Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 102

Malouff, I did misunderstand. That would eliminate the time discrepancy. It would have to be a cheap and easy software solution or us to see it in an upgrade.

The "TR-40" project was scrapped altogether. It was replaced by the "DTVPAL" before ever reaching the distribution stage.
If the units that were produced (supposedly they were) ever see the light of day (most likely they never will), it's very likely that they'll be riddled with problems (perhaps even more than the "DTVPAL"). Knowing Dish Network and their known desire to screw the public, their attitude will be "who cares"......people are getting them basically for free anyway!......
What a novel idea!......instead of them simply trashing the units that were produced, they could sell them at a profit and have us trash them instead!!
Definitely fits the Dish Network mold!!

......who knows, perhaps they'll be re-badged and show up under a different name (distributed by another company) so that Dish Network wont have to suffer the embarrasment they have with the "DTVPAL"!
The plot thickens......

Either way......BUYER BEWARE!!!!

If the timer is important, then a manual clock makes the timer usable. It may drift off slowly, just like an old VCR, but it would not have to be very good to hold a minute a month (my Timex wrist watch stays within a couple of seconds a month) which means that if you added a couple of minutes at the beginning and end and you reset the clock once a month, you should have a reliable tuner to front end an old VCR.

If you keep the converter clock accurate, and that is the one that the converter uses for the guide function, the guide function should also work better.
If the PSIP time is quite fast, the current program may already have been deleted from the PSIP data when the converter tuned the station, and in that case, the program information for the current program would be unavailable. However, if the box happened to pick up the program information earlier, the box would not delete the information until the program is really over and it would be able to display the correct program information. The program information displayed would be incorrect if the box used the PSIP time.
If the station time was quite slow and the box time was correct, the box would be able to display the current program information correctly if it used the box time, but not if it used the PSIP time.

For the PSIP based guide to be completely reliable, the program information and PSIP time must both be correct. That is, of couse, the way it should be.
Still, as I see it, a manually set clock would allow the timer and guide to both work better if the PSIP times are not accurate, which is currently the case in Denver metro, and seems to be the case in a lot of other areas.

The Pal (as is) uses the currently tuned station's PSIP time for everything it does. The currently tuned station's PSIP time is gospel.
No matter how fast or how slow the currently tuned stations PSIP time is, the Pal considers it correct time.

It then could use the wrong time to access the guide incorrectly or fool the timers.

If a manual clock set option was used, it may be as simple as swaping the manual set time for the currently tuned station's PSIP time.
Then the Pal would consider the manually set time gospel, and use it for everything it does.
The guide time and info would be as accurate as the manually set time.

If stations start the events on time (which they generally do) that would work the same as everyone currently using a manually set VCR clock.

If the manual clock is incorrect, you get blamed not Dish.


No.

All CECB's download EPG data. The difference between brands is how much of it the user can see. Some boxes only show "now next".
The same PSIP guide data is sent to all boxes in a particular region and is separate of the time PSIP.

The individual stations PSIP guide data (not unlike the PSIP time) could fail. Then that channel will show "no information", but still have the correct time.

Beeper

Some of this is a rehash of a point that I brought up previously in one of my timer tests.

We know that some users are probably having a power disruption after setting the timers and don't realize it.

After a power disruption, the Pal will green light boot for 20-25 seconds when power is restored and then shut itself off.
The next time it is turned on, the guide quickly downloads.

Other than during the initial setup or re-setup, this is the only time that the user should see the guide download message box.
This may have something to do with moving the box location to a different city and it is checking if the guide still matches the found stations where it was last, and alert the user to redo setup. I haven't tested that theory yet, but I will be.

It has not been determined exactly where the power disruption occurred. As I brought up in the past, the power disruption could be line voltage (outlet), or Pal power supply voltage malfunctioning.

Two things have held the door open for the latter.

1. One user that has battery backup, has the power disruption symptoms and problems.

2. I have two Pals that were both operational. One of them (only once) downloaded the guide when turned on, signaling that the power was disrupted.

Do some Pals have malfunctioning power supplies? Very possible.

Beeper

Some users live in areas where tuneable stations straddle two time zones.

Also, some users live in areas where tuneable stations may or may not be on daylight savings time.

Individual station PSIP clock time solves those situations by sending each individual station's time to your box, so you see the correct data.
If ...... their clock is accurate.

Beeper

it just seems that a lot of the commentary on this thread goes back to the recurring theme that the Dish CSRs don't always provide correct information . . . my guess it that the culture there tells them that it's preferable to make a guess than to tell the customer that they don't have an answer . . . . if you're going to wait to see if they were disinforming, you might want to call back and see if you get the same story from another CSR . . . that could save you a wait . . . .

I have now been successful at getting two out of three local stations to correct their PSIP clock time.

I emailed them and kindly explained that,

The PSIP clock signal in your digital broadcast is incorrect and causes the wrong program information to be shown on a digital tuner.

Please forward to the appropriate department. Thank you.

Copy and paste that message in your email addressed to the stations "engineering" email address or whatever email address is available.

Look at your local stations website contact info or "inside" link for the email addresses.

