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The One Money is an Object Sub to Rule Them All

  • Seaton Submersive HP

    Votes: 10 58.8%
  • JTR Captivator 1000

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • Rythmik FV15HP

    Votes: 4 23.5%

Seaton Sumersive HP, Rythmik FV15 HP, or JTR Captivator 1000 - Pick One

12K views 92 replies 35 participants last post by  Archaea 
#1 ·
This is a thought experiment to satisfy my curiosity. It seems to me these three are the trending boxes around here for the last year or so.


What would you choose and why? Does the Rythmik play at the JTR or Seaton level at ~1k less than both delivered? Are the JTR and Submersive neck and neck performance wise, as their pricing suggests, or does one clearly outperform the other?


Delivered Price:

Submersive ~$2500

JTR ~$2100

Rythmik $1,400
 
#3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Mother /forum/post/22005348


My vote was for a SubMersive HP. I've had mine for about a year now and am always impressed. Articulate, clean, powerful and just the right size. And with the variety of high quality finishes, handsome.


I've never heard the other two, but you just can't go wrong with Seaton.

That's why I have 3 of them. Best bang for the buck with excellent customer service.
 
#4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 /forum/post/22005521


That's why I have 3 of them. Best bang for the buck with excellent customer service.

The value argument is very much in play here. Others might consider spending $7,500 elsewhere. The subjective concept of value is what drove me to post this in the first place.


The JL Fathom or Wilson Thor's Hammer aren't targeted at the value crowd. But if we include these products in the mix, how do they stack up? Does the Submersive produce anything remotely close to the JL or Wilson? What kind of SPL, FR, and linearity can they offer that lower cost subs can not? And assuming three or four Submersives can get you 90% of the way of a single Thor's Hammer while saving you ten thousand dollars, can four or five Rythmiks do the same for six grand, and save you $15,000 over the Wilson?
 
#6 ·
"submersive HP, by far."


You've heard all 3 subs in the same space, have you? If not, by what criteria are you drawing your conclusion?


I've heard the SubM and Rythmik in different spaces with different listening material so it's quite hard to make a comparison; impossible even. Still, as demonstrated in the blind shootout where the SubM, Cap and other (much) lower cost subs were involved, the conclusions were hardly definitive - many could not tell which sub was which.


At this level of choice between subs, the difference will not be the monstrous gulf some will make it out to be - you'd probably only notice the difference at absurd volumes. Not only that, many will advocate what they have and/or go off the recommendations of others without hearing any one of them - so this will hardly be an objective exercise.


Good luck with whatever decision you make.
 
#8 ·
my Jamo d7 subs had servo controlled drivers.


you can see where they placed in the 2011 meet linked in my sig.


servos don't make them automatically better or worse IMO.




My vote is for the Seaton Submersive because it's a known high quality with a lot of fans and 1st and 2nd place finishes at multiple sub meets. Had you put a full blooded JTR Captivator up there instead of the Cap 1000 I would have voted for that -- having heard both in three meets now and had both at my house to demo back and forth ---- I personally like the caps better. One of my buddies, carp, personally likes the submersives better. There is no right or wrong. As Follz20 said - it's pretty hard to even know what's what when blinded out of a set of top shelf subs. It ends up being which plays cleaner and the same high volumes to a certain degree. I've not heard the Rythmik HP, but I have heard a single Rythmik 15" DIY setup with the same amp and box size that Rythmik uses for their non HP model and while not the same setup as the HP.... it wasn't even in the same league as far as output. Sound quality was nice on the Rythmik, but output was minimal by comparison.
 
#9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea /forum/post/22005693


my Jamo d7 subs had servo controlled drivers.


you can see where they placed in the 2011 meet linked in my sig.


servos don't make them automatically better or worse IMO.




