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Anamorphic encoded Blu-Rays on the Horizon !

19K views 129 replies 30 participants last post by  Cam Man 
#1 ·
Hey Folded Space... Any news you can share? We would LOVE to see some 1080 anamorphic content!


What can we do to help?
 
#77 ·
Oppo have had the second video chip in all their designs since the BDP-83 to act essentially as an independant scaler when needed. Oppo has to do things that the other manufacturers don't, to justify the price point, but with the 103 they removed the scaling that the 83 and 93 can do. But I think there's still a chance they'll add it back.
 
#79 ·
Hello all -


Thought I'd drop in with a quick comment or two and post to both threads. Merging both into one might be a good idea



We are still presenting this technology to the major studios. As you might guess, the heavy holiday film release schedule - and then the holidays themselves - diverted the studio's attention from our process for a bit (that plus CES, which most of the studios participate in to some degree). One of the studios is moving to advanced testing, which should happen in the next few weeks.


Challenges have been that studios would need to create a 2.37:1 master, which complicates work flow, plus BD-J concerns (how will menus and subtitles display).
 
#80 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22887877



Challenges have been that studios would need to create a 2.37:1 master, which complicates work flow, plus BD-J concerns (how will menus and subtitles display).

Good to hear this is still happening. I don't think a 2.37:1 master is that much of an issue (apart from some new gear including 2.37:1 monitors) and menus can float in the centre 16:9 portion which ensures compatibility with those wanting to use the side crop 16:9 feature.
 
#81 ·
For 4k Blurays they should just encode the aspect ratio into the header and let the player decide how to display it (i.e. all movies should be encoded anamorphically). It's really sad to waste image quality / resolution like that. But I certainly like this tech, hopefully they'll go for it and we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
 
#82 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22893760


Good to hear this is still happening. I don't think a 2.37:1 master is that much of an issue (apart from some new gear including 2.37:1 monitors) and menus can float in the centre 16:9 portion which ensures compatibility with those wanting to use the side crop 16:9 feature.

FYI, none of the studios so far have been keen on the "side crop 16:9" feature. In some ways, I am happy that they are being purists about maintaining the correct aspect ratio of the motion picture. On the other hand, years of experience training folks on film aspect ratios and why the "black bars" are there has taught me that there is a HUGE demand out there for a cropped format. They would simply sell more Blu-rays if they included it.


Most of the pushback has been around subtitles. Since they are actually graphics that need to be intelligently placed, there needs to be separate subtitle tracks for each format AND in each language. All of those subtitle tracks also need to be QC'd in real time. Not insurmountable stuff, but it is amazing what you learn once you start digging into this stuff
 
#83 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22898840


Most of the pushback has been around subtitles. Since they are actually graphics that need to be intelligently placed, there needs to be separate subtitle tracks for each format AND in each language.

I can foresee this being an issue for Warner Bros, which still insists on placing subtitles in the black letterbox bar.
 
#84 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22900243


I can foresee this being an issue for Warner Bros, which still insists on placing subtitles in the black letterbox bar.
Unless the STs are hard burned into the image, this is not a problem. Films with STs burned in have them in the picture anyway All generated text floats over the image and why players like OPPO and Phillips can now move it.


There are 4 modes and if Folded Space works the way I believe it will, it won't matter because these STs should now float over the picture when used in the 2560 x 1080, the 1920 x 1080 anamorphic and the 1920 x 1080 centre crop modes. In 16:9 cropped mode, the STs should do the same as they would for either 21:9 or anamorphic mode. The only mode the STs will sit in the letter box will be the letter box mode. Hopefully John S can confirm that.
 
#85 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22992383


Unless the STs are hard burned into the image, this is not a problem. Films with STs burned in have them in the picture anyway All generated text floats over the image and why players like OPPO and Phillips can now move it.


There are 4 modes and if Folded Space works the way I believe it will, it won't matter because these STs should now float over the picture when used in the 2560 x 1080, the 1920 x 1080 anamorphic and the 1920 x 1080 centre crop modes. In 16:9 cropped mode, the STs should do the same as they would for either 21:9 or anamorphic mode. The only mode the STs will sit in the letter box will be the letter box mode. Hopefully John S can confirm that.

