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2012 models are disappointing

13K views 113 replies 44 participants last post by  Strider- 
#1 ·
From everything I've read, it looks like the 2012 models of receivers are a big disappointment. In most cases there's no real difference between 2011 and 2012 models. It seems like all that's happened is the model numbers and price were pushed up a little. I've read about Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo. Pretty much all the major brands.


I was hoping higher end audyssey worked it's way into lower models. It doesn't look like it.


I was hoping 9.2 and higher worked down into lower end models. Nope.


I was hoping pre-outs worked their way into lower end models. Nope.


I was hoping mcacc and/or ypao added sub eq. Nope.


It seems like TVs have better 2012 models, but not AV equipment.
 
#77 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn /forum/post/21817708


You're in way over your head here. Unless you have a specific point to make, please avoid making a broad statement like an entire post is incorrect.

After seeing your economic theories and your understanding of international commerce, I'm quite sure I'm not the one in over my head.


How many people need to correct you before you give it some thought?
 
#78 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn /forum/post/21817668


First off, how can the currencise be stable relative to each other and be unstable relative to the USD when China effectively pegs their currecy to the USD?

Hmmm...


Try this link and it will illustrate the basic point...

Just input the (2) respective currencies.
http://www.x-rates.com/


Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..

For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..

Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..


Quote:
Second, your sceanrio of what causes currencies to appreciate only exists in textbooks. In reality, central bank interventions have a far greater impact on currency values than deficits and surpluses do. How else do you think it's possible for countries to continually run deficits or surpluses year after year? If central banks didn't intervene, currency values would float to a point where deficits and surplusses would disappear.


Ayway, without currency intervention, the only factor that would influence a currencies value is the differece between net investment inflows and the current account deficit. All those other things may have an indirect long-term effect on this, but they don't have any direct effect.

As I already posted previously deficit spending is not always negative it depends upon this invetsment and what additional paybacks it delivers...

Regarding countries that have real fiscal financial management, checkout Canada & Germany..

Quote:
I have news for you, it's not just the US printing money. Everyone is printing.

As posted above printing money is not bad in itself, unless the issuing country has no real collateral/assets behind their currency..

This is my last post about economics, if you have more questions for this subject PM me..

For your info I actually have (3 degrees) including a major in economics so we know what we are talking about not just blasting hot air...


Just my $0.02...
 
#79 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code /forum/post/21818164


Hmmm...


Try this link and it will illustrate the basic point...

Just input the (2) respective currencies.
http://www.x-rates.com/


Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..

For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..

Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..





As I already posted previously deficit spending is not always negative it depends upon this invetsment and what additional paybacks it delivers...

Regarding countries that have real fiscal financial management, checkout Canada & Germany..




As posted above printing money is not bad in itself, unless the issuing country has no real collateral/assets behind their currency..

This is my last post about economics, if you have more questions for this subject PM me..

For your info I actually have (3 degrees) including a major in economics so we know what we are talking about not just blasting hot air...


Just my $0.02...

I suspect based on your posting history that you have both the degree and extensive practical real world experience with this. But maybe you're in over your head too.
 
#80 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD /forum/post/21818010


I think these latest generation of receivers are incredible for the price. You get quite a bit for around $500.00 - ie. etherNET/Network connectivity, Streaming, USB/iPod, InterNet, control Apps access (AirPlay, etc.,.,..), firmware updates via-Internet, Audyssey (even though it's only MultiEQ XT, or only 7.1), good power (90W per/chan for example), 3D compatible, all the latest popular sound processing (DSP) and more.


I have a new Denon AVR-2112CI and I'm totally impressed. The only thing missing I'd want are pre-OUT's, but that's not a deal closer. I have other (high-end) system.


Just go back like 10 years and compare features and price to these (comparable) current AVR products.

absolutely!!
 
#81 ·
The truth is that there is no disappointment - this is predictable.


The AVR manufacturers release old wine in new bottles every 12 months and expect the world to collapse in adoration. In fact, they view their own business as a dying carcass - one that they refuse to invest in or progress with. This "new 2012 model" stuff is a hoax to try and fool consumers (or as one of them called it elsewhere on this forum "maintain price points".


No, nothing in the "new" product is going to boggle your mind. Get used to it. And beware that there are industry folks here masquerading as consumers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest /forum/post/21811466


This mass market avr producers are hitting new lows, they must think todays teen to mid twentys are apple ear bud morons. No one with any brains would buy these gutless avrs at these msrp prices, what are they getting for there money. Its not pure clean amp power, I bet these lowend units won't pump out more than 20 watts x 5 on the test bench..

Theres someone who knows what's up. You're not lying about the clean power. Last review I read of Denon...sorry "Marantz" NR1602 said that it claimed 50 Watt per channel but in fact on the test bench was topping out at 23 clean watts per channel x 5. Beyond that was basically damaging your speakers.


No surprise then that these products cant hold their price and we get an annual charade of "new" releases of old product in a futile attempt to do so.
 