My vote is for the Seaton Submersive because it's a known high quality with a lot of fans and 1st and 2nd place finishes at multiple sub meets. Had you put a full blooded JTR Captivator up there instead of the Cap 1000 I would have voted for that -- having heard both in three meets now and had both at my house to demo back and forth ---- I personally like the caps better. One of my buddies, carp, personally likes the submersives better. There is no right or wrong. As Follz20 said - it's pretty hard to even know what's what when blinded out of a set of top shelf subs. It ends up being which plays cleaner and the same high volumes to a certain degree. I've not heard the Rythmik HP, but I have heard a single Rythmik 15" DIY setup with the same amp and box size that Rythmik uses for their non HP model and while not the same setup as the HP.... it wasn't even in the same league as far as output. Sound quality was nice on the Rythmik, but output was minimal by comparison.

Archaea, I'm waiting for another Omaha guy with dual rythmiks to be free from work soon. We are hoping for three of these against one of Greg's UXL-18. The only time I've heard my rythmik become sloppy was in a tiny bathroom and a tiny 9*10 bedroom due to tons of ringing from the room and extreme room gain. So, if we put three in Greg's room, all of a sudden the bass becomes sloppy in the time domain and has a sound signature. I don't mean to call other subs sloppy but it is noticeable after being accustomed to the rythmik and my old drum line neighbors in the dorms.


I'm betting that three rythmiks are still considered to be no output subs after both these and one UXL are level matched at a reasonable volume. If both pass basic measurements nearly the same but sound significantly different, then what
? The sub can't sound any clearer than when your ear is by the driver unless you have an annoying 60 Hz hum from someone putting your kitchen and living room on the same circuit haha. I know, subs are the main event for you and like bass waves thick enough to surf on
. Actually the Captivator (blind setup B) was my favorite high output sub. Too bad no one in the area enjoys music. The ambience from subs might be my favorite part.
 
#10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf /forum/post/22005311


This is a thought experiment to satisfy my curiosity. It seems to me these three are the trending boxes around here for the last year or so.


What would you choose and why? Does the Rythmik play at the JTR or Seaton level at ~1k less than both delivered? Are the JTR and Submersive neck and neck performance wise, as their pricing suggests, or does one clearly outperform the other?


Delivered Price:

Submersive ~$2500

JTR ~$2100

Rythmik $1,400

Why not add $300 and get dual Rythmik setup?
 
#11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf /forum/post/22005590


The value argument is very much in play here. Others might consider spending $7,500 elsewhere. The subjective concept of value is what drove me to post this in the first place.


The JL Fathom or Wilson Thor's Hammer aren't targeted at the value crowd. But if we include these products in the mix, how do they stack up? Does the Submersive produce anything remotely close to the JL or Wilson? What kind of SPL, FR, and linearity can they offer that lower cost subs can not? And assuming three or four Submersives can get you 90% of the way of a single Thor's Hammer while saving you ten thousand dollars, can four or five Rythmiks do the same for six grand, and save you $15,000 over the Wilson?

can't comment on the thor's hammer, but a subm hp will give you *more* than the jl...


the jl's "appeal" is that it gets you almost everything that a sub like a subm hp gives you in a very small and attractive package... the fathom is a wonderful piece of engineering, and for it's target market, well worth the coin...


i have subm's so i voted for them... but if i had "other factors" affecting my decision (read: waf), i wouldn't go to sleep at night crying if i had a pair of jl's instead of a pair of subm's...



the rythmik, while a very nice sub and a capable performer in it's own right, really isn't comparable to the subm or jl....


one man's opinion...
 
#12 ·
You know, whenever I see threads like this, I am biting by tongue. I happen to have an HP and love it. Unfortunalitly I have not heard the Thor's Hammer or JL subs. I can say that I have heard the older, Wilson Watch dog and the older JM Labs Sub Utopia Be. Both of those cost way more then my SubMersive HP. But I am confident that I am not missing anything with the SubMersive HP. I also have some very old charts that Mark sent me when I was considering what sub to buy. They were the older 1000 watt models. They were also in "regular" size rooms. The numbers and charts that Mark sent me left my jaw on the floor. But I am hesitant to post them, or even PM them out of respect for Mark. For it's size and form factor, I really think it's hard to fault this sub given it's performance. But that is just another mans opinion
.
 
