Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 198

ok a full scan seemed to fix it all. ty

I do the second approach, but I set up weekly timers and since there are only 5 DTVPal timers to program (?!?), I was quickly done with those. I now manually switch most of the time the DTVPal channels and program my DVR to record a particular time slot.

>> I'm a broken record on this, but Dish/Echostar user interfaces/navigation sucks.
Absolutely, especially if you compare it with the nice UI of the Panasonic DVR - it's like day and night... I only hope that at some point I can make the DTVPal transparent (enough), so all switching and programming is done from the DVR. Unfortunately, the DTVPal designers could not even make a simple turn on-off function from the G-Link blaster, so now the tuner needs to be always on in order for the DVR to switch to the appropriate channel when necessary.

Thanks to all who responded on my antenna question. Unfortunately, it's not an issue with the amplifier - it doesn't matter since the two VHF channels (ABC and CBS) are not picked up at all, not even weak. I wouldn't mind setting up a roof-top antenna replacing the DishNetwork one, but some further contradictory reading got me thinking that I may better wait until June: TVFool.com and AntennaWeb.org say my CBS and ABC are on VHF channels 8 and 10, which is in line with the cbs8.com local affiliate page. But then YourFreeDTV.com/SanDiego/ comes up with "there are NO VHF RF Channels in the San Diego Area, so you won't need a bulky VHF Antenna at all." Now I am thinking if the spectrum is being repositioned, I might as well wait a few more months until the dust settles before buying a $200-300 large VHF antenna (needed in my case according to TVFool and AntennaWeb).

BTW, nobody responded to my question whether the digital TVGOS is going to be transmitted only on CBS-affiliated stations around the country or will change in different markets. I tried to search for an answer at Macrovision's web site, but did get anything. Seems to me that TVGOS is generally one of the worst documented services ever! This forum is probably the most comprehensive source of TVGOS information.

The broadcasters and FCC have already settled on which channels everyone will end up on after June 12. San Diego does have two channels on VHF and it will remain this way after the transition.

Your tvfool report indicates these channels are in the "yellow" range (attic antenna or better recommended). A couple of questions:

1) Have you extended the "rabbit ears" part of your antenna? The "loop" picks up UHF channels and the "rabbit ears" pick up VHF channels. You need to extend the rabbit ears elements so that they are the right length for picking up channels 8 and 10 (see this explanation).

2) Have you tried getting the antenna higher or outside facing south-west? With some extra coax and an extension cord (to power the antenna's amp), you can at least check that you can indeed get these two channels.



BTW, VHF antennas should not be that expensive. A Radio Shack VU-90XR should be adequate for your location and costs $65. Even the "huge" Winegard 7698P (168 inches long!) is only $120 from Solid Signal. Many medium to large VHF-only and UHF/VHF combo antennas can be found in the $50 to $100 range.

You'll also need to budget some mounting hardware, coax, and other parts, but the overall cost should still be rather modest.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Andy

That's certainly not anything unusual.

Thanks Andy,
Pretty interesting link to the HDTVPrimer. I have not tried to take my rabbit ears outside (yet), but they are currently spread long indoors without picking up any VHF channel. As previously pointed, I already have a non-used DishNetwork antenna on the side of the house, so the mount and cabling can hopefully be reused...

If I combine a directional VHF antenna with the indoor rabbit ears for UHF, can you point me to a box that merges the two signals with minimal interference?

I have both a DTVPal and an old "universal remote" (from the RCA Home Control Kit who's booklet shows a copyright date of 1996). What I like about the old remote is the lighted keypad. I thought I had seen something here about using the "cable box" section of a universal remote set to "Scientific Atlanta" for controling the Pal; but every reference I have been able to find is in connection with TVGOS and I just want to turn on & off and change channels on the "Pal".

Anyone know if this is possible before I spend a lot of time trying?

Thanks
Jane B.

From 1996 - you might see if there is a listing for Echostar Satellite receivers also.

As mentioned, the SA remote codes don't seem to work for the DTVPal when in normal mode.
I also tried Ecostar codes with an older universal remote without success. Unless it is a learning remote it may not be useful.

