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Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012

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#1 ·
This thread has been created to document the 2012 Blind Subwoofer Shootout in Kansas City Missouri hosted on Jan 14, 2012.


The goal of this event was to have multiple subwoofer enthusiasts blind audition quality and relevant subwoofer pairs. Subjective comments were collected before revealing results to discover if previous enthusiasts' previous subwoofer meets of past have had built in biases that are not present in blind auditioning. Each subwoofer auditioned was required to demoed in pairs. We hoped to explore several questions listed below -- among others.

1) Can the difference between ported and sealed be detected in blind auditions?

2) Do enthusiasts favor one type of subwoofer design (ported, sealed, horn) over another in blind auditions for music vs. movies?

3) Are all subwoofer brand and design biases based on increasing cost effectively neutralized if auditioners don't know know which particular sub is being auditioned and voted on? Basically at a certain point are all subwoofers created equal?

4) Do capable sealed subwoofers with the ability to produce powerful subsonic make a recognizably positive impression on voting scores during blind audition?


The contenders:

4 sealed subwoofers

Chase Home Theater 18.T

JTR Cap S

Seaton Submersive

MFW-15 DIY Dual opposed

2 ported subwoofers

HSU VTF-15H

JTR Captivator Pro

1 horn

JTR Orbit Shifter


Commence reading! and enjoy!


-Jonathan

Archaea


Get the gory details of planning this thing here - oh and read the last few pages for some parrallel discussion with this thread before the planning thread died down.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1369860


Shown in this video is the basic procedures of the day -



Shown in this album are some of the pics from the meet.
http://s1191.photobucket.com/albums/...woofer%20Meet/

Seating Chart for Blind Voters - (gentlemen in parenthesis did not score by choice, or because they could only attend a partial day)
Each voting attendees original scanned score sheet was uploaded on page 2 of this thread or it can also be found on the hyperlink by clicking the user's forum handle in the seating chart list immediately below.

Front Row

Left Side - (Blaine), kwarny , HuskerOmaha , stitch1 , wulfcomp , wlelandj - Right Side

Back Row

Left Side - (Scott), thebuckaman , desertdome , jedimastergrant , carp , (Bezlar) - Right Side


EDIT: At request - to help show how each of these seats and thus their owner's votes were affected by their seat's unique frequency reponse please see the following post. I retested the seating positions post meet with my Captivator Pros to provide some guidance on interpreting blind voters' subjective comments, as the original graphs captured for each sub in post # 3 are simply an average of all 12 seats and do NOT represent what each seat heard. To determine what each voter heard you'd need to take the overall average and meld it with the particular seat to come up with a somewhat equitable idea of the frequency response.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21532240


Setup/Teardown

Archaea, Blain, Jeff, Luke Kamp, Mark, Tesseract67

Measurements

Archaea, Blain, Luke Kamp, Tesseract67

Score Compilations

Archaea and Luke Kamp - All scoresheets scanned and posted for transparancy to our readers.

Media Tracks Auditioned on each Sub Setup -

Music Track List - (Auditioned at -10 Onkyo TX-NR1007 MLV)

Here is a copy of the tracks (gone through some conversions unfortunately multiple MP3 files trimmed using MPTrim (These are what we auditioned) -> multiple clips combined using winamp nullsoft diskwriter to output a single wav file -> combined to single mp3 file using winamps 3rd party official lame mp3 writer plugin) - Despite the conversions - with this link you can listen to all the tracks we auditioned to get an idea of the music.

http://kiwi6.com/file/vo80ks3b34


Realm of Excursion - 100hz to 20hz sine wave

Rockapella - Shambala

Dallas Wind Symphony - The Vikings

Jars of Clay Love Song for a Savior 08

Diana Krall - Peel Me a Grape

Pete Belasco - Deeper

Rascal Flatts - What Hurts the Most

Cake - Sad Songs and Waltzes

Van - Halen - Hot for Teacher

Counting Crows - Hanging Around

Creed - One

Linkin Park - Frgt

Janet Jackson - Go Deep

Michael Jackson - Thriller

Britney Spears - Breathe on Me

The Black Eyed Peas - Boom Boom Pow

Snoop Doggy Dog - Who Am I

Dr. Dre feat. Xzibit & Eminem - What's the Difference Between Me and You

Mia - Ghetto Superstar

Eminem - Business

Nelly - Country Grammar

Lil Jon & Eastside Boyz - Get Low

Petey Pablo - Freek-A-Leek

Kid Cudi - Day 'n Night

Deadmau5 - Ghost N Stuff

Flux Pavillion - Got 2 Know

Example - Kickstarts (Bar 9 Remix)