#13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea /forum/post/22005693


my Jamo d7 subs had servo controlled drivers.


you can see where they placed in the 2011 meet linked in my sig.


servos don't make them automatically better or worse IMO.




My vote is for the Seaton Submersive because it's a known high quality with a lot of fans and 1st and 2nd place finishes at multiple sub meets. Had you put a full blooded JTR Captivator up there instead of the Cap 1000 I would have voted for that -- having heard both in three meets now and had both at my house to demo back and forth ---- I personally like the caps better. One of my buddies, carp, personally likes the submersives better. There is no right or wrong. As Follz20 said - it's pretty hard to even know what's what when blinded out of a set of top shelf subs. It ends up being which plays cleaner and the same high volumes to a certain degree. I've not heard the Rythmik HP, but I have heard a single Rythmik 15" DIY setup with the same amp and box size that Rythmik uses for their non HP model and while not the same setup as the HP.... it wasn't even in the same league as far as output. Sound quality was nice on the Rythmik, but output was minimal by comparison.

Archaea,

Jeff has told me the Cap1000 is basically a Cap with 6 dbs's less output. I am not sure if it even that far apart with spl but my vote goes to the Submersive HP. If you like the Cap's sound quality better than the submersive than you would still vote for the Cap1000. I have two of them in my friends theater which is 3 times the size of mine and they can play reference easily. My room is actually harder to get louder spl's from.
 
#14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater /forum/post/22006344


Archaea,

Jeff has told me the Cap1000 is basically a Cap with 6 dbs's less output. I am not sure if it even that far apart with spl but my vote goes to the Submersive HP. If you like the Cap's sound quality better than the submersive than you would still vote for the Cap1000. I have two of them in my friends theater which is 3 times the size of mine and they can play reference easily. My room is actually harder to get louder spl's from.

I agree, I've heard that the ep4000 amp powering a passive Cap is similar to a Cap 1000. Archaea if you were in my room when I was comparing that to a Submersive I'm betting you would have picked the Cap especially on movies which would mean you would like the Cap 1000 more too.
 
#16 ·
RMK!, were you burned or something? Why so snotty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 /forum/post/22005990


Why not add $300 and get dual Rythmik setup?

It's not in the poll, but the conversation is wide open. There are a couple of scenarios we can play with regarding dual Rythmiks. We could do an SPL/Linearity comparison with them stacked or we could to an FR/SPL/Linearity comparison with them in two parts of the room. I'm not sure what the outcome would be, but I get the impression that within a reasonable size room two Rythmiks separated would hit reference with lower distortion and better FR than a single Submersive. I don't know if I'm right or not.
 
#18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf /forum/post/22006534


I get the impression that within a reasonable size room two Rythmiks separated would hit reference with lower distortion and better FR than a single Submersive. I don't know if I'm right or not.

I think a Submersive has more than a 3db advantage over a single Rythmik so I think you would have to co-locate the Rythmiks.


I also could be wrong, and to be honest Rythmik is one of the few companies that I haven't heard any of their subs.
 
#20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test123455 /forum/post/22005682


Since I'm still trying to figure out why so few companies use servos besides Rythmik...i'd like to ask how that factors in here. The FV15 is the only one that has a servo; wouldnt that give it an inherent advantage since neither of the other 2 have it?

No, the servo would give it an inherent disadvantage.


The servo, at least as executed by Rythmik, creates a bigger problem (limited top-end extension) than it solves (less 2d order distortion, which is perceptually more or less irrelevant, down low).
 
#21 ·
I own a rythmik f12se. I also attended the blind gtg at archaeas which included the subm and cap.


The subm and cap are simply more pleasing to listen to than the rythmik in my opinion. But there is nothing "wrong" with the sound of the rythmik. I would like to hear a rythmik with more output and I wonder how that would level the playing field.


Subm vs cap is just preference and you can't go wrong. I preferred the sealed sound for music but for movies it was much closer. It was pretty hard to even tell the difference between the top 4 subs.
 