Both stations corrected the time that evening. One even sent me an email stating that he had checked the stations PSIP clock, found it to be slow by the amount I described and corrected it.

If the station's main channel clock is correct, the sub-channels clock will also be correct.

I now have 11 main channels, with one of them still having PSIP clock time 4 minutes fast.

Beeper

Update: After a follow up email to the third station, they have corrected their PSIP time.

Please see my post #2929 and the question #2932.
Sorry for my not posting this better.

NO! They ALL now have the correct time and the guide programs and times are also correct. Strange and really doesn't make too much sense. It works though!

This only works because the 2 stations are using standard time, while the others use daylight time. Otherwise, it would not work.

Jim

I don't know if this means anything, but I get 3 markets, and the times seem to be the same within each market's channels (other than that stupid PAX), but differ by a minute more or less between markets.

Can't do that, because then what would anybody have to passively complain about anymore?

WHAT
You might want to check your sources before posting that "All CECB's have an EPG" as they don't.

You might want to tell the people who own a Gridlink, Lasonic, Sansonic, Venturer, or Winegard how to access this EPG with whatever hack you found because last I checked these boxes don't have a EPG not even a now/next.

Why did you edit your post?
This morning you were making a suggestion that it would need to compute the time difference and maintain a 3rd clock.

I didn't see why you would have wanted it more complicated.
Not only that but how would you determine the time it takes to tune for the other stations and include that into the time difference.


This is something that we all can agree on

I was just thinking if what I have been reading about the station time and the PSIP guide data that maintaining two internal clocks would solve the problem and be more user friendly.
If it worked than it would also solve a problem for people that border two separate time zones that a manual clock would not address.

Because neither of us is a engineer for these boxes it's all just suggestions at this point.

I am however glad that you did change your original post as it was very confusing and seemed unnecessary to maintain three clocks.

You're the lucky one!

All but one station I tune are about 30 seconds apart from slow to fast.

I think that is as close as it gets for now.

Beeper

Finally got around to teaching my Home Theater Master MX800 all the codes from the DTVPal remote. Still does not work with the fluorescent lighting. Turn off the lights and everything is just fine. The Panasonic TV remote and MX800 both work the TV with the fluorescent lights on.

Based on these tests, it appears that the DTVPal units remote receiver is what is getting thrown off by the fluorescent lighting.

This is another big problem along with the timers (the main reason I wanted the unit). This leaves me with two units which do not operate as advertized.

I bought these direct from the DTVPal web site as my coupons were about to expire almost on the day the units became available. Today, I noticed the site has posted "ALL SALES FINAL." Does this mean I am stuck with products that don't work as advertized!!!

Has anybody tried to return these back to DTVPal/Dish directly?

So on the brands of CECB's that you mentioned above, none of them have the ability to look at program event title or description either?

Sorry, what I mean't was that the EPG data is going into the boxes with the signal.

How much of it that is usable depends on the brand.

In the brands above, apparently not much of it is usable.

Beeper

The three clocks thing was to test you. You passed.

I'm still not following exactly what the "two internal clocks" would do in your suggestion.

Clock # 1 is set manually, and controls what?

Clock # 2 is set how? and controls what?

Beeper

They can only show the Channel Information/Program Information for the current program on the current channel.

So yes the do show the current program's title and description but that is all PSIP data these boxes display the rest must be discarded.

Hiding?

Well, they could be off that way. The only thing I know is that they're within the same minute. I didn't know we were talking seconds.

I've really only set one event timer, and a couple of other ones through the guide that worked OK so far.

Clock #1 is set automatically by the tuned station and is used for the EPG and browse feature.
I other works it remains as-is

Clock #2 is set automatically by the stations in the timer list

Example: you set a timer for 2-1, 9-1
As soon as you set the first timer Clock #2 is set and maintained to 2-1's time.
Once the timer event for 2-1 is completed then Clock #2 is set and maintained for 9-1's time.

So Clock #2 is dedicated only to the timers and set according to the list of events.

I don't get digital yet but according to the posts that I have been reading to me this sounds like it should work.

It should fix the problem with people in that get stations from multiple time zones that a manual clock would not address.

The only problems I can see are.
1. A back to back timer where they are overlapping and would give a conflict
Timer 1 would complete but timer 2 would only give a partial result because of the overlapping.

2. The station time is not related to the stations EPG.
For example: The station says it's 2:00 and at 2:00 "Friends" should be showing if it is then the time and guide are related.

However, if the station says it 2:00 and "Seinfeld" is showing instead of "Friends" then the guide and timer can not be trusted and it would make my idea worthless.

I believe setting both clock #1 and clock #2 automatically would not work because both clocks would only have one way for automatically setting the time from currently tuned station PSIP data that may not be accurate.

Remember, the guide and timer currently get it's gospel time from the currently tuned station PSIP. Both clocks would always have the same time, unless clock #2 was a second PSIP clock time that was available and trusted. (From a single source?)

If a single source trusted PSIP clock time was available, you would use it and forget about using two clocks.

That is why Windows MCE, Dish receivers and Direct TV receivers don't have the time problem. One time source.