No, it only has buttons for TV, VCR, Cable, and the home control for such things as X10.

When you say the rabbit ears are spread long, do you mean that they are spread open 180 degrees? Or did you mean extended?

I found that I get the highest signal when the rabbit ears are spread about 20 to 30 degrees apart (included angle) from both being vertical.

Then slowly rotate the rabbit ears around their axis for the highest signal.

Didn't you originally state that the two stations you can't tune are only about 10 miles away? Is there geographical obstruction?

I think that was my first guess, using the first Zip I came up with for San Diego. But Boris has posted his TVFool results here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...57732ba7cf3402 and that puts him about 15 miles away, in Zip 92128. If you click on either KFMB (CBS) or KGTV (ABC) you'll get a side view of the terrain that shows him in the shadow of a mountain (Carmel Mountain?). His best bet might be to try for a bounce off the hills behind him or to one side.

Also, Boris, what's your house made of? The chicken wire frame used with stucco will knock a signal right out, as will aluminum siding and some kinds of window glass. Even wood will knock it down some. You definitely should try an antenna outdoors, even if it's just rabbit ears on a long cable that you hold up and rotate while someone tells you the result. Or take a small TV and the tuner out with you so you can see what you're doing.

You can use the number keys to navigate the menus.

[MENU] 3 4

Combining VHF and UHF antennas is pretty easy. You just need a diplexer like the UVSJ (like this). It will let you use signals in both bands with minimal loss.

However, since most of your channels are in tvfool's "yellow" range, you really do need to have the antenna higher up (attic or roof) in order to get them. Experimenting with antenna combinations in the living room will probably only yield marginal results at best. If your plan is to get a VHF antenna for the attic/roof, you might as well combine the VHF/UHF up there (or use a combo antenna) and then bring the combined signal directly into your TV. There's no need to have any rabbit ears / loop antenna near the TV if you can get a better antenna higher up (all signals will get better this way).

Signals will get cleaner and stronger as you get the antenna higher because they go through less building material (your own house as well as neighboring structures) and receive less random signal reflections off of surrounding objects.

A UHF antenna pointed at 147º plus a VHF antenna pointed at 209º could be combined via a UVSJ. Alternatively, you could use a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp, which takes separate VHF and UHF inputs, to combine signals that way. This should give you all the major networks very reliably.

Best regards,
Andy

That's what I do now - press menu -> press 3 (setup) -> press 4 (timers) .

Boris, are you in RB?
I am further away in Poway with a hill 200' above and very close to our property running from the southwest to northeast. For years, I have had a pretty decent amplified rooftop antenna with a rotator that picked up analog signals.
However, since the February "transition", CBS channel 8 boosted their digital signal and I can now receive pretty much everything digital (6,8,10,15,39,51,69) with the antenna stationary and pointing west (into the hill). (Previously, I had to rotate to pick up CBS.)
This might suggest that the basic signal strength is there for you and you may just need a better/higher antenna as other posters have suggested.

Thanks guys!
Beeper When you say the rabbit ears are spread long, do you mean that they are spread open 180 degrees? Or did you mean extended?
I meant extended. The angle between the rods is about 20 degrees.

ebo If you click on either KFMB (CBS) or KGTV (ABC) you'll get a side view of the terrain that shows him in the shadow of a mountain (Carmel Mountain?). His best bet might be to try for a bounce off the hills behind him or to one side.
Quite true, unfortunately. There is a small hill next to my house and then a decent "mountain" hill between me and the CBS broadcasting transmitter. I hope it's not too bad - I try a few outdoors experiments over the weekend...

ebo what's your house made of?
You got me here - I don't have much detail though I bought it recently. Anyway, if the outdoors tests work, I already have most of the cabling.

andy If your plan is to get a VHF antenna for the attic/roof, you might as well combine the VHF/UHF up there (or use a combo antenna) and then bring the combined signal directly into your TV.
That's what I'm thinking about, but I would need to place a second UHF antenna outdoors (which I don't have). Do I need some kind of a pre-amp to drive the signal from the antenna to the TV (may be 30-40m)?

