Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 62

Drinking you ale at Dick O'Dow's???

I picked up the Dolby TRUE HD demo disc from CES this year and it has a 7,1 TRUE HD test track. I just bought it on flea bay. I will get to the bottom of the potential LPCM LFE issue this weekend!

Quickster2, measure the pink noise of DVE using the DD track while the 3800 is set to HDMI Audio Normal (which will bitstream). After making sure all speakers are level, change the setting of the 3800 to HDMI Audio LPCM and play the same pink noise. At this point, the 3800 is decoding the DD and you can check for the LFE bug with your SPL meter. I didn't suggest using HD Basics because your 4306 doesn't decode Dolby TrueHD.

Just a quick post to get opinions. I have a 720p projector that the 3800BDCi is hooked up to and a Sony 52XBR3 LCD tv (that has a max 1080p/60 fps capability) that has a Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 connected to it. I plan on upgrading my projector to a 1080p one after, hopefully, some great CEDIA news. The 3800BDCi will be connected to the XBR when I do get that new projector and I will be replacing it with one of the two 2.0 Pioneer Elite pieces coming in the fall (you figure the flagship 2.0 Elite will be better than the 3800BDCi). With this scenario do you think I need to get the Denon upgrade of the 24fps issue with the 3800BDCi if it will never be connected to a true 1080p/24 fps video display? I'm thinking of passing on the upgrade even though it's free and my right because I just don't want to be without the 3800BDCi for any amount of time. Thanks for any thoughts.

Ralph

By the By the BDP-HD1 is still a great blu-ray player!

RalphoR, while watching SD DVD's, have you noticed any combing or jaggies when outputting 720p to your projector?

Will do Sat. afternoon.

When the first gen of Denon universal players came out (you know, the format war before the last format war), there were enourmous and lengthy discussions all over the Net, including here at AVS, about the LFE bug. It turned out to be no bug at all, just some folks didn't understand the whole 10dB thing. But I'm sure it was very unpleasant for Denon and DenonJeff in particular. So I don't expect them to admit easily to any LFE bug in the 3800 (whether it is a real bug or not)

EWL5......I have to admit that the 3800BDCi looks awesome on the Yamaha DPX-1100 I have. No jaggies, no artifacting at all. It looks so good I put on hold a purchase of a Sony VPL-VW200 projector and will wait for after the CEDIA show before I take the plunge for a 1080p projector.

RalphoR, this is with the 3800 outputting 720p or 1080i? Also, we're talking strictly SD DVD and not BD, correct?

Does on this thread have the 3800 paired with an Anthem D2? Is there a 24fps problem with that combination?

RalphoR, I forgot to ask a more fundamental question. Are you using HDMI or component to the projector? It appears your projector has a fairly good video processor built in that probably is bypassed when you're using HDMI but is active when you are using component.

EWL5...I have the 3800BDCi sending out video at 720p, which is the native resolution of my projector. I tried 1080i, which the Yamaha can accept, but didn't see any better picture quality. I'm sending the video via HDMI directly to the Yamaha and using the analog outs to a Pioneer Elite 49TX receiver. I also have a Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi going component into my receiver and out to the Yamaha.

The Yamaha/Denon combo looks great with either SD or Blu-ray discs. The quality of SD DVDs is very close with blu-ray but the detail, color, and sharpness I get with BD is better. 30 Days of Night on BD looks extremely sharp. I just watched Jurassic Park 3 on the Denon and the picture looked really good. The JP3 SD looks great on the 79 but even better on the Denon in terms of color, detail, and sharpness (HDMI) but the blacks look better through the 79AVi (component).

Ralph

thebland,

How is your unit updated all of a sudden?

Just curious.......

RalphoR, does the Faroudja in your projector correct HDMI signals or only analog ones? My BENQ 8700+ uses the same DLP chip as yours but costed a lot less. One difference is you have HDMI input whereas I have DVI. I am stuck with RGB where you have a choice of RGB or YCbCr. I'll try to PM those who had trouble at 720p since this problem doesn't seem to be universal.
Thanks for your feedback and enjoy your Denon, RalphoR!

Howdy all,

Given all the talk about calibration DVD's I am wondering if it is going to do me any good to get a Blue-Ray version of DVD Essentials or AVI. I have the standard def DVD essentials DVD and my Onkyo comes with Audyssey setup.

Thoughts?
-R

I don't understand how this test demonstrates an "LFE bug". Look on page 11 of the manual.

For "HDMI Multi(Normal)" it says "Make the speaker settings on the connected AV amplifier".

For "HDMI Multi(LPCM)" it says "Make the speaker settings with the speaker setting items [that] appear after you select 'HDMI Multi(LPCM)'".