Bassotronics - Bass, I Love You

Movie Track List - (Auditioned at -10 Onkyo TX-NR1007 MLV)

Animusic - Last Track with the deep bass

BattleField LA - Ship Thrusters

Book of Eli - Town Square Gunfight

Dolby Digital - Canyon trailer

Dolby Digital - Rain trailer

Drumline - final faceoff

Flight of the Phoenix - initial crash scene

How to Train your Dragon - megadragon bursts through cliff

Hulk - Cop Car Smash - comes out of ground, shockwave, smashes car

Hulk - Sonic Cannon

Iron Man - Jericho Missle

John Mayor Song - Waiting for the World to Change

Kung Foo Panda - Skadoosh scene

Master and Commander - Cannons in ship battle

Matrix Revolutions - Architect voice

Red Cliff - Drum Beats during ship battle scene

Star Wars - Pod Race warmup

Terminator Salvataion - Robot destroys shed

THX - Amazing Life Trailer

Titan AE - Ice Field

Transformers 3 - Bumblebee Highway Flip

Tron Legacy - entering club scene

War of the Worlds - Pod emerges

Increased volume to -4 on Onkyo TX-NR1007 MLV on the following two clips for each audition(all other clips previous were listened to at -10MLV)

Black Hawk Down - Helicopter Rotor Subsonics

U-571 - Depth Charges
 
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#703 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp /forum/post/22089167


Haha, you know what my opinion is on this...



The only way I know of (since I haven't heard all the great DIY options out there) to get the car audio crazy bass experience in your house is to buy a couple of Orbit Shifters. The Orbit Shifters are the only home subs I have heard that seemed to affect my breathing and I'm not exaggerating. I found my limits for the first and only time with the OS's and this is coming from a guy that is not satisfied with dual Submersives in a 3000 cu ft room. That doesn't mean I don't love them, I just want more headroom.


Agreed, something wasn't right if the output wasn't enough.

Duals is not enough, quads at a minimum ...
 
#704 ·
Lol - I am a bass nut, what can I say?


I am the friend that Archea is referring to. I have researching subs this year and really would like to figure out which dual sub combo is best for home theater, in the $4,000 or less category. First, a little history of my listening experiences thus far:

My first and only subwoofer that I ever owned from 2007-2007: M&K Professional MPS 5410 (Dual 12" 400 Watt Push/Pull System).

First subwoofers heard this year: TJHUB's dual DIY LMS-5400's (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lp's and Seaton Catalyst 12C's for L/C/R).

Subs heard at JTR's Open House: Dual Cap 1000's and Dual Orbit Shifters (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lps for L/C/R)

Subs heard at warpdrv's GTG: 3 dual opposed DIY LMS-5400's (6 drivers total) in 36" tall cabinets (Heard with Paradigm Signature S8's L/R and Signature C5 center channel).

Subs heard at lbrown105's house on 2 occassions: Single Orbit shifter plus other/smaller subs in system (Heard with JTR Triple 12 HT-lp's L/R and Triple 8 HT-lp for center channel)


Now, to break down my listening experiences of the above subs, I have heard the DIY LMS-5400's sound fantastic, but have also experienced them bottom out due to being pushed too hard in bass heavy scenes. For that reason and also due to not having enough know-how with a DIY project, I have focused on name brand subwoofers by 2 primary companies: JTR and Seaton.


Thus far, I have only had the pleasure of listening to 2 of the JTR subs in different listening environments. I heard dual Cap 1000's and then dual Orbit Shifters at the JTR Open House. There is no doubt that the dual Orbit Shifters produced huge SPL, but my feeling at the time was that the dual Cap 1000's were better integrated into the JTR system. It was my feeling at the time that dual Orbit shifters may have been too much for the room, and that the demo room that we heard the movie clips could have benefited from acoustical treatments. It appeared to me that this crossed the line between having too much bass and was just not comfortable to listen to.