John, yes, I am in RB, but you may have a better view to Mount Soledad where the CBS8 transmitter is.

30-40 meters is a pretty long cable run. For that much distance I would definitely recommend a pre-amp like the CM 7777. It would be ideal in your case to have separate VHF and UHF antennas connected to the 7777 since the VHF and UHF stations are (conveniently) grouped in two different directions.

Best regards,
Andy

Bad news: I put my indoors rabbit-ears antenna on my house roof (not at the highest point, but in direction of the VHF channels) and the DTVPal+ did not pick up any new "services". Makes me wonder how can I get a temporary VHF directional antenna as buying one may still not pick up a signal...

BTW, how can I set the DTVPal+ to search only on channel 8 or 10? I went to the "Add new channel", but don't know the channel correspondence and searching for services even on a known channel does not pick up anything.

Hi Boris:
Soledad is blocked for me - I'm off Poway grade in a valley with a steep slope that runs up immediately from the house that blocks everything from southwest to northeast. It is probably a vertical height of 200'. From the top of that slope, I can see Soledad.
Good luck with your antenna experiments. My guess would be that a decent antenna should give you a decent signal.

If you didn't find any new channels with a complete scan, trying to add a single channel generally won't add one either.

In your case, both channels 8 and 10 virtual and real channel numbers match.

To add channel 8 press menu;
Then set up/system set up/channel set up/add a new channel.
Then at the add a new channel screen, the last tuned real channel number will be highlighted;
Use the left or right arrows to show channel 8.
If you don't see a signal of at least 55, a scan probably won't lock a new channel, but you can see if adjusting your antenna helps.

If you have an adequate signal:
Then use the down arrow to highlight the scan button.
Then use the right arrow to start the scan. Wait for it to show stopped.
Then press done to exit.

You might check if your remote can be set to work with a "Dish Network Systems" brand of DirectTV satellite receiver.

I was able to configure my Panasonic DMR-EH75V to communicate with the DTVPal Plus in standard non-TV Guide mode. I added it as a DirectTV satellite receiver. When choosing the brand of receiver I chose "Dish Network Systems".

I did this because the DTVPal TV Guide mode isn't working here and I'm still relying on a directly connected antenna to get analog TV Guide listings from PBS. I figured why not make use of the additional functionality of the DTVPal while I can...

Dish Network remote codes:
776, 1776 (it tries to go to 022-4 for both of these)
1506, 1006, 1171, 1172 (nothing happens)

Just for the sake of testing I tried them all. I had this info in my notes.

776 and 1776 are the first IR Blaster codes it tried. Though I suppose people with different hardware might experience something else.

A word of caution for anyone considering configuring their TV Guide hardware to work with the DTVPal in this manner. It was a royal hassle. I had turn off 200 channels in the channel editor. And assign each the channel number 999 so that I could get them to be sorted out of the way. I'll mention more about this configuration in another message soon.

About the 200 channels having to be turned off in the channel editor when adding the DTVPal as a "Dish Network Systems" brand of DirectTV satellite receiver.

That happened even if I initially configured the TV Guide setup to only support 2-digit channel numbers.

The 2-digit channel number configuration was a trick I found that reduces the number of channels I had to turn off in the channel editor. At least it works when configuring the DTVPal in TV Guide mode as a Scientific Atlanta cable box.

Once the channel listings come in you can go through the setup process again, leaving everything the same, except telling it to support "0028" without losing your listings. And without a bunch more channels being added.

I didn't have success with this 2 digit thing if the channel listings had already come in. It only works if it is set before the first listings come in.

About configuring the TV Guide setup to send channels as "0028". I've found that is the most reliable setting. Otherwise my Panasonic DMR-EH75V causes the DTVPal to trip all over itself.

My Panasonic's IR Blaster will send the channel number twice in a row for a given channel it is supposed to tune to in 3 situations:
1. the Panasonic is turned on.
2. a recording is started of an active show from the TV Guide listings.
3. the second show is about to start for back to back recordings.