The test that you describe does not adjust the speaker settings on the appropriate device as directed when the audio out mode is changed. If you can adjust the settings to get the right LFE output for each separate configuration, then where is the bug? They tell you right there that you need to adjust for each configuration.

Is there a test that can be run where you do not switch between the Normal and LPCM settings and you can measure an LFE problem?

I think the -5dB drop in LFE occurs when either native PCM or PCM decoded from bitstream is passed to the AVR. Therefore, you would have to compare PCM to bitstream of the same sound track.

You can do either with LPCM. You can turn Source Direct to OFF and use the speaker settings in the player, or you can turn Source Direct to ON and use the AVR. The fact that this difference in LFE levels may arise when switching between (Normal) and (LPCM) is the "bug". There should be no change, if you want bass management handled exclusively by your AVR. One concludes then that LPCM sources will be handled the same way, though I understand how this is not a completely conclusive test. Ideally, there should be a calibration disc with LPCM test tones and endcoded test tones. Then this could be proven beyond a doubt.

So you leave the player in LPCM mode and first play pink noise from a PCM sound track, measure, then play pink noise from a DD sound track, measure, and compare them. We should detect -5db on LFE when playing the PCM track as compared to the DD track?

Leaving all settings the same, with Source Direct turned ON, you should detect -5dB in the LFE when switching form Multi(normal) to Multi(LPCM), irrespective of the source encoding.

Why do you say there should be no change between levels when switching between Normal and LPCM, without making adjustments on the appropriate device each time you switch (as the documentation says)? These two modes are mutually exclusive. You pick one, calibrate, and stay with it. Why do you conclude that it should be possible to switch btween these two modes without making other adjustments to accomodate the change?

Until this is proven beyond a doubt I have doubt.

so we can use SOURCE DIRECT function when using HDMI (LPCM)? I was under the impression SOURCE DIRECT function was only for analog OUT's?

When bitstreaming, the receiver will output x dB. When sending LPCM through HDMI, the receiver will output y dB. You can make x = y but the LFE bug doesn't concern that.

The LFE bug is on a relative basis. When bitstreaming, a properly calibrated speaker setup will have the same dB level relative to each other from every channel including LFE. When sending LPCM via HDMI, this should also be same concept except when the LFE bug rears its ugly head. That is when you will detect ~5-10 dB less from the .1 channel RELATIVE to the other channels, NOT relative to when it was bitstreaming. Does this clear things up?

Indeed, I did forget to mention to use one of the fronts as a reference for comparison.

Ok... Here is a update on my upgrade..
Shipped overnite at my dime to denon on Tuesday, they recieved it on Wen at 10:30 AM.
Today they called me to clarify my reciept which I did (they wanted to know why my reciept said 15th April and they got the unit on 16th - I advised them that my dealer had e mailed me a reciept on my request as I had lost my original).
Upgrade was finished today - I did not ask if both 24p and other fixes were done or just 24p.
They will ship it overnite back to me on Monday but will be using my Fedex account.

Do you think the only reason they called you was about the receipt? Or do you think they called to say the update was completed. Was it too late to ship it today?

They received mine yesteday afternoon, so maybe they will work on it Monday? I am not really expecting a phone call, but it would be nice to get one.

Mark

They called me for the reciept... I did not ask why they would not ship out today..
I was not expecting this early so I am happy the way it is...
Great job Denon.

I look forward to your report. I do not have much time on my hands these days, with two 'yungin's under 3 at home.

Mark

i wonder if you can hand deliver?
i live about 25 minutes away
don't have a problem now with 24fps might soon with a new purchase
maybe should just do and be done with

I would imagine you should be able to. Go onto Denon's web-site and process one of their customer service forms to generate a Return Authorization No. (RA No.), etc.,..Then you should be able to "walk" your unit, with all necessary paper-work, in-person to Denon Customer Service address. I sure would if I lived that close to the "horse's-mouth" (or is it the "horse's-ass" in this case).

OK, I'm going to post my experience realizing this goes against what others are reporting re: updating the players.

Contacted my local dealer where I purchased the unit to inquire about the issues with the player (he was aware of many of the problems including 24p) and getting these corrected. He stated that he would check on it and get back with me on Friday....this afternoon he left a message stating "that he had contacted the regional Denon rep, and that there will be a link on the website in the next week or two for a firmware update that can be downloaded. He also said that Denon did NOT want people sending the units back even though people were already doing so. He asked that I wait until the firmware was available for download and if I still had issues he would swap for newer serial numbered unit"

Again this is not from any source other than what was reported back to me from the dealer where I purchased the unit. I also got the impression if an update was not available withing that time frame he would go ahead and swap out the unit (purchased march 12).