I was fortunate to meet a board member at the JTR open house who has JTR speakers, a single Orbit Shifter, along with a few other subs integrated in his sealed room. He has quite a few acoustical treatments in his room and a fantstic demo space, but it should be noted that he does not have Audyssey room correction. In any event, his Orbit Shifter is doing its thing in his room, but for my tastes, I would want even more bass.


So, thus far, my experience in different settings are that the Orbit Shifters can produce scary SPL levels if pushed to it. At the same time, I have heard 2 Orbit Shifters seem like too much in a non-treated room and 1 shifter seem like not quite enough in a well-treated room without Audyssey.


I have been attempting to arrange a demo with dual Seaton Submersives, which I have yet to hear. I am hoping for the opportunity to hear them in the next month or so, but I am wondering if the Submersives won't be enough to satisfy me when I know that there are bigger brothers being worked on: Terraform XL and the Submersive XL.


If there is such a thing, as carp suggests, as there being less head-room with the Submersives, I have to think that this would be a non-issue with 6,000 watt Goliath monster subwoofers
 
#705 ·
Hmmm.... saying I'm not satisfied may give people the wrong impression. The bass can get crazy in here and probably more than most sane people would ever want. I just want the bass sound quality that I have but also combine with that the ability to experience output like the OS's on the rare occasion that I want that (usually to show the system off
). Yeah, I think the solution will be to someday buy xl's, terraforms, or sealed Cap 2's.


Long ways off though. It would help if I stopped reading posts on the forum!


BTW, as I post this I'm listening to the first Audioslave album and the bass is ridiculously good.
Love these subs.
 
#706 ·
Be mindful Alex that the room character will dictate your experience as much or more than the subwoofer.


Tell that friend with the single jtr orbit shifter to crank the gain about 6 or 10 dB and listen again. If integrated even half heartidly, one should not be underwhelmed in any mortal room by a single orbit shifter.
 
#707 ·
We did test out some bass heavy material, including the scenes in the movie "Pulse" and "Cloverfield" last time I was there. I don't think he has the gain turned up on the subwoofers. I will have to see if he is willing to really crank it up if I can impinge upon his hospitality for another time
 
#708 ·
I bought an Orbit Shifter.


I just couldn't help myself after hearing (and feeling) the OS at the meet. So I recently put in an order with Jeff. I said I bought "an" Orbit Shifter. As in singular. My sealed room is 2700 cubes and I think it will be plenty.


I did the room layout service and the plan calls for one powerful high output sub behind my false wall and another low/moderate output sub relatively near field alongside the second row seating for smoothing purposes. We will see if my Rythmik F12 can be made to function in that role after installing Audessey Pro on my Denon 4311. I may need to get a more powerful second sub to serve as a room mode smoother. I can't wait to find out.


I really can't imagine needing more output if you are corner loading in a small sealed room with a second sub to smooth response and a good bass calibration.
 
#709 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/0


I bought an Orbit Shifter.


I just couldn't help myself after hearing (and feeling) the OS at the meet. So I recently put in an order with Jeff. I said I bought "an" Orbit Shifter. As in singular. My sealed room is 2700 cubes and I think it will be plenty.


I did the room layout service and the plan calls for one powerful high output sub behind my false wall and another low/moderate output sub relatively near field alongside the second row seating for smoothing purposes. We will see if my Rythmik F12 can be made to function in that role after installing Audessey Pro on my Denon 4311. I may need to get a more powerful second sub to serve as a room mode smoother. I can't wait to find out.


I really can't imagine needing more output if you are corner loading in a small sealed room with a second sub to smooth response and a good bass calibration.

I think it's either gonna be hit or miss with using the F12 in the rear. Most likely I bet it will be pointless and if anything will hold you back in terms of getting the most out of your shifter.


You do have Audyssey HT sub EQ tho in that receiver I believe so at least when doing your testing you will be setting it up the best and most efficient way possible. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with when you do your testing. My vote is you end up selling the F12 because the Shifter will be more than enough in that size room.
 
#712 ·
I am anticipating that it will be difficult to get enough clean output from the F12 to use it to smooth the frequency response. Not impossible but difficult. I am told the sub EQ in the Audessey XT32 with Pro is very very good and gives you the ability to adjust the gain quite a bit. I know that the QSC DSP 322 offers even more flexibility but it is a good bit of coin at $3500. I would rather just get a sub that is easier to integrate than go that direction.


Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.


So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.
 