#22 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/22007421


No, the servo would give it an inherent disadvantage.


The servo, at least as executed by Rythmik, creates a bigger problem (limited top-end extension) than it solves (less 2d order distortion, which is perceptually more or less irrelevant, down low).

This does not appear to be true based on the fact that the newer amps show flat response out to 200 Hz or higher if you use the correct input. I think the low pass on the Rythmik amps was implemented for reasons other than to account for the servo.


FWIW, I'm agnostic WRT servo systems in egeneral, but I note it appears that Rythmik and ohters have produced servo subs that perform quite well.
 
#23 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp /forum/post/0



I agree, I've heard that the ep4000 amp powering a passive Cap is similar to a Cap 1000. Archaea if you were in my room when I was comparing that to a Submersive I'm betting you would have picked the Cap especially on movies which would mean you would like the Cap 1000 more too.

I believe the Cap1000 has a different driver than the powered and passive Caps. Jeff's website has the 1k's xmax @ 20mm and the other Caps @ 30mm.

The Cap 1k is still an amazing performer/dollar though.

If one's space isn't too large and they want duals Cap 1k's may make the most sense for those preferring ported.

Tim
 
#24 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by capecodorthopod /forum/post/22008037


I believe the Cap1000 has a different driver than the powered and passive Caps. Jeff's website has the 1k's xmax @ 20mm and the other Caps @ 30mm.

The Cap 1k is still an amazing performer/dollar though.

If one's space isn't too large and they want duals Cap 1k's may make the most sense for those preferring ported.

Tim

Yes, we know they are different but they sound the same with one having less max output. We are only talking about .79 inches of total excursion less so what Carp was saying if people used the EP-4000 which is a 2000 watt amp it would be using 3 dBs less output than a full 4000 watt powered Cap so they would be about the same in output and sound minus the one band PEQ on the Cap1000 plate amp.
 
#25 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 /forum/post/22007421


No, the servo would give it an inherent disadvantage.


The servo, at least as executed by Rythmik, creates a bigger problem (limited top-end extension) than it solves (less 2d order distortion, which is perceptually more or less irrelevant, down low).

You said this is another thread. Are you saying that because of Audioholics max burst CEA tests? I'm wondering where you get your information because Ilkka's test shows low upper harmonic distortion and Rythmiks site shows that it decreases 3rd, 4th, and 5th order harmonic distortion more while producing less sideband energy. Brian has said multiple times most of the Rythmik's harmonic distortion is 2nd order and that it is not objectionable.


The Rythmik is -3 dB at 200 Hz if not using the lpf. You also know that the Rythmiks are free from time variant distortion if the amplifier is not clipping but you do not state that. BTW, the Rythmik DS1200 and DS1501 driver have less inductance than the Aura NS15 in the bass frequencies. You have been directly involved in discussions involving the upper end, time variant distortion, and inductance but you only state lower 2nd order distortion used in a Max output test
. Harmonic distortion is only one dimension of distortion.
 
#26 ·
Not sure how a reduced top end extension would be disadvantage...who would use 200 hz on a sub
even 120 hz is a bit too high IMHO


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny /forum/post/22008357


You said this is another thread. Are you saying that because of Audioholics max burst CEA tests? I'm wondering where you get your information because Ilkka's test shows low upper harmonic distortion and Rythmiks site shows that it decreases 3rd, 4th, and 5th order harmonic distortion more while producing less sideband energy. Brian has said multiple times most of the Rythmik's harmonic distortion is 2nd order and that it is not objectionable.


The Rythmik is -3 dB at 200 Hz if not using the lpf. You also know that the Rythmiks are free from time variant distortion if the amplifier is not clipping but you do not state that. BTW, the Rythmik DS1200 and DS1501 driver have less inductance than the Aura NS15 in the bass frequencies. You have been directly involved in discussions involving the upper end, time variant distortion, and inductance but you only state lower 2nd order distortion used in a Max output test
. Harmonic distortion is only one dimension of distortion.
 
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