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Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on Current DVD Recorders

175K views 584 replies 127 participants last post by  MichaelLAX 
#1 ·
In an effort to possibly save some repetition in posts, and avoid confusion, this seems to be a question that pops up once a week or so.


No current DVD recorder, available in the American market at least, will record high definition content IN HIGH DEFINITION RESOLUTION. DVD recorders can only record in standard definition which is 480i. You cannot record in 480p, 720p, 1080i or 1080p.


You CAN record hi definition content from a sat box or STB, depending on the hookup, but at best it will be in 480i resolution. The recordings should still be very good, they just won't be in high definition. Your STB or source signal has to be able to transmit the hi-def content via component, S video or composite- -not all do. NOTE--If you have a Directv Hi def box (and this may apply to other STBs) you need to manually SET the Directv box to output at 480i OR YOU WILL NOT GET A SIGNAL WHEN YOU HOOK IT UP TO A DVD RECORDER! Until the HD format wars are resolved and we start seeing some HD-DVD players, HD-DVD recorders are still a ways off.


Even if you have a hi-def DVR like a Directivo, while the Directivo will store the high def signal to its hard drive, so you can watch in high definition from your Directivo or Dish hard drive, it is downconverted to 480i when outputted to a DVD recorder for archiving(and it does not even stay in the digital domain, as it has to be converted to analog, then back to digital).


The only current way to actually record in hi-def resolution, other than a hi-def STB hard drive, is via a D-VHS recorder.



AUDIO ADDENDUM: No current DVD recorders can record a Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS multichannel digital signal either. Recorders have digital OUTPUTS (usually optical, some coaxial), but only record in Dolby Digital 2.0 or uncompressed PCM digital stereo audio. No standalone DVD recorders have digital audio inputs or allow recording of a 5.1 signal at this time. PCM audio is uncompressed,unlike DD, and is far superior than DD 2.0 for sound quality, especially for music. Beware the cheap DVD recorder brands, as many only have mono tuners and won't even record in stereo.
 
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#502 ·
^ Just to be sure, I think you mean: "No thanks, Panasonic."



What you have just quoted from my post I never actually said. I was mocking Panasonic's perspective, not my own.
 
#503 ·
^^^ That's now I took it, as you were being sarcastic


I'm going to have a hard time replacing my 46" HDTV when it's time. Being a '08?? model it has all the inputs: 4 HDMI, 2 Components, 3 composite(including 2 with S-video) and of course RF.

Looking at larger TVs it seems 2-4 HDMIs are the norm and one component/composite input


Currently I use EVERY input on my TV including a 4 in 1 out composite switcher and 4 in 1 out HDMI switcher, I'll really miss the inputs on my TV when the times comes(I'd really like a 52-54" but have to decide if I want to lose all the features(including the nice digital TVGOS) on my current Sony)
 
#504 ·
I guess I'm the exception. My plasma and AVR are almost 4 yr old and with the exception of the Wii, everything I have in the "rack" is attached via HDMI.
 
#505 ·
I think this thread needs to be unstuck. It makes no sense. DVD has never provided HD resolution. hDVD didn't even gain any popularity.


We have Blu-ray writers for computers now and can burn discs in high resolution all day long. Why are we talking about DVD and HD in the same context?
 
#507 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicLogic /forum/post/22000761


I think this thread needs to be unstuck. It makes no sense. DVD has never provided HD resolution. hDVD didn't even gain any popularity.

This thread, started in late 2005, predates the official release of BR in 2006. It was started to answer the repeatedly asked question about whether the existing market of DVD recorders (home units, some with combo-VHS; video/audio in, pop in a blank DVD, push RECORD) would be updated and released to work with the new HD technology; and of course the answer at that time was NO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicLogic /forum/post/22000761


We have Blu-ray writers for computers now and can burn discs in high resolution all day long. Why are we talking about DVD and HD in the same context?

The question remains relevant today, if you just update its terminology to replace the term "DVD Recorders" with "home high-definition disc recorders."


