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Denon DVD3800BDCI Owner's Thread - Page 123

post #3661 of 6642
In PC mode it should say 1080p 24hz. I assume that means it's accepting 24p and displaying in 72hz because that's what it says when I play 1080p24 material. I know it's 24p vs 60p because of how it looks and because of the video delay with 72hz mode. So I'm confident I can tell when my kuro is displaying 24p material from the Denon. You are correct that it does not say 72hz when hitting the display function in pc mode. I think the display function indicates the incoming signal and not the current refresh rate.
post #3662 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmi View Post

When I got my unit back with the 24p fix, I left purecinema off. Everything was fine. Recently, D-Nice said that if purecinema is not on advanced, then there are rare occasions where it will not detect the 24p input and go into 72hz mode. I'm not sure why calvin c is experiencing occas problems with advanced mode. Unless I come across a BD where it does not automatically switch to 72hz, I think I'll leave purecinema off. I just like turning off all unused or redundant features. Since the Denon is set to 1080p60 or p24, I have no need for any processing from the display.

Thanks jdmi, this has always been a little confusing to me but I think I will do as you do for now and just leave film mode off in the Pio. I will be having my display calibrated fairly soon and I am going to ask the calibrator to check this out with all my different video sources.
Mike
post #3663 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Bitstreaming seems to be anecdotally connected to more audio drop out or loss of sound issue than LPCM. Just read the threads here. Onkyo being the biggest offender with their buggy receivers. Moreover, when you bitstream, there is no second audio track. Can't be done. Additionally, there are few HDMI 1.3 receivers worth owning and the majority are under powered in DSPs. This is a problem as not only does the receiver need a lot of horse power to decode the lossless bitstreamed codecs BUT ALSO has to process and post-process them as well. They are tapping out their DSPs. These are the main reasons why the high end has stayed out of HDMI 1.3 and bitstreaming lossless (e.g. Halcro, Meridian, Lexicon, etc). LPCM in my view will be the de facto audio preference due to all the problems HDMI 1.3 has caused. BD LIVE (2.0 players) are another technical hardship for the BD player owner..

HDMI 1.3 offers nothing sonically or video wise over HDMI 1.2, 1.1. It is pure gimmickry and bug prone and was designed to cost us more money. It also seems to be making the manufacturers pull their hair out!! I went to CEDIA and this was the common thread with all the manufacturers trying to design a 1.3 processor.

Thanks Bland for your response. Since My Arcam avr doesn't have HDMI at all I am using the multi-channel analogs for the audio with the Denon doing the audio decoding, so I would not experience the issues you are referring to.
Mike
post #3664 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I watch few music concerts.. but my Panny DMP-10 decodes to DTS HR, so I can use that until the 3800 is upgraded.

DD+ was a HD DVD codec.


Well, given the way Jeff Talmedge treated you at CEDIA, do you really think that DTS-HD HRA will be added to the 3800? Not that it really matters, mind you. I hope I am wrong in my assumption...

Mark
post #3665 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Well, given the way Jeff Talmedge treated you at CEDIA, do you really think that DTS-HD HRA will be added to the 3800? Not that it really matters, mind you. I hope I am wrong in my assumption...

Mark


Honestly, I think Jeff only knows what he is told and he has no impact on any updates. Unlike Chris @ Pioneer, I did not get the impression Jeff is an advocate for us at all.
post #3666 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Bitstreaming seems to be anecdotally connected to more audio drop out or loss of sound issue than LPCM. Just read the threads here. Onkyo being the biggest offender with their buggy receivers. Moreover, when you bitstream, there is no second audio track. Can't be done. Additionally, there are few HDMI 1.3 receivers worth owning and the majority are under powered in DSPs. This is a problem as not only does the receiver need a lot of horse power to decode the lossless bitstreamed codecs BUT ALSO has to process and post-process them as well. They are tapping out their DSPs. These are the main reasons why the high end has stayed out of HDMI 1.3 and bitstreaming lossless (e.g. Halcro, Meridian, Lexicon, etc). LPCM in my view will be the de facto audio preference due to all the problems HDMI 1.3 has caused. BD LIVE (2.0 players) are another technical hardship for the BD player owner..

HDMI 1.3 offers nothing sonically or video wise over HDMI 1.2, 1.1. It is pure gimmickry and bug prone and was designed to cost us more money. It also seems to be making the manufacturers pull their hair out!! I went to CEDIA and this was the common thread with all the manufacturers trying to design a 1.3 processor.

I think Krell is considered high-end, and their S-1200 is 1.3.

