Dish DTVPal / Echostar TR40 digital to analog converter - Page 32

I think that was a reference to subchannels, Malouff.

Upgrade: tell me if I'm wrong, because I don't remember anymore. But I don't think the TR40 was advertised as having external power source until the design changed. And of course there is the box shrink, presumably made possible by the external power source. I don't recall the TR40 specifically being tied to g-link, or even to TVGOS, which was referenced in the CNET TR50 video and people assumed it applied equally to TR40.

Dave, thanks for the man. scans, man! Your "work" is highly appreciated!!

I guess it didn't answer anything definitively, but it's still very interesting. Just to experiment, I entered the substitute zip in my analog OTA TVGOS Panasonic E85H and so far nothing has changed (but this might happen over night, and since I've never changed the zip I don't know how long this normally takes or if I have to do something to force a redownload of the guide data). I doubt the DTVPal will magically feed analog TVGOS devices (is this even theoretically possible over an RCA connection if you don't use the RF cable??), but it would be nifty if it did.

I called a bunch of Ultimate Electronics near me, and they all said "first week in July" for DTVPal ETA. They also don't know the price until they get 'em in stock.

One mildly funny note was when I poorly worded my question, "Do you have the DTV Pal?" and the response was, "no, we don't sell that... nothing in PAL" followed by some clarification on my part and then "oh, the converter box, yeah, those will come next month." So, the poorly-named-for-home-theater-stuff DTVPal has already caused some confusion

I do see a possibility of simultaneously decoding subchannels if that is the way that works.

I don't ever remember seeing the TR-40 or DTVPal directly advertised as having a external power source. This has all been released from images.

Again I don't remember seeing either the TR-40 or DTVPal directly advertised as being tied to g-link or the TVGOS.

You are correct that the TVGuide was referenced in the CNET TR50 video and people assumed it applied equally to the TR40.

I remember getting a lot of people mad at me when I told them it was probably PSIP.

I do have to say I am amazed how they did implement the EPG and interface.

I've noticed that the Zenith boxes do that. With an "empty" guide displayed, if you tune to only one of the sub-channels, all the other sub-channels will be filled in without tuning to them.

No offense taken to anything stated or asked here, so no worries. As I said before, we took on thousands of orders. Sling knew it -- I'm not sure how much was communicated up the chain. Everyone knew it would sell like hotcakes since January, so to say that they changed strategies after seeing the number of preorders seems a bit silly.

I don't think everyone at both Sling Media and Dish Network knew how popular the DTVPal would be.

Dave Zatz for example was surprised by all of the interest.

Some of the people at satelliteguys.us also were surprised by how much of a following it had/has.

You never did answer mosquito.
Were you giving the opportunity to switch distribution channels?

Sorry, I missed that question above. No, I'm not a Dish Network dealer, so that cuts me out. My understanding is Echosphere is the dealer distribution network.

The irony of this all is that although my business could have become a Dish Network dealer (or DirecTV or Comcast), we chose to remain independent because I've experienced all 3 of those companies in the past as a customer and didn't want to have any direct affiliation with them. Shame on me I guess for not sticking to my guns on the DTVPal given its manufacturer.

People involved with the product knew. It may be that word of it didn't reach Charlie's ears until recently and all of a sudden his eyes glazed over with dollar signs at that point.

No offense to Dave, or any other satellite guys, but most of them tend to stay pretty focused on that technology once they've determined that that's the best path for them. I'm not arguing against that by any means, and in fact that is part of why we have stayed independent with our home theater service. Everyone has a tv package that works best for them. What many cable and satellite customers forget is that not everyone has $40+ to spend every month on TV, which is the main purpose for this program, plus there are plenty of subscribers that are simply cashing in on the $40 coupons even though they don't techincally "need" them.

I applaud Dave's efforts to get the videos that he produced out there so quickly and thank him for it, but I do find it ironic that they didn't provide a test box to someone who really knew about OTA DTV and could market the features of their box vs any other on the market.

TVGOS systems are present in both analog and digital devices, with the data coming from analog PBS stations, presently, as you probably know.

The section of the DTVPal manual on TVGOS is pretty clear that it is intended to provide continuity of service for analog devices. Their description makes it appear that they will do this by doing a couple of things...