There continues to be no home BR Recorder, in the sense that there was a DVD Recorder back in 2005: that is, a box that connects to component and/or HDMI video IN (and audio IN), pop in a blank BR disk and push one button to record.


The market is just not there... Downloading and now streaming have moved into the "disc-less" stage. If you have not noticed, the major motion picture distributors have been facing a financial crisis over the loss of disc revenues, which have not been made up by the gain in new technological distribution revenues.


So, even after all these years: "Attn Newbies: You Cannot Record in Hi-Def Resolution on any form of 'one-button' home disc Recorders."


AND, yes, burning a BR disc on your computer can be an "all day long" process (digitize, author, transcode, burn)... Well, maybe not that long, but certainly not push one button and burn in real time!
 
#508 ·
US people (with electricity) who own one or more TV? I'd say maybe 90%.


Same group that owned and used VCRs back before HD came along? I'd say around 80%.


People who currently own a TV and have either their sat box, cable box, or an OTA tuner connected to a computer of any kind, such that they can record live TV shows with some sort of timer mechanism so they can record even when not present to press the record button, to archive either to a hard drive or an optical disk of some kind as a one step, real time process, today? I'd say less than 3%, maybe even less than 1%.


People who make it a double length process, taking two hours to record a movie to a DVR of some sort, then at a later time transfer the recording to a computer for archiving purposes, taking up another two hours of their life that they can't be watching their DVRs since they don't have simultaneous, dual, matrixed, outputs [one plays TV of your choice, the other the TV show you are archiving to your computer], maybe 5% of people? Connecting live TV to one's computer is not "mainstream".


I disagree that there would be no "market" for a BR or DVD disc [AVCHD] HD recorder which acts in an analogous fashion to how VCRs recorded in your absence, straight to an archivable medium, in realtime. The vast majority of US people don't even have their TVs connected to their computers, yet being able to archive easily and cheaply would interest them. Think of how many grandmas are out there who buy these "digital picture frames", as an example, to see digital images because using a computer screen to view family images just isn't their thing/speed.
 
#509 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicLogic /forum/post/22000761


I think this thread needs to be unstuck. It makes no sense. DVD has never provided HD resolution. hDVD didn't even gain any popularity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson /forum/post/22001028


I agree. This thread has not merited sticky status for a long time now.

I would also agree, it's time has passed. It's not as if the information in the thread will be lost, it will still be available for anyone searching and since AVS doesn't seem to archive anymore(or hasn't for many years) anyone would be able to revive the thread by a simple post and checking the old thread box.
 
#510 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff /forum/post/22001772


I would also agree, it's time has passed. It's not as if the information in the thread will be lost, it will still be available for anyone searching and since AVS doesn't seem to archive anymore(or hasn't for many years) anyone would be able to revive the thread by a simple post and checking the old thread box.

Yes, its time has passed. As MichaelLAX stated, the thread was originated to address the question framed in its title because people were tired of it being asked multiple times per week -- in that time period of 7 yr ago. It no longer contains information of enduring value, if it ever did, and is not a hotbed of discussion; aside from the recent spate of 30 posts, it had laid dormant for nearly a year. Unstick it and let it stand (or fade) on its own.
 
#511 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch /forum/post/22001407


...I disagree that there would be no "market" for a BR or DVD disc [AVCHD] HD recorder which acts in an analogous fashion to how VCRs recorded in your absence, straight to an archivable medium, in realtime. The vast majority of US people don't even have their TVs connected to their computers, yet being able to archive easily and cheaply would interest them. Think of how many grandmas are out there who buy these "digital picture frames", as an example, to see digital images because using a computer screen to view family images just isn't their thing/speed.

I'm not an economist, but if there were a sizable enough market, wouldn't they manufacture the product and put it for sale on the market?
 
#512 ·
There can be many reasons why a product might be kept off the market besides "market demand".
 
#514 ·
Reasons why a product might not be put on the open, commercial market, yet there would be a consumer demand for it, might include, as examples, legal, political, financial, or product liability issues/repercussions the general public very well may not be privy to.
 