Most of what you discuss are just early development issues. HDMI 1.3 is still new. Decoding lossless will be as common in tomorrows receivers as decoding DD and DTS is in today's receivers. Even Outlaw is coming out with a 1.3 receiver. Everyone will have them and eventaully all the glitches will be ironed out.

I wish I had a buck for each "how come 'TrueHD' doesn't show up on my receiver?" question in this forum. Not decoding the audio in the receiver is the thing that is odd to a lot of people. Everyone is used to DD and DTS coming down that optical cable, and that's what they expect to still have with HDMI. It's the integration issues between the existing equipment and the new equipment that is causing all the pain. We're in this transition period where people are trying to work the new stuff in with the old, and it's complicated and confusing.

Now I know everyone in this forum isn't going to like this: There comes a time in the technology where you just have to pitch out the old, and get the new. You do it with PCs, cellphones, etc. A/V gear is no different. HDMI 1.3 is that time in my opinion. That's what I was waiting for, and when it happened that's when I got a 3800 and a 3808 both at the same time, and with the exception of one small blip that never repeated itself, I have had no problems at all.

I know that a lot of people in this thread have significant investment in gear, and there's no way they're going to trade in their $5k receivers for a new one just for bitstreaming, and that's fine, but that does not mean that those of us who are upgrading to this technology are falling prey to a gimmic.
post #3667 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan P. View Post

I think Krell is considered high-end, and their S-1200 is 1.3.

Yes it is... but even though it is 1.3, it cannot [yet] bitstream the lossless codecs. Still problems.

Neither can the new Classe' processor. Again, 1.3, but no lossless.
post #3668 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Yes it is... but even though it is 1.3, it cannot [yet] bitstream the lossless codecs. Still problems.

Neither can the new Classe' processor. Again, 1.3, but no lossless.

Sure, but they will get there. The engineering expertise simply needs to get caught up with the technology. There probably just isn't enough skill out there yet to go around. I started out as a DBA on Oracle 7, but I had to learn 8, 9i, 10g, and still need to get ramped up on 11g, but I'll get there eventually if I want to stay in the business. Same with that stuff. They'll work it out if they want to stay in the business.

I was considering an Outlaw originally and asked them about 1.3 early last year. They couldn't get the chipsets, couldn't get it done, etc. etc. and said they'd have something in Spring of 2008. Now it's Fall of 2008 and they're just getting to it. Meanwhile I bought a Denon because they got it done and that's one less customer for Outlaw. I'm sure that kind of thing helped light a fire under their keisters.

Eventaully if you don't have that TrueHD and DTS-HD logo on your box, you're going to get pushed to the back of the shelf.
post #3669 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan P. View Post

Sure, but they will get there. The engineering expertise simply needs to get caught up with the technology. There probably just isn't enough skill out there yet to go around. I started out as a DBA on Oracle 7, but I had to learn 8, 9i, 10g, and still need to get ramped up on 11g, but I'll get there eventually if I want to stay in the business. Same with that stuff. They'll work it out if they want to stay in the business.

I was considering an Outlaw originally and asked them about 1.3 early last year. They couldn't get the chipsets, couldn't get it done, etc. etc. and said they'd have something in Spring of 2008. Now it's Fall of 2008 and they're just getting to it. Meanwhile I bought a Denon because they got it done and that's one less customer for Outlaw. I'm sure that kind of thing helped light a fire under their keisters.

Eventaully if you don't have that TrueHD and DTS-HD logo on your box, you're going to get pushed to the back of the shelf.

For those that forked over $20K+ for the Krell, I hope so.. But when I looked at it at CEDIA, I got the impression it is still a work in progress will still majot hurdles to cross re: bitstreaming. I just wonder how long bitstreaming lossless will be embraced before they give up and go to the tried and true LPCM which we've used for many years.

To early to buy a lossless HDMI 1.3 pre/pro.
post #3670 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

For those that forked over $20K+ for the Krell, I hope so.. But when I looked at it at CEDIA, I got the impression it is still a work in progress will still majot hurdles to cross re: bitstreaming. I just wonder how long bitstreaming lossless will be embraced before they give up and go to the tried and true LPCM which we've used for many years.

To early to buy a lossless HDMI 1.3 pre/pro.

It was my understanding that Halcro has alot of issues, despite the fact that they are doing "only" LPCM. Is that accurate?

Mark
post #3671 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

It was my understanding that Halcro has alot of issues, despite the fact that they are doing "only" LPCM. Is that accurate?

Mark

Halcro had a lot of issues... For about about a year after updating the units to accept multi-channel LPCM from lossless, there were some serious bugs. There were bugs also pre-LPCM upgrade. This piece got off to a rough start but was one of the first high end pre/pros with HDMI. Among the issues: A high noise floor, hand shake issues, & not passing BTB. Also, their was a bug where the Rear R channel doubled over to the Left Rear channel (so not true 7.1).. Even with that it worked well most of the time but at times was a PITA.