So if a channel of 7.3 is supposed to be tuned to the DTVPal will receive 7373 and not do the right thing. Or even if it is configured to send 073 then 073073 will be received. The first 0730 will be seen and then finally just 73 is paid attention to. And this won't do the correct thing either.

But if the Panasonic is configured to always send 4 digits padded with leading 0s then 0073 0073 is sent.

And since the DTVPal in TV Guide mode only has a 4 digit channel number field this just causes it to tune to the same channel twice. The picture skips a little when this happens. But big deal. At least you are recording the correct channel.

In the TV Guide setup the first choices for how to send channel numbers on my Panasonic are:

2 digit numbers:
"28 and enter"
"28"
"028"
"0028" <- this is what I choose.

And once this choice is made the further questions it would ask about how to send 3-digit and 4-digit channel numbers doesn't come up.

Unfortunately when the DTVPal is in normal non-TV Guide mode its channel number field is 5 digits. 123-45. In this case I handle the 3 previously mentioned problem areas like this:
1. I don't care. Or I press [Recall] on the DTVPal remote.
2. I'm ready to press the DTVPal remote's [Cancel] button repeatedly.
3. I make sure 2 minutes separates back to back recordings.

(you can adjust the start and end times of scheduled recordings by pressing the [Submenu] button)
(you can even make these settings so that they are enabled by default. TV Guide Setup > Change Default Options > Record defaults)

PS: I'm curious if people with other hardware experience these same issues.

Oops. I forgot when the DTVPal is in TV Guide mode 7.3 would need to be sent as 173. And in that case having a leading 0 added would be sufficient. And 0173 being received twice would be fine. (sorry for sending so many messages... I've been working on this stuff for a while now, and I have all this pent up info that I've not seen mentioned before. (I should've started posting sooner. I got my DTVPal Plus on February 18th)

In message #5931 I said I'll mention the configuration in another message soon.

When configuring my Panasonic to see the DTVPal as a "Dish Network Systems" brand of DirecTV satellite receiver the channel numbering was a problem. That is until I looked in the manual of the DTVPal and found you have to pad the channel numbers with leading zeros so that the Pal always receives 4 digits numbers.

5.1 -> 0051
11.3 -> 0113

(update: you can see some more info about setting these channel numbers in the channel editor in message number #5957 at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16257172)

About sorting channels in the channel editor:
press submenu, keep pressing down arrow until the "more" on the bottom disappears, and then choose "re-sort numerically".

I adopted a practice of giving channels that had been turned on which I don't care about the number 999. And giving channels I might want to try in the future the number 998. That way I have less paging down to do.
(If the channel was already "ON" and set to "Air" you'll have to switch it to "Cable Box" or "DirectTV" before you can give a number of 999. But that's not enough. In the menu on the left you'll also have to switch "input active" to "yes")
(I seem to recall you might have to go into the submenu twice. The first time to assign the 999 number. The second time to set the "input active" part for the entry with the 999 number. The first time the "input active" field is grayed out.)

Speaking of paging up and down. The channel up and down button causes the listing to scroll in pages instead of individaul entries. I suppose this might not be obvious. I don't remember how I learned it. Maybe one of the TV Guide screens says it.

From hearing other people talk it seems that many might not be aware you should be able to add your subchannels besides just .1 to your channel listings. All you have to do is find the "call sign letters".

http://research.backchannelmedia.com/ -> DMA -> Region -> Pacific -> San Francisco-Oak-San Jose

Here's an example of the information I've assembled from there:

dtvpal in non-tvg mode (alpha sort, only not enabled by default are listed):
kcsmd2 dtv 602
kqed air 9
kqed dtv 91
kqedk dtv 544
kqedl dtv 92
kqedw dtv 93
krcb dtv 221
krcb-dt2 dtv 222
kteh2 dtv 542
ktehl dtv 543
v-me dtv 545

dtv is short for DirecTV in the above. One kqed is enabled already. I need to turn on an additional one for my analog TV Guide listings. And for some reason I keep both in this list.

dtvpal in tvg mode (alpha sort, only not enabled by default are listed):
kcsmd2 cb 702
kqed air 9
kqed cb 191
kqedk cb 644
kqedl cb 192
kqedw cb 193
krcb cb 321
krcb-dt2 cb 322
kteh2 cb 642
ktehl cb 643
v-me cb 645

cb is short for Cable Box in the above.