First they have to create a way for the TVGOS devices that are designed to get their data ONLY from an analog station to actually get the data from the digital (CBS) stations that will be carrying them. For many moons the talk (for example on threads for high-def digital receiver/recorders, such as I have) has been that a cecb could receive the digital signal, convert the AV stream to be output as an analog signal, and at the same time take the associated TVGOS data and convert it to the same form that the closed-caption data is being converted. Apparently the DTVPal is designed EITHER to do this for the whole TVGOS data set OR to make up a restricted OTA data set for use in the analog devices. (The full set also contains data on cable channels.) The TVGOS device would then pick out the program info for the zip code it's in. The DTVPal manual tells analog device owners to reset their devices by entering a new fake zip code for each major metro area, so that it will look for TVGOS data for the area's OTA channels given with fake analog channel numbers, because these devices can't deal with channel numbers like 9-1 (a digital channel number). By the way, the TVGOS devices are designed to scan the analog channels until they find one that has the data, and to return to that one each early AM to get updated data. If it finds that it can no longer get that station or that the original one is no longer carrying the data, it will scan again to find a channel that carries the data.

The other thing that the DTVPAL does it provides feedback from the TVGOS device, probably to do the scanning above, but also so that the viewer looking at the TVGOS device can choose what channel to watch or record, which info goes out the g-link to tell the DTVPal to change channels...

As for where this altered TVGOS data comes from, one possibility is that the DTVPal creates it on the basis of the TVGOS data it is getting from the digital station. The OTHER possibility is that Gemstar (the source of the TVGOS data that goes to CBS and then over the air) will actually INCLUDE this data set as part of the much bigger set being broadcast (which would have data for all the ACTUAL zip codes in a metropolitan area), and entering the fake zip code just instructs the TVGOS device to look for that data set in particular. This would then entail the DTVpal simply translating the TVGOS data set, rather than making up a new set with a fake zip code and fake channel numbers.

I have to admit that many of us hope that the second possibility is the right one. Then - for DIGITAL devices that are not designed to look at digital stations for the TVGOS data - the DTVPal would serve the purpose, without our doing the zip code change or making the feedback connection. All these devices need is for the full TVGOS data set to be translated to a converted analog channel, which can be joined up with the full antenna signal, and they will have the program data they need, as well as the digital broadcast stations (plus whatever people have from cable), and the devices keep working as designed...

But, as I say, the manual is pretty clear about what the DTVPal is supposed to do for the analog TVGOS devices, but it's doesn't say (and why should it?) exactly where the data set for the fake zip code comes from...

Someone in one of the threads has - over the months - been told by someone at Gemstar that the "TR-40" works for converting the TVGOS data, but it isn't clear to me exactly what that means, as indicated above.

Mosquito,

Sorry to hear about Echostar's change and the cost to everyone. I was just at your site and read about the unfortunate situation. Ironically, I saw this forum post right after visiting your site and I've been monitoring an AVS Pioneer thread. My plan was to drive up to Blaine use my coupons and pickup a couple of TR-40 up for my mom's and sister's old CRTs. I think there are lots of people out there that cannot afford a new HDTV whether it's $300 or $3000.00. An essentially free tr-40 would have given people who do not have the means a really nice setup.

... and $10.00 is $10.00.

Best Regards,

rgs

Thank you for the updates mosquito.

So to be involved in the Echosphere distribution network do you also have to start selling Dish Network receivers?

It is sad how they not only pulled one on you but also on Sling Media.

This is probably why Claude Greiner from DishStore and SolidSignal didn't have there orders cut because they were already involved with Echosphere.

Do you have any future plans to become affiliated with Echosphere?

So it looks like the DTVPal is now ONLY available through the DISH Network Sales organization?

I don't know any possible retailers that are listed as a NTIA participating retailer and also in the DISH Network Sales organization other than SolidSignal who is not taking DTVPal coupon orders.

Does anyone know who is a member of both?

Exactly... I used one of my Coupons on a DTT901 today from CC to be sure I got something. Mine expire 6/19 so will see if there is actually any place to get a DTVPal on the 19th (with a coupon).

UNLESS, they have struck a deal with a big box store. Then all bets are off.

The place to get one from is retailers who use the Echosphere distribution
and thus part of the DISH Network Sales organization.

The retailers would also have to be listed as a NTIA participating retailer.

Lets ALL put our heads together and figure out who are members of both?

This way those with expiring coupons can buy something from the stores and exchange.
The rest of us can also be ready to get a jump on this before they are sold out.

TalkingRat has suggested RadioShack and Sears

Again - Sorry mosquito

Checked CC.com and can't buy online. That stinks. Oh well.