#82 ·
Also, be aware that there are folks here that thinks that AVR manufacturer's should employ IT engineers, software developers as well as acoustical engineers. Develop new and innovative products every year, have 120w of clean power in 7 channels, fit in their tiny little closed entertainment center and all for under $500 while pushing a product that is for a niche market. And when there is a little bug, come on this forum and bash the product like hell. All the while some companies gives us products like Win**ws Millenium and Vista but it's ok 'cause it's a complicated affair after all.


If some of us think that the "I" company releases a brand spanking new product every 2 years that is 100% more innovative than the previous...sit down and really think about it. How much more innovative then the previous is it really? the color of the interface? a new app? the size of the case? It's marketing, not innovation.


Also, nobody cares to notice that 30 years or so ago and ,according to the folks who owned them, when amps were at their best, that's all they did is amplify. As they started incorporating new tech at the demand of consumers, well something as to give. The economical reality of today is not the same as then. There's the word "inflate" in inflation.


I for one am, quite happy with my Pio and Denon. They serve their purpose well.


Having said that, I'm done with this topic. No point of continuing this debate as it will resolve nothing, time to move on to new stuff



cheers
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jproy13 /forum/post/21819628


Also, be aware that there are folks here that thinks that AVR manufacturer's should employ IT engineers, software developers as well as acoustical engineers. Develop new and innovative products every year, have 120w of clean power in 7 channels, fit in their tiny little closed entertainment center and all for under $500 while pushing a product that is for a niche market. And when there is a little bug, come on this forum and bash the product like hell. All the while some companies gives us products like Win**ws Millenium and Vista but it's ok 'cause it's a complicated affair after all.


If some of us think that the "I" company releases a brand spanking new product every 2 years that is 100% more innovative than the previous...sit down and really think about it. How much more innovative then the previous is it really? the color of the interface? a new app? the size of the case? It's marketing, not innovation.


Also, nobody cares to notice that 30 years or so ago and ,according to the folks who owned them, when amps were at their best, that's all they did is amplify. As they started incorporating new tech at the demand of consumers, well something as to give. The economical reality of today is not the same as then. There's the word "inflate" in inflation.


I for one am, quite happy with my Pio and Denon. They serve their purpose well.


Having said that, I'm done with this topic. No point of continuing this debate as it will resolve nothing, time to move on to new stuff



cheers

+1, very well said
 
#84 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma /forum/post/21818141


After seeing your economic theories and your understanding of international commerce, I'm quite sure I'm not the one in over my head.


How many people need to correct you before you give it some thought?

Anyone who suggest getting an economics book to understand how economics is working in todays world hasn't a clue.


Give me one example where someone has corrected me? Just one.
 
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code /forum/post/21818164


Regarding China, you need to understand their culture..

For the last several years, Hong Kong has been their primary financial center and export shipping port.. The Hong Kong $ is pegged to the US$, however within China they use a difference currency RMB..

Additionally, China politically has been sheltering their exports to drive their economy but this is why certain products are actually quite expensive within China domestically compared to their exports..

Seriously?

You think the CNY has not been pegged to USD?

The CNY being effectively pegged to the USD has probably been the biggest trade issue between the US and China for the past decade. Although technically it's been a slowly moving peg for the last few years.


Here's a link from your own post that shows it's in a well controlled trading band.
http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/graph120.html
 
#89 ·
Go for a 2009 Onkyo 3007/5007 or Denon 4311.


Unless you have to have the Yamaha Z11.
 
#91 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman07 /forum/post/21833231


This seems like it would be a great thread to find a comprehensive matrix of 2012 products, yet I've only heard a few generalities by brand...and lots of economics talk...

People like to think they're always right, and have condescending attitudes against others while doing so. I can do the same and talk about 2012 models at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma /forum/post/21809082


If there are compelling new capabilities developed that aren't being offered, I haven't seen them. Complaining that the vendors won't offer premium features like XT32 in less expensive units is being unrealistic, at least until XT64 (or whatever) is available. Why would a vendor cannibalize it's own premium market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard /forum/post/21808055


When/if the 2012 models don't sell, the companies will be forced to re-evaluate.


It doesn't look like this is the year of
 
#92 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard /forum/post/0



People like to think they're always right, and have condescending attitudes against others while doing so. I can do the same and talk about 2012 models at the same time.


"Onkyo Announces TX-NR 717 and TX-NR 818 Mid-range Receivers" 818 has XT32 included, MSRP $1199. Pre-order prices and sales will most likely bring it to $999 or less, as seen with previous 8xx models.


I guess Onkyo didn't take the "unrealistic" advice of the "economics experts" here. Silly competition forcing others to innovate or to provide a similar product at the same price point....