With these lists it makes it much easier to know which channels I need to add. (My lists above aren't complete. There are other non .1 subchannels listed. I restricted it to the PBS channels to make them shorter).

The reason I keep the lists in an alphabetic sort order is because when paging down through the hundreds of entries in the channel editor it makes looking for them easier. Since the many turned off channels are sorted alphabetically.

When I first undertook enabling these subchannels I went through the effort to move them up in the channel editor. So that they wouldn't be hundreds and hundreds of entries away from the other enabled channels. I don't bother anymore. I just re-sort the list numerically as mentioned above. Entries that have an assigned channel number will automatically be moved to the top of the list.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a way to unassign a channel number for a particular entry once it has been assigned. That's why I assign the entries I don't care about the number 999. I do this even though I have the channel turned off.

I found assigning the 999 number to the entries I don't care about should be done before doing the numeric re-sort. Otherwise those channels get intermixed with the channels I care about. I suppose it isn't an absolute necessity though. So you have a cluttered Channel Editor view? Big deal. It is to me.

While I did this manually, I think this is definately something a programmable remote control that has macro capability would be useful for.

I would assign 999 [down arrow] to a button.
I would assign [enter] [enter] [down arrow] to another button.

Then after cursoring to the channel number column of the first entry I want to get rid of in the channel editor I would start repeatedly pressing the first of those two macro buttons. And then repeat the process for the ON/Auto/OFF column using the second macro button.

I have a question for anyone that has gotten their DTVPal to convert the TV Guide listings from digital to analog and are using the alternate zip code mentioned in the DTVPal manual.

What are the channel listings like?

Does it give the channels the proper numbers for working with the DTVPal?

So that channel 2 shows up in the listings as 121 instead of just 2.

And does it list the subchannels besides just the main .1 channels?
So 2.2 is 122.

How complete is it when compared to the list at:

http://research.backchannelmedia.com/ -> DMA -> your (Region or Time Zone) -> (your or nearby) City

Note the .0 channels it lists don't really exist. That's just their representation of the analog channels. I mean don't bother to make note that they aren't in your TV Guide listings anyway.

update1(I think the following didn't work because the alternate zip that's in the DTVPal manual only works for "Cable Box" and not "Satellite Receiver". So this failed because I had configured the DTVPal as a "Dish Network Systems" DirecTV "satellite receiver" talked about here)

On March 26, 2009 I tried using the alternate zip code even though my DTVPal wasn't converting the digital listings to analog. (I had tried this many times since February 18th when I first got my DTVPal. This is just the last time I tried it and the first time I documented it as well as I did)

For 29 hours the TV Guide setup progress remained stuck at:

[green checkmark] search for time: done: 1:16pm
[green checkmark] search for tv sations with tv guide data: Done
[ red checkmark] search for channel lineup: in progress
[ red checkmark] listings transmission: Begins 9:34am

I finally gave up and switched to my regular zip code.

About 5 hours later when I checked it had changed to:

[green checkmark] search for time: done: 6:55pm
[green checkmark] search for tv stations with tv guide data: done
[green checkmark] search for channel lineup: done
[green checkmark] listings transmission: 9:34am

The unfortunate thing about checking this stuff is that if it doesn't work your only reward will be losing your 8 days of channel listings.

I think anytime the zip code is changed your existing listings will be lost.
(within the last few months I read a message that someone that had their DTVPal converting the listings was able to do so using their regular zip. If this is true it is a relief. I only tried the alternate zip in an effort to reduce the amount of work I needed to do in the channel editor)

Has anyone gotten the alternate zip code to work without their DTVPal also doing the digitial to analog conversion of the TV Guide listings?