I think John's point is that the studio dictates where the subtitles go and what they look like. A company like Folded Space is not allowed to alter that without the studio's direction and permission. This is considered an artistic decision. That's why so few Blu-ray players offer the ability to move subtitles.


Unfortunately, Warner keeps stubbornly clinging to the notion that subtitles belong in a letterbox bar.
 
#86 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_22993918


I think John's point is that the studio dictates where the subtitles go and what they look like.

And the Studios can. If they want the STs in the bottom 12.5% of the image, fine with me because this technology will then give you a 4 way solution -

1. Letterboxed 16:9 with STs in the black bars

2. Centre cropped 1920 x 1080 image with STs along the base of the image

3. Anamorphic Image 1920 x 1080 image with STs along the base of the image

4. Full 2560 x 1080 image with STs along the base of the image (inside the 16:9 portion).
 
#87 ·
Actually, you are both correct. The issue with subtitles is a bit more complicated than most of us realize. I certainly didn't before I got involved in this!


Having four different versions of the movie on one disc can mean four different subtitle streams, all of which are separate graphics streams that need to be created, placed properly, and QC'd. For example, the letterboxed version of the movie needs one subtitle stream placed in a specific location (in or out of the letterbox bars, it matters not for purposes of this discussion), the anamorphic version needs another anamorphically stretched set placed properly within the picture, the cropped version another set that fits within the 16:9 space, etc. And each of those different streams need to be re-created for each language on the disc as well.


Again, these are not insurmountable issues, just challenges that need to be overcome
 
#88 ·
I'm sorry, apart from politics (or someone's over inflated ego), I don't see why this is an issue at all.


When you go the cinema, the STs are placed in the picture. End of story, nothing more to discuss. Why should that change just because the film is being transferred to home video?


Yes, in the days of SD video on DVD, the STs may have been easier to read on the black bars. In HD, text is perfectly legible in the picture just like it is in the cinema.


Lets go back to SD for bit. The first player (possibly the only player at the time) to shift STs was the Samsung I used to use. The truth is, it didn't actually shift anything. On an XY axis plot, the STs never moved. The image behind was vertically stretched and this gave the impression that the STs had been moved up into the picture. This is why the STs appeared stretched in the screen grabs I did a few years back (of STAR WARS). The anamorphic lens was optically expanding the image including the STs.


With a BD, and either the OPPO or Phillips players, the STs do indeed move up or down and the end user decides where they will go. So much for Artistic Intent.


With Folded Space (and my image below), there is no need to shift the STs any more. The Studios will have the final say as to where they want them and the system will work around that assuming Folded Space can be encoded as 2560 x 1080 pixels. The following should show the options for the user and it won't matter if "artistic" decisions decide the place the STs in the black bars of the letter box mode or not. For reference, the left tip of the T in SUBTITLES should be at 800 x 600 pixels on an XY axis from the top left of the image in all the cases except the ANAMORPHIC example where I have horizontally squeezed the text to simulate ANAMORPHIC MODE.







MODE 1 [Image 1]

FULL SCOPE at 2560 x 1080 which will map 1:1 on a display with 2560 x 1080 pixels. NB: The current Phillips 21:9 can not map this image 1:1 it can only take 1920 x 1080 as an input.

MODE 2 [Image 2]

ANAMORPHIC WIDE SCREEN and the version all us A-lens users want. This is what the anamorphic mode would look like mapped 1:1 on a 2560 x 1080 display. The image itself would be 1920 x 1080 and sit in the middle of 2560 x 1080. I've added the back side pillars to show this. The trick will be mapping the centre 1920 x 1080 at 1:1 on a 1920 x 1080 display because when I made this image 2560 x 1080 and displayed it, my system scaled it to be letter boxed. So maybe the decode chip in the player discards everything outside the centre 1920 x 1080 image to allow 1:1 pixel mapping.

MODE 3 [Image 3]

CENTER CROPPED this allows the screen of a 16:9 (1920 x 1080) display to be filled without black bars. The sides of the original image would be cropped off. You can see this in the planets missing that are visible in Image 1 and this mode would keep all the 16:9 users that don't care about OAR very happy.