#713 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp /forum/post/22089648


Hmmm.... saying I'm not satisfied may give people the wrong impression. The bass can get crazy in here and probably more than most sane people would ever want. I just want the bass sound quality that I have but also combine with that the ability to experience output like the OS's on the rare occasion that I want that (usually to show the system off
). Yeah, I think the solution will be to someday buy xl's, terraforms, or sealed Cap 2's.


Long ways off though. It would help if I stopped reading posts on the forum!


BTW, as I post this I'm listening to the first Audioslave album and the bass is ridiculously good.
Love these subs.

I think that if you experienced properly setup (OS's) in a treated room you might have a different take. They can play as cleanly as any sub I have owned/heard (including the Sub-HP) but have massive capability 15Hz and above. Terraform XL's will likely move the bar but for the time being, the OS is the alpha commercial sub ... IMO
 
#714 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/22091317


Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.


So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.

What color is the driver of the F12? I could maybe use it for a project but am not really interested in the enclosure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! /forum/post/22091507


I think that if you experienced properly setup (OS's) in a treated room you might have a different take. They can play as cleanly as any sub I have owned/heard (including the Sub-HP) but have massive capability 15Hz and above. Terraform XL's will likely move the bar but for the time being, the OS is the alpha commercial sub ... IMO

The time we heard it, sometimes you could hear the walls and vents resonate more than the OS.
 
#715 ·
In carps defense he was at the blind meet and picked the sub that sounded best to his ears in fairly level playing field. The top four subs all received remarkably similar scores. (A couple percentange points difference between first and fourth when averaged over nine peoples blind score). Despite the overall similarity in scores some people still found pretty clear affinities towards one alignment or the other. For instance carp liked sealed (and huskeromaha loved ported). ;p. They might not have been able to tell what alignment it was as it was auditioned, but their score cards seem to note a preference. As to a treated room - In a better room all the subs would have sounded better until they reached their individual limits. True, orbit shifters would still set that spl max bar quite high! And I'm not taking anything away from the mighty orbit shifter. Just saying individual preferences still make account.
 
#716 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/0


I am anticipating that it will be difficult to get enough clean output from the F12 to use it to smooth the frequency response. Not impossible but difficult. I am told the sub EQ in the Audessey XT32 with Pro is very very good and gives you the ability to adjust the gain quite a bit. I know that the QSC DSP 322 offers even more flexibility but it is a good bit of coin at $3500. I would rather just get a sub that is easier to integrate than go that direction.


Maybe I can make up for some output by placing the F12 near field. The OS will be around 14 feet and the F12 will be around 8 feet.


So if the F12 doesn't show up to the fight (and I still need another sub to use to smooth the room modes) what do you guys suggest as a second sub that has enough output to do the job. Keep in mind the second sub will be in the room next to the second row so it would be great if it could look decent. And the sub really does not need to have the same raw output or go as deep. It just has to serve to take care of room modes and smooth the frequency response at the listening positions.

I think you will be fine with the one orbit shifter but if your really hung up on having two subs then....I hate to say it but maybe return the orbit shifter for two caps?? I'm not trying to start a controversy just an idea.
 
#717 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny /forum/post/0



What color is the driver of the F12? I could maybe use it for a project but am not really interested in the enclosure.


The time we heard it, sometimes you could hear the walls and vents resonate more than the OS.

I will check to see what color the driver is when I get home. It was already suggested to me that I could switch out the rythmik driver and amp for a higher quality DIY driver and a more powerful amp to achieve greater spl while keeping the look of the piano gloss black cabinet and small size of the enclosure. People in the know expressed that by removing the servo the results could be satisfactory. So I may look into that. But I may also decide I just need a bigger everything and sell the whole thing and stuff a bigger second sub in the back corner.
 
#718 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 /forum/post/0



I think you will be fine with the one orbit shifter but if your really hung up on having two subs then....I hate to say it but maybe return the orbit shifter for two caps?? I'm not trying to start a controversy just an idea.

The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.
 
#719 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/22091801


I will check to see what color the driver is when I get home. It was already suggested to me that I could switch out the rythmik driver and amp for a higher quality DIY driver and a more powerful amp to achieve greater spl while keeping the look of the piano gloss black cabinet and small size of the enclosure. People in the know expressed that by removing the servo the results could be satisfactory. So I may look into that. But I may also decide I just need a bigger everything and sell the whole thing and stuff a bigger second sub in the back corner.