#515 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch /forum/post/22001407


I disagree that there would be no "market" for a BR or DVD disc [AVCHD] HD recorder which acts in an analogous fashion to how VCRs recorded in your absence, straight to an archivable medium, in realtime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX /forum/post/22002386


I'm not an economist, but if there were a sizable enough market, wouldn't they manufacture the product and put it for sale on the market?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch /forum/post/22002477


There can be many reasons why a product might be kept off the market besides "market demand".
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX /forum/post/22002497


Please be more descriptive... What are you suggesting?

What the heck, since this thread is likely gonna be unstuck anyway, I'll play one more time: MichaelLAX, m. zilch is simply playing the "conspiracy theory" card in the latest round of our navel-gazing AVS game of "waah waah why can't we buy the recorders we want anymore?" The game has been going on since 2006, when every DVD/HDD recorder except the Magnavox was pulled from USA shelves, never to return or be upgraded.


Many here cannot accept the simple fact that the tide changed and 95% of consumers now have no interest, NONE, in playing with removable media recorders. The invention of TiVo, and its perversion into the now-ubiquitous cable/satellite rental PVR, changed everything. Why? Because they do exactly what typical consumers wanted, but which was not possible previously. VCRs were bought by virtually everyone because there was no alternative: if you wanted to rent/buy videos to play at home, you bought a VCR. The recording feature was the initial selling point for early adopters, but once the corner video store arose most VCRs were primarily used as players. Remember the old cliche that most of the population had their VCR clock perpetually flashing "12:00" because they didn't know how to do anything but press the play button? The minority that actually did still want to record benefited from the fact the recording option had been established early on, and did not cost extra to incorporate in a VCR.


When DVD was introduced as a replacement for VHS, it couldn't record at first. Virtually no one cared: it was an overnight sensation because it made movie rentals more available and movie purchases far more affordable. The few people still interested in recording still used their VCRs. When DVD recorders first arrived, they were a pain to use and five times the cost of a VCR. The result? Epic fail. By the time they added an affordable HDD feature to make DVD recording truly practical, TiVo and the rental PVR had begun their encroachment on the consumer mindset. Huge flatscreen HDTVs began invading every home, rendering SD recording on DVDs obsolete. Throw in the shady manipulative practices of American cable companies, who put every possible obstacle in the path of DVD recorders, and the result is a closed system. The cable rental PVR, and to a lesser extent TiVo, are the only HDTV-grade recorders that integrate seamlessly with cable service. Most Americans have cable, so most Americans opt for the idiot-box rental PVR. The end.


And before we start in with the affiliated "why no American BluRay recorders?" question, lets not forget the price issue. When DVD recorders first debuted, the typical VCR was $99. No one was willing to pay $499 for a DVD recorder that had no real perceived advantages, couldn't record much past two hours per DVD in passable quality, and was harder to use. Models with HDD started at $900, which was just not ever going to work at retail: they might as well have not bothered. By the time mfrs got their act together to sell $449 DVD/HDD recorders with TVGOS and other conveniences, the consumer tide had turned completely to rental PVRs. The immensely botched USA digital broadcast transition and attendant draconian mfr regulations were the final nail in the coffin: recorder mfrs bailed in late 2006, leaving behind only the DVD/VHS combos. Those few of us who could appreciate the value of a $449 DVD/HDD recorder scrambled to buy up the last remaining units.


This state of affairs had a total chilling effect on any chance of an American BluRay recorder. DVD could just about get away with not having an HDD in the recorder: BluRay requires it. So before we even upgrade to BD, base price would have to at least equal the final $449 DVD/HDD price- which laid a gigantic egg. Add in the (excessive) cost of the new "only-in-USA" ATSC tuner, and you're up to $599. Add BluRay, and you're up to $1499 (price of the first Panasonic BD/HDD recorder). Having already been burned to cinders by $449 DVD/HDD, no mfr was ever going to commit suicide with a $1499 USA-spec BD/HDD, so we never got one and now never will.