I did this test knowing that my "Host Chan" was set to the PBS channel via the directly connected antenna. If I don't have an antenna connected to my Panasonic it is never able to find the TV Guide channel from the DTVPal when it is in TV Guide mode. This is despite my CBS TV Guide channel having a strong signal.

kev4321 I think anytime the zip code is changed your existing listings will be lost.
Not according to my experience - I switched to 00024 (San Diego pseudo-ZIP) and all my local channels retained their TVGOS information, which was obtained from 92128 over the analog. Unfortunately, it seems like my DTVPal+ is not picking up or converting the digital TVGOS to analog since in a few days (like a week), all listings went blank.

The reasons could be (in order of likeliness):
1. Most likely the DTVPal+ does not receive the digital TVGOS because I don't pick up the local CBS affiliate.
2. My DTVPal+ - Panasonic EH55 setup is incorrect - some of the steps in the DTVPal+ manual are not in line with what I see when I try to set up the Panasonic DVR. For example, I was not able to get to a point where the DTVPal+ creates a "virtual service" with only the local channels picked up by the DTVPal+.
3. I cannot keep the DTVPal+ in constant "TVGOS" mode since in that mode I cannot control the converter with its own remote (amazing), I had to turn off that feature after the trials. Perhaps if I keep it for a few days, it might work out... Has anyone been able to control the DTVPal+ simultaneously from its own remote control and through the G-Link? I don't understand why "all digital features" are disabled when DTVPal+ is set to TVGOS support?!?

I set my Pal+ up exactly as specified in the manual. I am receiving perfect guide data from the digital CBS affiliate in Portland, OR. I have all eight days of data and perfect clock times. I have all channels being broadcast showing TVGOS data. (I had to remove a bunch that I will never watch but there is nothing new there. )

I did a writeup on this in the DTVPal Plus thread.

Ok, thanks. Though I feel silly now. I think I experienced that at one point too. But that was before I decided that whenever I was *really* going to make another attempt at getting the TV Guide mode to work I would first reset the TV Guide data on the Panasonic using the simultaneous press of [Channel Up] [Channel Down] buttons on the front of the Panasonic. This blows away your listings and TV Guide settings. But it does leave your recordings on the hard drive intact. The Panasonic manual mentions this. (other hardware apparently have a different procedure)


I talk about getting the non-TV Guide mode to work in message #5931 above. And some of the other messages after it too.

Are you sure you aren't receiving the analog listings from PBS?

You can confirm the special 9 digit number I mention below by looking at page 29 of www.spiffspace.com/TVGOS_Training_Manual.pdf

Here's how I check on my Panasonic:
I press the [Schedule] button.
I press [Up Arrow] to go to the "Service Bar" (top menu).
I press [Left Arrow] to go to "Setup"
I press [Down Arrow] to go to "Change system settings" (don't press [Enter])
with "Change system settings" highlit I enter: 753 159 852 (ignore the spaces)
The TV Guide diagnostic screen appears.
I press [Right Arrow] and the following shows up:

Host Chan 0:0-9
VBI Chan 3:0:113
OTA Lineup 0xACDA
CB Lineup 0x0
Sat Lineup 0x58CB

The "Host Chan" is the channel your TV Guide device is set to get listings from. In mine the initial 0 in front of the ":" indicates this is via the RF jack where I have an antenna directly connected.

The "VBI Chan" is just whatever channel the TV Guide device happens to be currently viewing. The initial 3 is an indication that this is from "IN3" or "input number 3". 113 is channel 11.3. (I have my Panasonic presently configured to work with the DTVPal in non-TV Guide mode)

The different "Lineup" entries have to do with which listings you have chosen (or were automtically chosen). OTA = Over The Air (antenna). CB = Cable Box. Sat Lineup = DirecTV.

Even though my listings are coming in only over the antenna connection it contains the necessary data for all the other services (cable/directv) too.

Poking around in the TV Guide diagnostic screens is harmless. You press the arrow keys (in all directions) to go through the different screens. The section-subsection you are in is mentioned at the top of the screen. Just press [Return] to exit. Or it will timeout after 5 minutes.

Anyway, your "Host Chan" should be one of the ones listed on:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos
if you are really getting TV Guide listings from the DTVPal.