Okay thanks. Yes, if you are looking for more SPL from that enclosure, you will need a driver with more throw, more wire, and also more amp. I hooked my driver up non-servo fashion into my old enclosure before I destroyed the box. It kind of reminds me of the 15" Dayton Reference driver I heard locally.
 
#720 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/22092062


The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.

I vote for the dual S2 setup. Bangin.

The OS are so incredible. Brainsuckingout potential.

That is what I'm trying to copy (dual S2). So far unsuccessfully due to supply.


Archaea I think is just jealous we all got to listen blind and fumble around in the darkness of trying to pick and justify what we heard. I still think Archaea is a closet sealed fan. I think he has an order of LMS drivers sitting in his garage under that race car project of his.


Whens the next GTG?
 
#721 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha /forum/post/0



I vote for the dual S2 setup. Bangin.

The OS are so incredible. Brainsuckingout potential.

That is what I'm trying to copy (dual S2). So far unsuccessfully due to supply.


Archaea I think is just jealous we all got to listen blind and fumble around in the darkness of trying to pick and justify what we heard. I still think Archaea is a closet sealed fan. I think he has an order of LMS drivers sitting in his garage under that race car project of his.


Whens the next GTG?

Well yeah dual s2 would be amazing and with incredible extension. I am afraid it breaks the bank though. If going DIY why not do 4 single cap s and have more placement options. You can always co locate if you want.
 
#722 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedimastergrant /forum/post/22092062


The os has not shipped yet and I did think about dual cap sealed. It would be quite a bit more money than one os though. It would be more output below 20hz but less over 20hz I would guess and I want to get the over 20hz priority. Then there is always 2 passive ported caps which is excellent bang for the buck but I must admit it is difficult for me to think about giving up the extension even though it really is of secondary importance to me. Anyway I am going to roll with the os and see what frequency response I get with it alone and then attempt to add a second sub as needed.


hmmph -- as long as you are still not cemented into a decision ---


You should come over and hear the Captivator Pro passive pair with the Crown XLS-5000 amp before you rule them out.



Crown's 5000 watts vs. the Behringer's 3000 watts you heard at the meet.


I'm free tomorrow afternoon or evening --- then we could head over to Luke's to hear the Crystal Audio stuff.
 
#723 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea /forum/post/22092975


hmmph -- as long as you are still not cemented into a decision ---


You should come over and hear the Captivator Pro passive pair with the Crown XLS-5000 amp before you rule them out.



Crown's 5000 watts vs. the Behringer's 3000 watts you heard at the meet.


I'm free tomorrow afternoon or evening --- then we could head over to Luke's to hear the Crystal Audio stuff.

Anytime after 6:30pm works for me if you guys want to come over.


Grant, I say to try out the f12 since you already have it, then wait a while and get a second OS LFU. Below that horns tuning I believe it acts like a sealed sub. Adding a second same sub will add more headroom below 20hz as well as smooth response with easier integration.

Per Jeff.


Output below 20hz:

1) Captivator S

2) Orbit Shifter LF

3) Captivator


Put it standing up or on its side like on the second or third picture here against your side wall in the back corner.

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...right)-5670205


Let's face if you keep reading here you will want to get something every once in a while.
If it looks out of place maybe you can spice it up with one of Jonathon's Justin Beiber posters.
 
#725 ·
You know you want to hear that Bieber clip of yours on the Orbit Shifter! I think I do too. Did I just say that? Not that there is anything wrong with that. (Hopefully somebody got the Seinfeld reference)


We just got home from a big family wedding so let me ask my wife tomorrow for clearance to be gone for awhile. I might only have time to go to one place though and I need to bring those fabric samples over to Luke's. I want to have both of you take a look at my basement before I do anything in case you have some more ideas. I will be on vacation this week so any day will work.


I will get back with you guys but I am pretty sure we can do something.
 
#726 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha /forum/post/22092214


Whens the next GTG?

I just finished a system that sounds better than anything I've heard yet. Are you getting more drivers in soon? We could do a subwoofer tour in Omaha in the next month or so with your subs and mine.
 
#727 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome /forum/post/22098285


I just finished a system that sounds better than anything I've heard yet. Are you getting more drivers in soon? We could do a subwoofer tour in Omaha in the next month or so with your subs and mine.

this post is worthless without pics




Let's see the infinite baffle setup!
 
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