Things were different in Europe and Asia because there is no cable service to screw things up, DTV broadcasts are standard across countries, satellite service is standardized, and a free TiVo-like EPG system is available. Without cable around to stunt every operational feature, DVD/HDD recorders were perceived as a very good value at $599 and sold very well, esp the Sonys. The first couple rounds of BluRay/HDD recorders did OK even at $1500, but eventually price resistance set in just as it had in North America. TiVo-like rental boxes that could record in full HDTV swept Europe as more and more households bought large screen TVs. Sales of DVD/HDD took a sharp dive in 2009, accelerated by best-selling Sony Europe's stupid decision to have Samsung OEM what have to be the worst DVD/HDD recorders in history (as replacements for the stellar previous Sony models). Just as in USA, most mfrs pulled DVD/HDD from the market, even the Magnavox mfr, leaving only Panasonic today.


Current European Panasonic BluRay and DVD recorders with HDD are a pale imitation of their previous models, with authoring and editing features thrown under the bus to accommodate demand for more TiVo-like operation. Any day now, Panasonic will bail like all the other brands did, and the entire global market will consist of sealed HDD-only TV recorders. It isn't a conspiracy by Hollywood, it just kind of worked out in their favor. Cable killed the disc recorder in North America, they remained popular overseas until recently when the proliferation of streaming, HDTV and mobile devices caused a drop in demand for disc burning. The typical consumer, everywhere in the world now, has lost interest in disc recording: all they really want is point-and-click, EPG-driven, HiDef timeshifting boxes.


A few years ago, Hollywood made an alliance with Toshiba and other memory chip mfrs to develop compact recorders that put HiDef TV directly on chips that could then be plugged into cell phones, iPods, laptops, tablets, TVs, etc. (the idea being to give younger consumers the device flexibility they craved while preserving some degree of DRM). The concept had reached a fairly advanced stage of development when it dawned on everyone that NetFlix web delivery had pretty much killed the market for such a chip recorder. Once again, the immediate-gratification on-demand playback paradigm had killed consumer need or interest in recording for themselves.


Aside from geeks willing to trick out their PCs with recording hardware, the age of consumer recording on a mass scale using simple dedicated devices is over forever. And it wasn't Hollywood or govt conspiracies that did it: consumers rolled over and handed victory to them by dint of laziness and dependence on convenience. You want to talk conspiracies? Wait about ten years, until all the leftover old recorders bite the dust and Hollywood/cable/internet providers finally have us completely by the short hairs. You're gonna see prices to "conveniently access media" skyrocket beyond what anyone today believes possible. All the cheapskate idiots who are now dementedly whining about "NetFlix Price Gouging" won't know what hit them when NetFlix finally stops selling rentals below cost.
 
#516 ·
Thank you for taking the time and effort for that well written response!


I still use my Panny DVD-VCR Recorder (less and less frequently) to burn to DVD-RW:


1. Digitize VHS tapes that I find in my storage or on eBay;


2. Digitize Laserdiscs that are unavailable on DVD that I find on eBay; and


3. Digitize SD material.


I then transcode everything digital to AppleTV format, save it on my video hard disk library and serve it up to my AppleTV for viewing (and wipe the DVD-RW for reuse).


HD content starts with my Hauppauge HDPVR 1212...
 
#517 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX /forum/post/22003042


I still use my Panny DVD-VCR Recorder (less and less frequently) to burn to DVD-RW:


1. Digitize VHS tapes that I find in my storage or on eBay;


2. Digitize Laserdiscs that are unavailable on DVD that I find on eBay; and


3. Digitize SD material.


I then transcode everything digital to AppleTV format, save it on my video hard disk library and serve it up to my AppleTV for viewing (and wipe the DVD-RW for reuse).


HD content starts with my Hauppauge HDPVR 1212...

Why wouldn't you use the 1212 for all three scenarios in addition to HD content?
 