I called them once a month for a year to bother them about all the fixes needed

HOWEVER, they recently released a huge, full firmware fix 2 months ago that solved every issue... BTB is normal, full 7.1 input from LPCM, fixed the noise floor issue and no more handshake issues. Now it is fully updated and stable as can be.

I can now highly recommend it.
post #3672 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Halcro had a lot of issues... For about about a year after updating the units to accept multi-channel LPCM from lossless, there were some serious bugs. There were bugs also pre-LPCM upgrade. This piece got off to a rough start but was one of the first high end pre/pros with HDMI. Among the issues: A high noise floor, hand shake issues, not passingt BTB. Also, their was a bug where the rear R channel doubled over to the left rear channel (so not true 7.1).. Even with that it worked well most of the time but at times was a PITA.

I called them once a month for a year to bother them about all the fixes needed

HOWEVER, they recently released a huge, full firmware fix 2 months ago that solved every issue... BTB is normal, full 7.1 input from LPCM, fixed the noise floor issue and no more handshake issues. Now it is fully updated and stable as can be.

I can now highly recommend it.

Jeff, that is unfortunate for a pre/pro using "the tried and true LPCM which we've used for many years". Not every technology is easy to implement, and sometimes it doesn't matter how long it has been around. Some manufacturers get it right, some don't.

I am glad they got everything fixed. Onkyo should take notes

Mark
post #3673 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Jeff, that is unfortunate for a pre/pro using "the tried and true LPCM which we've used for many years". Not every technology is easy to implement, and sometimes it doesn't matter how long it has been around. Some manufacturers get it right, some don't.

I am glad they got everything fixed. Onkyo should take notes

Mark


Actually, the LPCM always worked. It was the secondary issues unrelated to LPCM that were the problems. LPCM was the saving grace for me, otherwise I would have dumped it. Onkyo is first with HDMI 1.3 and thats why those units basically will never work reliably and the threads are loaded with problems.
post #3674 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


To early to buy a lossless HDMI 1.3 pre/pro.

Anthem is about to release pre/pro's that will stream lossless bitstream over HDMI (1.3C I believe) and have the decoders onboard the pre/pro. Now nobody at the moment knows if they will be problem free since they are not yet available (November is the date at the moment).

Anthem has always been a proponent of carrying out the lossless coding to LPCM in the player since you loose certain capabilities for different audio tracks when you stream the bitstream, they even have a paper on their site which explains the benefits of decoding in the player so it is interesting that they are one of the first to make the change.
post #3675 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikefl52 View Post

Anthem is about to release pre/pro's that will stream lossless bitstream over HDMI (1.3C I believe) and have the decoders onboard the pre/pro. Now nobody at the moment knows if they will be problem free since they are not yet available (November is the date at the moment).

Anthem has always been a proponent of carrying out the lossless coding to LPCM in the player since you loose certain capabilities for different audio tracks when you stream the bitstream, they even have a paper on their site which explains the benefits of decoding in the player so it is interesting that they are one of the first to make the change.

You can bet Anthem will have problems... But they are good about gettnig things fixed. Even that the D2 is still buggy in some respects.
I wouldn't be the first to buy the D2 V2.
post #3676 of 6642
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post


To early to buy a lossless HDMI 1.3 pre/pro.



I agree. I'm using analog output on my 3800, and it has worked without the various "bugs" that have been reported. I'm using the ext. inputs on a Denon 4806 as the "pre/pro" for now (too early to commit to something big$$ that won't be debugged) and it feeds my Krell EVO403 just fine. When 1.3 pre/pros are commonplace, I'll reconsider at that time.

Lee
post #3677 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmi View Post

In PC mode it should say 1080p 24hz. I assume that means it's accepting 24p and displaying in 72hz because that's what it says when I play 1080p24 material. I know it's 24p vs 60p because of how it looks and because of the video delay with 72hz mode. So I'm confident I can tell when my kuro is displaying 24p material from the Denon. You are correct that it does not say 72hz when hitting the display function in pc mode. I think the display function indicates the incoming signal and not the current refresh rate.

