have lost respect over it, at least with HT enthusiasts.


I actually equate this 3D Dark of the Moon release closely to that release, something just doesn't feel right about the transfer - they even look similar. Too much.... teal.....


And brightness changing through the movie? Yeh Mr Bay, I'm sure you intended for that...
 
#41 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX /forum/post/21593735


I can feel the sarcasm oozing out of your post



At least Peter Jackson didn't come out with such a radical statement regarding LOTR Fellowship EE, telling everyone else that they were wrong, if he had he may have lost respect over it, at least with HT enthusiasts.


I actually equate this 3D Dark of the Moon release closely to that release, something just doesn't feel right about the transfer - they even look similar. Too much.... teal.....


And brightness changing through the movie? Yeh Mr Bay, I'm sure you intended for that...

I was and am, 100% serious. The guy knows his stuff
 
#44 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 /forum/post/21594218


He did, did you read his reasons? Looking at a 2d image of a 3d movie timed for 3d sets could be something to do with it

Ok so if we believe him about the color grading part of it, what about the brightness change? In the first part of the movie, the 3D version actually looks brighter than the 2D release.


Yet as the movie progresses, towards the end the 3D becomes uncomfortably dim - just look at the shots of carly at the end or the space shot of Cybertron....


I can hardly even make out the fine details of Cybertron in that shot it is so crushed - I assume if you were watching in 3D it would be worse due to further brightness loss....
 
#45 ·
Without being familiar with the equipment being used to come to these conclusions, I wanted to ask if the display has been calibrated separately

for 3D specifically. In other words, have you calibrated your projector through

the actual glasses you are using, and have separate color, gamma and grayscale

for 3D content.


Our final 3D settings on our projector when calibrated through the RealD glasses we use are significantly different from the 2D calibration. Each set of glasses adds its own tint to what you are seeing.


I just watched this in 3D the other day and didn't notice any odd green/teal coloring to any of the images. When this was being worked on, I wouldn't be surprised if the colors were adjusted to match a specific set of hardware and glasses being used by their team. Using images directly from a 3D screen, without those images being taken/filtered through the glasses first, is not an accurate representation of what the director intended us to see, as they know very well it's the image we see adjusted by the glasses that is important.


Please don't take this as an attack, as you may have already done so and these images were taken correctly through actual glasses and a projector color corrected through those 3D glasses during calibration. However, consider that all glasses are different, and add their own tint. Let alone as Bay mentioned the variance in hardware and no standards to follow. So I can very well see how it's impossible to get any one result that is perfect for all, as even if every display was identical, you would still have the variance in color/tint change due to various glasses. If their team created this 3D master using RealD to achieve ideal settings, I don't see how this same image being

viewed through a set of different glasses could look correct as well. At least that seems to make sense.


We auditioned many options during the process (Xpand, Monster, RealD) and I can tell you they do not look the same and

all add their own tint to the image. Once a final set of glasses is chosen, the projector needs a dedicated calibration setting done through those glasses to hit the proper standard. And once the display was calibrated through them, then the image looked quite accurate in terms of color.


Since we use RealD and that is very common in the professional world, maybe it's possible we are not seeing the color issues due to us using similar glasses and calibrated hardware. Or it could be something else I am not considering. But I definitely can agree with Bay's statement on there being absolutely no standard.


As for the brightness issue, I'm going to have to go back and watch for that again and see if I can find time to take some measurements myself. I did not notice anything resembling a dim image during the film, but then again we are using a pretty powerful projector with several thousand lumens, so it may be obscured. I would have to take a measurement to see when I have some time.
 
#46 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyxX /forum/post/21594247


Ok so if we believe him about the color grading part of it, what about the brightness change? In the first part of the movie, the 3D version actually looks brighter than the 2D release.


Yet as the movie progresses, towards the end the 3D becomes uncomfortably dim - just look at the shots of carly at the end or the space shot of Cybertron....


I can hardly even make out the fine details of Cybertron in that shot it is so crushed - I assume if you were watching in 3D it would be worse due to further brightness loss....

I am on the side of the man who has never signed off on a bad HD master
 
#47 ·
I wouldn't jump on Michael Bay quite yet, as there may be a communication issue here.


Michael Bay is responding to complaints that a poster made that stated only that the colors were off/"terrible" compared to the 2D version. (Though Brightness was included in the subject of the thread, it was not mentioned in the original post itself.) Thus, it's possible that Bay has not followed the link to this thread and/or has no knowledge of the progressively diminishing brightness present on retail 3D Blu-rays. It's possible that Bay has only approved of what he saw in-house, which may have slight saturation and brightness adjustments compared to the 2D disc, but in no way matches what was rendered to retail copies.


In my opinion, if Xylon's screenshots hold true, this is clearly a screw-up. Even though 3D has no standard, it is fairly obvious that, when authoring a 3D version, you are supposed to make it brighter than the 2D version to compensate for the glasses. Never, ever should it end up being dimmer, much less grow further so throughout the feature.
 
#48 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEguy /forum/post/21594352


In my opinion, if Xylon's screenshots hold true, this is clearly a screw-up. Even though 3D has no standard, it is fairly obvious that, when authoring a 3D version, you are supposed to make it brighter than the 2D version to compensate for the glasses. Never, ever should it end up being dimmer, much less grow further so throughout the feature.

this.


The fact it is brighter than the 2D at the start, which is what I assume was the intention, color grading aside, yet towards the end is far far dimmer than the 2D, shows someone somewhere along the chain screwed up. Looks like that person took the meaning of the title Dark of the Moon a little too seriously



Anyone look at the screenshots if you don't believe me, doesn't matter if you are looking at them on a calibrated display or not, it is plain as day to see. Or dark as night.....



As you say, Michael Bay may not even be aware of this if he hasn't viewed the retail 3D disc but only what he approved beforehand.


One correction though, saying you are supposed to make the 3D transfer brighter isn't necessarily true, since current 3D tech makes things darker than they should and you do need to future-proof somewhat, and there's nothing wrong with having the transfer the same brightness as the 2D like many BD 3D's do, but darker? no way.
 
#49 ·
msgohan,


The ones on the right look less contrasty and filtered. Are you sure that the pics on the left isn't from the 3D version?
 
#51 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Bay /forum/post/0


I know color and telecine equipment better then almost any director out there.

Ah, the patented Michael Bay humility. Apparently, he knows as much about basic English grammar as he does about coherent storytelling.
 
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