#518 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/22003003


MichaelLAX, m. zilch is simply playing the "conspiracy theory" card in the latest round of our navel-gazing AVS game of "waah waah why can't we buy the recorders we want anymore?"

Incorrect, and I would appreciate it if you would please not jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth explaining, "How m. zilch [sic] really feels". [I'm paraphrasing.] I never said anything about any kind of "conspiracy".


I simply stated that there are many reasons why products are or aren't on the open market, besides just consumer demand. If you disagree with me on that point, that's fine, but please don't read into what I've written and make it into something it isn't. Instead, simply take what I've written at face value. Thanks.
 
#519 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be /forum/post/22003166


Why wouldn't you use the 1212 for all three scenarios in addition to HD content?

As I mentioned the Panny DVD Recorder is being used less frequently, and hence the Hauppauge is being used more frequently...


There are some times that I just like the convenience of starting the content on my DirecTV DVR and pushing the Record button on the Panny remote to get to 1 hour or 2 hours as is needed and not have to use the computer for this step.


Of course the computer is always needed for step two in either case, to transcode to AppleTV specs.


The output of the Hauppauge is too complex for the AppleTV to handle, whether the original content was HD or SD, so I transcode it down (primarily from CABAC to CAVLC; which does not degrade the image quality, it only increases the size of the file).


It is going to be interesting to see if the newly released AppleTV 3 will be able to play the raw output of the Hauppauge with just a simple container change from m2ts to mp4...


Also: the Panny is hardwired to the DirecTV DVR (S-Video 1) and my old Laserdisc player (S-Video 2), while the Hauppauge is hardwired to only the DirecTV DVR (component).
 
#521 ·
Point taken, m. zilch: apologies for the wording of my reply to MichaelLAX. No disrespect to you personally was intended, I used your post as a jumping off point to cover all the issues we've jawed on here for half a decade. Its just that your remark along the lines of "other forces must be in play, I can't believe there's THAT little consumer demand to justify no recorders" has been posted by members over and over and OVER again, different wording but same idea, month after month, year after year. Time and again the answer has been, "sorry, no other forces, consumers just don't give a @#*& about archiving anymore, if there was ANY money to be made you bet your ass Sony and Panasonic would not have left it on the table for Funai."


As a former video store owner, I'm still plugged in to all the trade reporting on consumer electronics and home media. To trade journalists, recorder mfrs made it very clear six years ago why they were leaving USA, and shortly thereafter Canada: the ATSC digital broadcast system sucked like a trampled lemon wedge on the floor of a bar at 4AM, it was incompatible with existing production of recorders for the rest of the world, the FCC edict to implement it prematurely while still including conflicting analog tuners was a logistic and engineering nightmare, and it would force recorder prices back up to $599 at a time when Americans had already flatly refused to buy $449 analog recorders. They continued with DVD/VHS because a significant minority of Americans who still hadn't gotten around to dubbing their VHS to digital was willing to pay $329 for an ATSC combo unit, but the HDD feature was sacrificed (having been completely replaced by cable/sat rental PVR in the American psyche).


Thats really all there was to it. Some of us hate that it was that cut-and-dried, and understandably look for "other causes" in the vain hope they could be overcome and perhaps advanced Disc+HDD recorders would return to North America. That hope has now been extinguished: Europe has moved on to discless PVRs, and even the Japanese home market has rejected BluRay/HDD recorders. Disc is dead, aside from the pre-rec market. As fewer and fewer people feel the urge to archive, those left give up and just buy the commercial releases, esp of TV series. Timeshifting has moved to PVRs and increasingly to web delivery. I personally don't get the fascination with viewing online: all the sites have major issues and the experience is more annoying than anything else. But everyone I know, even the elderly, are doing Hulu and NetFlix and network sites: where the mass market goes, so goes the electronics and delivery system.
 
#522 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2be /forum/post/22003653


Aren't there 3 different output modes for the 1212, have you tried them all for compatibility with your AppleTV? Just info gathering here.