Thanks for the feedback. I will just leave Purecinema off as it seems to work the best and what you say makes a lot of sense too.
post #3678 of 6642
I have a question regarding an audio setting. Since I am using the 7.1ch analog audio out jacks for the audio (player doing the decoding) Under HDMI Audio Out in the Function Set-up Menu I select Audio Mute after I do this a choice of Bitstream or LPCM pops up. I was never quite sure about this choice but I have bitstream selected. I was just curious if this was right menu choice or does this even matter since I am using the analog outs for audio? I read the manual on pages 32 & 33 regarding this but it was a little confusing.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
post #3679 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

I have a question regarding an audio setting. Since I am using the 7.1ch analog audio out jacks for the audio (player doing the decoding) Under HDMI Audio Out in the Function Set-up Menu I select Audio Mute after I do this a choice of Bitstream or LPCM pops up. I was never quite sure about this choice but I have bitstream selected. I was just curious if this was right menu choice or does this even matter since I am using the analog outs for audio? I read the manual on pages 32 & 33 regarding this but it was a little confusing.
Thanks in advance,
Mike

In my ABX tests, I played around with those settings. I always got bitstream from the optical connection, even if I selected PCM. Weird.
post #3680 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

In my ABX tests, I played around with those settings. I always got bitstream from the optical connection, even if I selected PCM. Weird.

So it doesn't matter which one I select, bitstream or lpcm. I seem to remember now that I think about this that I did try the lpcm choice and it resulted in me not being able to get the better audio codecs, but again I didn't check it with the digital connection. I will have to check again. I actually don't use the digital connection even though I am connected using coaxial as opposed to optical. I find that the analog connections sound better to me when there is just a Dolby Digital or DTS audio track on the Blu-ray disc. What do you think about that? Could that be a product of the superior quality DAC on the the Denon BD Player?
Thanks,
Mike
post #3681 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

So it doesn't matter which one I select, bitstream or lpcm. I seem to remember now that I think about this that I did try the lpcm choice and it resulted in me not being able to get the better audio codecs, but again I didn't check it with the digital connection. I will have to check again. I actually don't use the digital connection even though I am connected using coaxial as opposed to optical. I find that the analog connections sound better to me when there is just a Dolby Digital or DTS audio track on the Blu-ray disc. What do you think about that? Could that be a product of the superior quality DAC on the the Denon BD Player?
Thanks,
Mike

Yes, the superior DAC's and AL24 processing in the player made the lossy sound similar to the lossless in the ABX tests. Lossy from my receiver was more distinctive than when decoded by the player itself.
post #3682 of 6642
So anyone think its worth upgrading from my 2500 to the 3800?? I'm bitstreaming to a denon 4308.....
post #3683 of 6642
I guess a lot can change in 6 months... Of course as many know here I had a 3800 when it first came out and was unhappy with it... When I was asked about trying another one recently (by someone who shall remain nameless) I decided to give it another shot. The unit I recieved on Friday has an August build date and has the latest firmware version 1.107. The first thing I noticed was the much faster response and quicker load times. I also have loaded about 50 titles and it has accepted every one. I am also very pleased to have the 1080p/24 working correctly which was my biggest gripe last time. I just had the Pioneer Elite 05 in its spot and can say they are on par in terms of pic Q (like I expected) but I like the 3800 more. Why? Simply put the Pioneer units are not as stable as should be for their 4th gen releases. This is why I have decided to pass on their 09 model due out later this year. Though the Pioneer units are much more efficient with their latest firmware (though still not up on their site ). I was able to actually tweak the picture to squeeze an even more detailed and crisp image than the 51FD (same as the 05) I still have. The 3800 still is still king in the picture adjusting department and it shows. So now I plan to keep the 3800 in my set up and also the PS3 as my utility player. I can send it anywhere (PS3) in the basement (playroom, bar or theater if needed) and use the bluetooth remote whichever room it is playing in. So without making a long post on the 3800 I will conclude by saying that it does put out an impressive image. I have mentioned many times that it is like splitting hairs putting out 1080p/24 with most players. Now more than ever I am looking for reliability and somewhat faster load times. Nothing is worse than having company over and having an issue with a movie. I will keep the 3800 for awhile and the only other player I plan on getting this year will be the new Sony 5000ES. And who knows, the 3800 may even stay long after that to.
LL
LL
post #3684 of 6642
This one looked great!
LL
LL
LL
post #3685 of 6642
Definitely reference material...
LL
LL
LL
post #3686 of 6642
Joe !

Is that an Onkyo DVS939 I see your rack ?
post #3687 of 6642
Actually it is an Onkyo SP1000...

I plan to compare SD dvds this weekend...
post #3688 of 6642
Joe! Welcome to the reference thread. Glad to have you back. The Pioneers are nice but simply are not in the Denom's league for pq. They gotta be going crazy in the Pioneer thread!
post #3689 of 6642
Thanks Jeff. It feels good to be back... Ironman party is starting here in 45 minutes!!!
post #3690 of 6642
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

Actually it is an Onkyo SP1000...

Even better ! Nice piece !
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