Does anyone have any information on the whether Echostar has shown any interest in bidding on some of the bandwidth that the fed will be selling after this transition is done? Looking to add this aspect into my conspiracy theory...

Are you saying that Dish Network may have even skipped using their own Echosphere distribution for the DTVPal?

If this is true then I also fell sorry for SolidSignal.

You haven't said if you are debating on using the Echosphere distribution.

If you would use it then do you have to start selling all of the Dish Network receivers?

All I have to say is I read this and thought WOW that would be something.

I haven't seen any information on this but at this point wouldn't be surprised.

Kind of strange buying/bidding on a piece of the bandwidth and getting money back by selling a CECB,
but for all we know that could be what has happened.

Dish Network customers can see two "programs", one called "Charlie Chat" and the other "Tech Chat", that talks about goings-on with Dish. One an episode a couple months back, they talked on and on about their converter boxes and repeated time after time for consumers to not apply for their coupons until May or June or so. Of course, people didn't.... Hell, there are people from this forum/website who ordered at 12:01 am the day they were available !!

But just so I'm clear, Malouff, if I owned the business, RS and Sears is not where I'd sell my product. It's too bad, because I thought the online start was a really smart move, centralizing the supply until the production was in full swing.

As stated above, we've decided to remain independent on satellite/cable front. There's money to be had in satellite sales and install, but we don't think it gives our customers the best service as that tends to slant people towards recommending what is readily available instead of what makes sense for the customer.

I have no indication that there has or has not been an outside deal with a big box. It just remains a possibility in all of this. The retailer list as of 6/11 is here:

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/docs/Partici...ess_Report.xls

The only stores that would make sense from a standard distribution line are Radio Shack and Sears. CC and BB seem to be very much in the DirecTV camp, but I think I've only seen DirecTV people at a little table in front of my local Walmarts -- I don't think they are actually selling equipment for them on the Walmart shelves. Target is another open possiblity that would be outside the "Echo-sphere."

But hall, it's way too late to say in April that we should wait until summer, because they said on January 7th that they were in the final stages before production and would be out in March, and in unlimited quantity by June. Many others were saying they'd run out of coupons early, so we should not wait. My plan was to dump cable and get set up for digital ASAP.

And some of us desperately want to dump cable.

If I owned the business I wouldn't sell at RadioShack because you are going head to head with your primary
competition - Zenith and users are allowed to switch boxes.
Sears would be a better fit as nobody is really that interested in Magnavox and it would be a easier sale and less competition.

"If if I owned the business" aside.
TalkingRat do you know if RS and Sears are using the Echosphere distribution?

Of course, you realize that the reason many of us are interested in these CECB boxes is precisely that we *don't* have satellite or cable. We relied on their *public pronouncements* about availability back in Jan/Feb.

Tough to hear these "secret chat updates" without a Dish dish.

Ok, here's an interesting tidbit from the FCC at http://www.dtv.gov/DTVAct.pdf


That June 30 date is approaching fast. This is for the spectrum between channels 52 and 69 that has already been recovered. I'm still tyring to find where the bids are recorded -- this should be public record, right?

mosquito it must have slipped my mind and I am glad that you have taken the high road to remain independent on satellite/cable front

I guess this means that you will not be selling any DTVPals any time soon unless there is a change with Sling Media distribution.

I already had known about the Participating Report it was part of my signature with a notlong url I had created http://Participating.notlong.com

No, Malouff, I was just searching for local Dish Network distributors, and Sears and RS came up, along with 8 places I'd never heard of. It was thus a much smaller list of CECB approved places than the Sling side of things. I looked online at Sears and RS, because they have both had boxes up before they had them in stock, but nothing there on dtvpal.

I've been OTA since March. We roughed it until the coupons came and converted one set immediately, so we aren't totally deprived.

TalkingRat I searched for local Dish Network distributors in my area and my local Sears and RS did not come up
Only a local Verizon Wireless Store - Ensignal.

I wounder if local dish installers will be appearing on the NTIA Participating Report in a few days.

I know I'm sliding a bit off topic here, and I'll keep my conspiracy theories to myself, but did you all know that the FCC just completed the auction of OUR channel 52-69 spectrum, which netted the fed $19+ BILLION dollars?

http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/def..._summary&id=73

For one thing, it makes me wonder why the CECBs need to be able to tune channels 52-69, but for another, why are the coupons limited to only $1.5 billion in funds??? Remember that the current spectrum in between the new digital channels will also be auctioned off for at least another $15 billion!