The characteristics of the resulting video file from the output of the 1212 are determined by the chipset contained therein. While there is some tweaking that you can do by software presets, none of them will change the output from CABAC to CALVC, convert the frame rate from 59.940 back down to 29.97, nor otherwise make its output compatible with the AppleTV.


While there are 3 input methods to the 1212 to input video/audio (composite, S-Video & component video and analog RCA or digital Toslink audio), there is only one output: component video with either analog RCA audio or digital Toslink audio.


Am I missing something? Is there some software presets that you are referring to? I have long abandoned the Windows software that comes with it and exclusively use Steve Toth's HDCapture for the Mac.


For those interested, here is an analysis of a sample output file from a 720p DirecTV capture (HDCapture has the ability to convert the m2ts to a mp4 container very quickly with no transcoding involved):

Code:
Code:
* * * MediaInfo Mac 0.7.36.0 file analysis report.
* * * MediaInfo Mac is ©2010 by Diego Massanti - http://mediainfo.massanti.com
* * * MediaInfoLib by Jerome Martinez - http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net
Created on: May 9, 2012 1:41:03 PM PDT
Report for file: 20120418_161501.m2ts

General / Container Stream #1
  Total Video Streams for this File.................1
  Total Audio Streams for this File.................1
  Video Codecs Used.................................AVC
  Audio Codecs Used.................................AC3
  File Format.......................................MPEG-TS
  Play Time.........................................1mn 55s
  Total File Size...................................21.4 MiB
  Total Stream BitRate..............................1 546 Kbps
Video Stream #1
  Codec (Human Name)................................AVC
  Codec (FourCC)....................................27
  Codec Profile.....................................Main@L4.0
  Frame Width.......................................1 280 pixels
  Frame Height......................................720 pixels
  Frame Rate........................................59.940 fps
  Total Frames......................................6941
  Display Aspect Ratio..............................16:9
  Scan Type.........................................Progressive
  Color Space.......................................YUV
  Codec Settings (Summary)..........................CABAC / 4 Ref Frames
  QF (like Gordian Knot)............................0.020
  Codec Settings (CABAC)............................Yes
  Codec Settings (Reference Frames).................4
  Video Stream Length...............................1mn 55s 799ms
  Video Stream BitRate..............................1 081 Kbps
  Video Stream BitRate Mode.........................VBR
  Bit Depth.........................................8 bits
  Video Stream Size.................................14.9 MiB (70%)
  Color Primaries...................................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
  Transfer Characteristics..........................BT.709-5, BT.1361
  Matrix Coefficients...............................BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
Audio Stream #1
  Codec.............................................AC-3
  Codec (FourCC)....................................129
  Audio Stream Length...............................1mn 55s 808ms
  Audio Stream BitRate..............................384 Kbps
  Audio Stream BitRate Mode.........................CBR
  Number of Audio Channels..........................6
  Audio Channel's Positions.........................Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
  Sampling Rate.....................................48.0 KHz
  Bit Depth.........................................16 bits
  Audio Stream Delay................................387ms
  Audio Stream Size.................................5.30 MiB (25%)
 
#523 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelLAX /forum/post/22003862


Am I missing something? Is there some software presets that you are referring to? I have long abandoned the Windows software that comes with it and exclusively use Steve Toth's HDCapture for the Mac.

I was simply referring to this from the product description page. I am in no way an expert, just going off what I've read in the past. I would have thought the last one mentioned, .MP4 might work.


Record formats

There are three H.264 formats you can choose when recording a video:


.TS, which is a generic 'transport stream' compatible with many digital media players

.M2TS, which is compatible with the Sony Playstation3

.MP4, which is compatible with the XBox360


The .TS and .M2TS files are AVCHD compatible, and can be used to burn Blu-ray compatible disc recordings. These files can be burned onto a standard DVD+R or DVD+RW disc for playback in a Blu-ray disc player using the included Arcsoft TME Disk Create application. Approximately 2 hours of HD TV recorded at 5Mbits/sec can be put onto a standard DVD+R or DVD+RW disc.