Beeper

Clock #1 is set to the currently tuned station.
Clock #2 is set to the scheduled station in the timer list and kept in memory once set.
It should continue keeping time once set like the manual clock on the Zinwell does.

I don't know for sure if Clock #2 can be trusted.
The time and PSIP data are from the same source so I would think they should be in sync and trusted.

I know Cable, Dish, Windows MCE, etc can be trusted because they are all from a single source but OTA PSIP will always have time differences even if it is just a few minutes or seconds.

With the single source of time (manual time) would all of the Guide listings be accurate?

Or the analog-based TVGOS, or TiVo.

Jim,

Not so crazy after all. That sounds like same logic I had to use at the office on two (2 out of 200) XP machines this year in which the MS DST patch would not fix. I had to uncheck the DST and change the time zone from CST to EST.

Question: When the analog stations are cut off, will our analog VCRs still be able to automatically set the time? If not, being able to manually set the time of a converter box with a timer would be the best solution. The time on your VCR is going to drift anyway, so why worry about it if the converter box's time drifts? As far as power outages goes, my VCR won't keep the time after it's been without power for a certain amount of time. Again, it wouldn't matter much what happens with the box's time.

I know there's not a consensus that the latest firmware is less buggy than the earlier one, but when looking at the 18 or so boxes in Sears today, the question came to mind if I might be able to predict which firmware was inside based on the serial numbers? Thanks

I have a $100 Funai VCR from 1996 that I have been using for timed recordings since I bought it. The time is set manually and hasn't drifted more than 30 seconds, and the last time it reset was over 2 years ago. So I don't buy the assumption that manually set clocks are doomed to drift.

I would assume you'd have to manually set the time of the VCR when the analog signal disappears. That's what I've always done anyway. Then you'll need to set your VCR timer to channel 3 (or 4) and the converter box to the channel you want to record. The trick is getting the converter box turned on and tuned to the right station. That works for me now when I tape a late night show daily - I just leave the converter box on, pre-tuned and the shutoff for enough hours to cover throught the end of the recording (3 hours usually does it). But it gets tricky if you're taping shows on multiple channels over several days. Fortunately, I'm home most of the time.

Looking at the Zinwell manual, it has no EPG either.
It also does not appear to have the option of setting it up so the clock sets automatically.
The only positive to this box over the DTVPal are the controls on the box. Then again maybe the Zinwell places PQ and audio as a priority over the whistles and bells of the DTVPal. It will be interesting to see. Maybe simpler will be better.

O.K. that is how I understood the idea.

When clock #2 is stored in the timer memory, I assume that it would be PSIP clock time from that particular channel at the time of the timer set.
No other PSIP source would be available when setting that timer event.

If the station PSIP clock time is inaccurate when setting clock #2 you will still have the same problems as now. Both in the initial channel change time for the first event and the channel change time conflicts between events.

That is because clock #2's time will become gospel for that event. If it is inaccurate, nothing has changed from the status quo.

Why? Continue reading.


Yes, if the manual clock is accurate. Think of it in the following way.

Technically the guide time listings are accurate. They don't change, they are resting in the box ready for use. What changes is the time that the box is told it is at the moment by the currently tuned station PSIP time. Right or wrong, the box has to use that time as gospel for whatever task it is doing.

Just like if you were looking at the guide in a newspaper. The print never changes. If someone tells you that it is 12 noon and asks you what is on a particular channel, but they lied to you. (Really it is 1:00 PM.) You will tell them the wrong information as far as what event is currently on.

Secondly, if they then ask you if you could please tune to a particular event that is on at 12 noon and it is really 1:00 PM, you can't.

All it takes is one currently tuned channel with the wrong (station) PSIP clock time to cause problems.

Each channel's program guide info is sent to the box separately and then compiled on a list that is locked together by the time column.
(Just like you see in the newspaper TV guide.)

So if you tune to that one channel with incorrect time, the box sees all of the channels (in the guide) incorrectly.
(Just like you would if you were looking at the newspaper in the wrong time column.) Just one minute off could give the wrong data.

But, the box isn't programmed to look for "old" events like you could in the newspaper. It only looks for current and future events in the guide.

So if you set a timer for a 30 minute event that starts at 8:00 PM and then tune to a channel that is more than 30 minutes fast, the box can't find the "old" event because it is accessing the guide starting from (what it thinks is) 8:30 PM and beyond. It's blind to everything prior to 8:30 PM in the guide.

Those are the circumstances that will result in a timer being unable to find an event to use, so it considers the task finished and the timer is gone from the list.

That problem would occur immediately after setting a timer for a 30 minute event and then tuning to a channel with PSIP time that is more than 30 min. fast. If you immediately check the timer list, that (incorrectly) used timed event has already vanished.



The option of a manual clock.

(Theory) If you set the box time manually, you would have to replace the current station PSIP time in the timer process with the manually set time
and also swap it in other places where time is used.

Such as, if you wanted the program title banner, description etc. to be accessed correctly timewise, you would also be swaping the times used there, with the manually set time.

Beeper