I've stayed away from this thread due to all of the economics talk, but I will say that Onkyo providing so many features at such a low price point is a catch 22. While they do offer the most features per dollar, their build quality has taken a huge hit in the process. Avr's are just like anything wlse, you get what you pay for in terms of quality. It's not a mystery how Onkyo has been able to lower their price point, they're just using cheaper internals, which is fine as long as build quality doesn't take a huge hit. In Onkyo's case, it certainly has. The old saying if it sounds to good to he true, it probably is, applies in this case. The Onkyo's look great on paper, and offer robust features and sound quality when working properly. But if your holding your breath everytime you power the thing up, is it really worth it?
 
#93 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legends /forum/post/21832445


Shhh, don't tell anyone but, try out Emotiva.

Thanks, this thread needed a dose of levity.
 
#94 ·
^^^


lol.... yea, that would be a disappointing 2007 unit...
 
#96 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 /forum/post/21834519


Excellent news! I have been wanting XT32 for the longest. If the 818 sells for a similar price as the 809 then I will have one for sure.

Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.
 
#97 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous /forum/post/21834568


Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.

I haven't seen as many complaints on the 09 series as I did on the 06 07 and 08 series. I have read horror stoires about there customer service so that does worry me a bit. I wouldn't touch the 08 series with all the problems they had with it. I won't say that I trust Onkyo now but I would probably go ahead and take a chance since the 09 series didn't get as hot and I didn't hear as many complaints about it as the previous 3 series. I will wait a couple months before I buy one just to see if there are any major issues and to get a sale price. If it sells for the same price as the 809 there is no way I could turn down XT32 for that price no matter how iffy I am about their customer service and quality control. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me. I still would rather have the 4311 but I doubt it will be around for 650 anytime soon so I will probably just settle for the Onkyo. I am wondering if the 3313 will have XT32 because I really like my 3311 and would like to stay Denon if possible. All I know is that my next receiver will have XT32.
 
#98 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous /forum/post/21834568


Hopefully they have addressed their piss poor quality control on their new receivers. I would never give onkyo time of day anymore based on my own experience with them.

I've had multiple Onkyo receivers in the past, and each year is different in quality I've noticed. I had the 606 which was a hot mess (literally), and had to send it in to get warranty repaired. It worked fine afterwards. I had the 608 and it was flawless.


If I didn't already have the 4311, I would have definitely taken the chance on the 818.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 /forum/post/21834891


I am wondering if the 3313 will have XT32 because I really like my 3311 and would like to stay Denon if possible. All I know is that my next receiver will have XT32.

If they are around the same price, I would def go Denon. I like them the most out of all AVR makers.
 
#100 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn /forum/post/21805109


From everything I've read, it looks like the 2012 models of receivers are a big disappointment. In most cases there's no real difference between 2011 and 2012 models. It seems like all that's happened is the model numbers and price were pushed up a little. I've read about Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo. Pretty much all the major brands.


I was hoping higher end audyssey worked it's way into lower models. It doesn't look like it.


I was hoping 9.2 and higher worked down into lower end models. Nope.


I was hoping pre-outs worked their way into lower end models. Nope.


I was hoping mcacc and/or ypao added sub eq. Nope.


It seems like TVs have better 2012 models, but not AV equipment.

First of all, it's only March. The higher-end receiver models haven't been announced yet. They usually come a bit later in the year.


Secondly, I don't know what you expect. Lower end models sell for $300 to $500. For $500 (at the high-end of the "low end"), you generally get from five to nine channels of 50 to 100 watts of sound per channel and all kinds of digital processing for both audio and video and usually web connectivity wtih all kinds of services. That's very inexpensive. Nine channels of amps for $500? That's $55 per channel.


The problem is that everyone's been spoiled by low prices enabled by cheap Chinese labor costs.


Back in 1980, I paid around $400 for a good quality 2-channel preamp. (Apt-Holman). That's $1105 in 2012 dollars and that's just for a preamp, obviously without any web connectivity, services or digital processing and it was only 2-channel.


I don't know why you expect high-end features in low-end receivers. That's why they have high(er)-end receivers. Personally, I'd wish they'd take half the crap features OUT of the models and prioritize on high quality sound.
 
#101 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by guisar /forum/post/21816946


Meaning very few models have them.

Preamp outs are really not needed at the low end. People who buy the low end NEVER add external amps (aside from a powered subwoofer). But IMO, they're mandatory at the high end. I'm not noticing preamp outs going away at the higher end, but I am noticing multichannel preamp inputs going away, but that makes sense since most BR players and other devices are eliminating them.


And the receiver manufacturers have supported composite and component video much longer than I thought they would. IMO, at this point, anything more than one composite, one component, and one s-video (although they're mostly already gone anyway) is overkill. How many people who are buying a new receiver have more than one video device that's not HDMI?


It's time to start simplifying these receivers and cleaning up the back panels and related circuitry. Most people have nothing more than an HDMI BD player and one or two game machines these days. It's only the real audio/videophiles who have turntables, analog tape, laserdisc and other non-HDMI devices.
 
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