The included TME Media Converter program may also be used to convert the .TS file to other formats compatible for playback on an iPhone and Ipod.
 
#524 ·
These are "container" specifications, each of which contain a video component and an audio component (and other more complex files NOT from the raw Hauppauge could contain subtitles and other components).


While yes, you can get an mp4 container that is acceptable to the AppleTV, it is the specifications of the video and audio contained therein, that keep the raw output from working on the AppleTV.


The last line quoted must be the Windows way to convert m2ts files to mp4 containers; like the Convert function in the HDCapture for the Mac does.


I have, as suggested, used Toast to burn the raw m2ts AVC output files to a DL-DVD in BR format, and the HD content plays nicely on my Samsung Home Theater's BluRay player. But for the most part, I have abandoned optical media and gone "discless!"... with the exception of prerecorded commercial BR discs.
 
#525 ·
+1 Yes, I agree archiving "discless" is the best, longterm way to go, at least for tech savvy folks like all of us, but average Joes/Joans and grandma/pa might not be there yet.

---


Back to the topic of standalone, consumer grade, HD (Blu-ray) disc recorders, and their possible demand and marketability in the US. I thought instead of the random speculations of internet forum members like me and others, some here might be interested in what industry experts like CNET have to say, [this taken from an article about some JVC professional Blu-ray recorders, then being released]:


"Not a month goes by without us getting an e-mail or two from consumers looking for a set-top Blu-ray recorder. "They're available in Europe and Asia," goes the common refrain. "When will they be coming here?" Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news: JVC has just announced two new Blu-ray set-top recorders for the North American market. The bad news? They're expensive models aimed squarely at professional videographers who are mastering their own HD discs (think wedding photographers and the like). They're not intended for home use and--because of their pro-targeted features--wouldn't really be useful for home recording anyway.


Don't blame JVC for the disappointment here. The reason that consumer Blu-ray recorders don't exist in the U.S. is that they'd be so jammed full of copy-protection schemes (to placate movie studios and TV networks) that they'd be all but unusable for recording TV shows anyway."[emphasis mine]


Of course this was written way, way back in the fall of 2009 though, so I'm sure things might be drastically different today.
 
#526 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch /forum/post/22004213


Back to the topic of standalone, consumer grade, HD (Blu-ray) disc recorders, and their possible demand and marketability in the US. I thought instead of the random speculations of internet forum members like me and others, some here might be interested in what industry experts like CNET have to say, [this taken from an article about some JVC professional Blu-ray recorders, then being released]:

There are MANY who would argue c/net is about the most useless bunch of tools ever to try and pass themselves off as a tech site.
I would tend to give more credence to any random poster on AVS than I would any industry article on c/net: their record has been none too good.

Quote:
"Not a month goes by without us getting an e-mail or two from consumers looking for a set-top Blu-ray recorder. "They're available in Europe and Asia," goes the common refrain. "When will they be coming here?"

Taken literally, this means three years ago (never mind now) the twits who run c/net claimed to receive "one or two" requests per month for BluRay recorders. Thats about two dozen a year, being generous. I guarantee you, all 24 of those requests came from AVS members, and I could write you a list of their names
. Panasonic and Sony were not interested in selling 24 BD recorders a year back in 2009, and its not even on their radar in 2012. Sony quickly walked from its own creation: even in Japan there are no Sony-branded BD recorders. If that doesn't tell you something about worldwide lack of interest, nothing will. The Japanese collect test patterns, for pity's sake: they record EVERYTHING. If they've lost interest, its game over for everyone else as well.


Again, no disrespect to you, m. zilch: I know you're digging this stuff up to see if anything has changed since 2009. It hasn't, those "24 requests" to c/net have probably dropped to what you can count on the fingers of one hand in a year. A bunch of us on North American forums like this are clamoring for a new BD/HDD recorder: lets be generous and say 300. Of those 300, perhaps 20 would be willing (and able) to afford what they sell for in England, Germany and Australia: $899+ (US). Everyone else is delusional, believing "economy of scale" would make a $379 BD/HDD recorder possible.