MODE 4 [IMAGE 4]

LETTER BOXED This is who it would look on a standard HD display allowing backwards compatibility with all current HT systems.


So based on the above, there is no where else for the STs to go in the first three of the modes of Folded Space.


Disclaimer: This post is based on my understanding of the technology and may not be 100% correct.
 
#89 ·
Are there really that many movies out there that have STs? Why can't you just start off with releasing the larger percentage of movies (ones without STs) and continue to work out the issue of the STs with the studios while proving to them that there is a market for your product?


-Sean
 
#90 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 230-SEAN  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_23013944


Are there really that many movies out there that have STs? Why can't you just start off with releasing the larger percentage of movies (ones without STs) and continue to work out the issue of the STs with the studios while proving to them that there is a market for your product?


-Sean

If you think about it, essentially all movies have subtitles of some kind, as most movies are released with French and Spanish subtitles at a minimum. Otherwise you limit your release to US only. With Folded Space, the intent is to offer greater flexibility for compatibility with the greatest variety of systems, rather than the other way around.


The other issue is that some of the most popular series, such as the STAR WARS, STAR TREK, and James Bond series, all have rather extensive subtitles.
 
#91 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_23014024


If you think about it, essentially all movies have subtitles of some kind, as most movies are released with French and Spanish subtitles at a minimum. Otherwise you limit your release to US only. With Folded Space, the intent is to offer greater flexibility for compatibility with the greatest variety of systems, rather than the other way around.


The other issue is that some of the most popular series, such as the STAR WARS, STAR TREK, and James Bond series, all have rather extensive subtitles.

Ok, that makes sense. I was thinking like a selfish American, lol, as I would never use Spanish or French subtitles. That would pretty much be a deal breaker for me to watch a movie if I had to read the whole thing in subtitles, lol. Well, as soon as you guys get these things out I will be building my future library with them and possibly even rebuilding my current library.


-Sean
 
#92 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/60#post_23014024



The other issue is that some of the most popular series, such as the STAR WARS, STAR TREK, and James Bond series, all have rather extensive subtitles.

The BD releases of these films all seem to have STs in the active image.
 
#93 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 230-SEAN  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/90#post_23014130


That would pretty much be a deal breaker for me to watch a movie if I had to read the whole thing in subtitles, lol.

You're missing out on some of the greatest movies ever made.
 
#95 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/90#post_23017500


You're missing out on some of the greatest movies ever made.

Yeah, even though most foreign film on DVD/BD have the option to select English soundtracks and turn the STs off, there are some films like RUN LOLA RUN (not scope unfortunately) that should be watched with STs on and the original soundtrack.
 
#96 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/90#post_23020930


What's your top 3 Josh?

Cheers, Scott

Ever, or currently available on Blu-ray?


I don't like to rank things, but about half of the titles released by the Criterion Collection would be good candidates. Fellini's '8 1/2' is a particular favorite of mine.


Kind of getting off topic here, though.
 
#98 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/90#post_23022411


I meant current on Blu-Ray. I've become a HD snob I guess. No need to rank, just looking for some pointers for some favorites. I've never cared for ST either, but I'm open minded if oyu have some specifics you think are worthy of consideration for a no-ST guy

Hard to say without knowing your taste in movies.
 
#99 ·
Just when I was getting really interested in this Folded Space thing our Expert has gone AWOL .


I wonder what's going on behind closed doors ?



Scott...............
 
#101 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann  /t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/90#post_23237500


Still under consideration from several major studios. The issue right now is that 4K is the current "bright shiny ball" and therefore where most of the attention is focused...

While it may not use the technique(s) y'all have come up with for encoding, it would probably be prudent to discuss an anamorphic mode for any 4K Blu-ray format upgrade. Meaning, while they have the spec open and it would require new(er) hardware and firmware to support at all, adding 2.35 native support (ala 16x9 mode from DVD) might not be such a big deal... Adding anything later, of course, is much more difficult.


Would love to see a solution regardless of the implementation!


Jeff
 
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