Um, no: if they barely move them in Europe or Japan where consumers had no price resistance until very recently, they aren't gonna be able to get enough volume to cut the price in half for Americans. Pioneer, Sony, and Panasonic already tried that trick with DVD/HDD recorders, and got kicked in the gonads for their trouble. Funai/Magnavox agreed with WalMart to sell DVD/HDD below cost at $229, and they still rot in the warehouse until "discontinuation rumors" make them sell out once a year or so. And of those that sell, 50% are returned for refund because they're "too complicated to figure out." The brainwaves of the typical American consumer flatline the minute they touch video equipment: if it doesn't read their minds to record their favorite shows, their eyes glaze over and it goes back to the store.

Quote:
Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news: JVC has just announced two new Blu-ray set-top recorders for the North American market. The bad news? They're expensive models aimed squarely at professional videographers who are mastering their own HD discs (think wedding photographers and the like). They're not intended for home use and--because of their pro-targeted features--wouldn't really be useful for home recording anyway.

JVC couldn't make a reliable disc recorder if their entire board of directors was taken hostage, and that goes double if it involves an HDD. Their track record is atrocious, even the "semi-pro" DVD/HDD and DVD/MiniDV models that were precursor to these newer BD units. They're desperate to move some units in North America, so they repackaged a generic BD/HDD to bait "event videographers" and other "pro" users, figuring a "pro" could write off a $1300 recorder that self-destructs in three months. Plus, they can avoid including the ATSC tuner, meaning they don't have to change anything but the voltage setting on the power supply.

Quote:
"The reason that consumer Blu-ray recorders don't exist in the U.S. is that they'd be so jammed full of copy-protection schemes (to placate movie studios and TV networks) that they'd be all but unusable for recording TV shows anyway."[emphasis mine]

And with that, c/net proves what a bunch of ignorant tools they are. News flash: the recorders sold in other countries include just about the same level of DRM and recording restrictions as the North American models. There were a couple of minor exceptions with older DVD/HDD models, but the BD/HDD machines are crawling with restrictions inherent to both BluRay itself and the Japanese brands being in bed with Hollywood on multiple business levels. Hollywood has nothing to do with why BluRay recorders aren't sold in USA/Canada: they aren't sold here because unlike every other civilized region in the world, we are in thrall to cable TV service.


Cable does not want subscribers to use their own recorders when it is so profitable to rent them proprietary PVRs, so they use every technical trick they can muster to frustrate integration of "outside" recorders. There may be 2000 members on AVS that would rather die than pay a PVR rental fee, but there are 20 million cable consumers who are more than happy to skimp on their insulin or baby formula to pay the fees: they like their cable PVRs and TiVos, and they LOVE the one-click integrated EPG timeshifting on simultaneous channels. Oh, and by the way- they have no intention, none whatsoever, of paying $499-$999 for a generic non-integrated recorder that is really only useful for off-air antenna reception (which they don't get) or dubbing from a camcorder (which they now do on their laptops or tablets). They view $10-15/month for the PVR as small potatoes compared to large upfront cost for a recorder that can't do what they need.


There aren't enough consumers in North America willing to pay for an expensive recorder that can't be easily used with cable: thats all there is to this story. Even if we posit 10,000 AVS members as being interested, thats a drop in the bucket. Perhaps if our government paid more attention to consumer cable rights and less attention to their disastrous rush to sell off the public airwaves for pennies on the dollar, recorders would have been more viable here. But right here, right now in 2012, its all water under the bridge- the worldwide consumer has joined America in its disdain for generic disc recorders, be they DVD or BluRay. The machines are in decline everywhere, from Japan to New Zealand to Europe to Australia. Those of us still arguing for them are considered lunatics who want to live in the past: video disc recorders are about ten minutes away from 8-track audio tape as an obsolete format. We AVS types are interested- but nobody else is. Mfrs need volume or a product dies: so recorders are dying.
 
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