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So my first DIY sub is such a let down!

post #1 of 37
3/7/08 at 11:20pm
Thread Starter 
I will try to keep my story short as possible.

I came across this post in the Elemental Designs forums and thought I would give it a shot.

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39744

I build the box as directed same size but a little less interior volume due to my adding a new Dayton 240w amp.
I use the EHQS 12in driver and also use the ED port take my time putting on 4 coats of truck bedliner so the box looks killer.

I go to test it out and the output of the sub is very very low I spent days trying to figure it out, I did everything I think possible trying to trouble shoot the problem from sending the amp back to setting up my receiver to trying every way possible as far as connecting the amp to the sub and the sub to my receiver and I tried all the phase settings tried all the crossover settings and still very little output, now when I say very little output Im comparing it to my BIC H-100 and when the gains are set to the same amount my DIY sub only put out about 1/8 the volume of bass as the H-100.

I even called support at ED thinking I was missing something but everything they suggested I had tried multiple times, so I came to the conclusion that my expectations were just to high for the driver, so I ordered the 13Kv.2
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...products_id=31
thinking this will solve my low output being this driver is a much much nicer drive well I put the new driver in today and still very little output compared to the H-100 with the gain set to 35% on the H-100 it still have way more bass output then my DIY sub even when its gain is set to 70% Im talking the difference is huge NIGHT and DAY it is.

I have to say what a let down this entire experience has been, I just don’t get it I fallowed the box design to the letter and this dang things sucks compared to my H-100.

Well I’m not really sure why I’m post other then to vent some frustrations.

I would think this sub would perform as least as well as my H-100, its making my brain hurt I still feel I’m missing something this should be cranking out way more bass then it is.
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post #2 of 37
3/8/08 at 12:07am
How big is the cabinet internally.

Did you model using Winisd?

Are you running the amp with preamp input or through the speaker wires?

What Kind of receiver are you using?

Have you tried running a laptop to the sub only using a tone generator to see if the sub is functioning correctly?


How much power does the woofer handle and the amp realistically put out?


Good luck,

Robert
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post #3 of 37
3/8/08 at 12:10am
Also, how do you have the voice coil wired. Is it single or dual? Is the amp rated at 4 or 8 ohms?

Lots of things can be wrong, you just need to make sure you have everything correct as possible.
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post #4 of 37
3/8/08 at 12:24am
If all else fails, I would try to run the amp from the BIC to the new speaker and see if it has enough power if you cannot get access to another more powerful amp to test the new sub with. I would be skepical of the output from the dayton if the voice coils are correct. You might need much more power and then you will know for sure. Only a suggestion.

Good luck,

Robert
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post #5 of 37
3/8/08 at 12:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:


How big is the cabinet internally.

If you fallow my link you will see the cabinet
http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=39744


Quote:


Are you running the amp with preamp input or through the speaker wires?

Preamp input, I just unpluge my H100 and plug in my DIY sub.

Quote:


What Kind of receiver are you using?

Pioneer I would think just plugging in the new sub would not need any changes to the amp, is that wrong, the H100 works great with the amp setting now.

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Have you tried running a laptop to the sub only using a tone generator to see if the sub is functioning correctly?

No but both the EHQS and the new dirver I have both have very little output, my guess is they are both not having issues.

Quote:


How much power does the woofer handle and the amp realistically put out?

Well the ED websit say the driver works best with 200 to 400wats

The amp is the Dayton 240wat plate amp, PE sells two of these amps one with boost and one without boost mine does NOT have the boost.

Quote:


Also, how do you have the voice coil wired. Is it single or dual? Is the amp rated at 4 or 8 ohms?

I have the 2 ohm dual voice coil driver with the + from one set of posts wired to the - on the other set of post then the + for the amp to the to the unwired + on one set of posts and the - going to the unwried - on the other set of posts. This should be putting me at a 4ohm load to the amp.


Quote:


If all else fails, I would try to run the amp from the BIC to the new speaker and see if it has enough power if you cannot get access to another more powerful amp to test the new sub with. I would be skepical of the output from the dayton if the voice coils are correct. You might need much more power and then you will know for sure. Only a suggestion.

Thats a good idea but the guys from ED said the EHQS driver could be run with a 100w amp no problem so I would assume my new 240wat Dayton is putting out enough power, oh and remember I said I had sent the first amp back thinking it was a bad amp, but PE sent me a new one and I still have the same problem.


OH and thanks guys for the quick replies and suggestions!
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post #6 of 37
3/8/08 at 3:32am
I'm going to guess that you have something wired incorrectly...where on the plate amp are you connecting the speaker leads to? On my old plate amp I have speaker level connections on the top of the amp and when i sold the amp to someone that is how he was trying to connect the driver to the amp. I assume you know that you have speaker leads "under" the amp that you are supposed to use? Can you snap pics of your hook-ups so we can see?
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post #7 of 37
3/8/08 at 6:18am
Did you also build the eD lowpass crossover? You don't need it with an HT receiver's subwoofer preout. Doubling lowpass xover's will significantly reduce your output.

If I read correctly, you simply swapped subs with no changes on your receiver. There's no guarantee the BIC and PE240 amps have the same line level input sensitivity. Meaning, the sub level on the Pioneer may need to be raised to properly drive the PE240.

Similarly, you can't simply compare volume knob position between the plate amps. 25% on one will probably not provide the same gain/attenuation as 25% on the other.

Lastly, but most importantly. Do you have an SPL meter? Objective measurements, especially with test tones, are always more accurate than saying A sounds louder than B. The BIC could have a peaked response that's fooling you into thinking it's louder. Running a quick WinISD model at 5 ft^3 net (guestimate, too lazy to figure out exactly what volume the eD box is supposed to be and they don't explicitly state it) with a full 4"x17" port shows an 18.4Hz tuning...there's no peaking at all for the eD box.

-Brent
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post #8 of 37
3/8/08 at 6:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverwolf View Post


If I read correctly, you simply swapped subs with no changes on your receiver. There's no guarantee the BIC and PE240 amps have the same line level input sensitivity. Meaning, the sub level on the Pioneer may need to be raised to properly drive the PE240.

Similarly, you can't simply compare volume knob position between the plate amps. 25% on one will probably not provide the same gain/attenuation as 25% on the other.

This is a good point. I got my parents an H100 for Christmas. I am not sure if they are all like this but the amp sensitivity is over the top on that thing. We have it set literally a hair above OFF and it we still had to back the receiver down to -10 on the LFE.

So, you definitley don't want to rely on them being anywhere near the same level wise.

The EHQS is not exactly a high excursion driver. But it should still thump good within its limits. Something does not add up.
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post #9 of 37
3/8/08 at 6:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:


I'm going to guess that you have something wired incorrectly

TundrSQ my dear mom lost my canon so I cant take pics, but here is how I have it wired, on the back side of the plate amp, the side that faces the inside of my box there are two wires coming out of it a red positive wire and a black negative wire in the below pic you will see how I have it wired.

Ok my pic posting skills suck so here is a link
http://fox302.com/index.pl?s=vf&user...ile=wiring.JPG

[quote]Did you also build the eD lowpass crossover? You don't need it with an HT receiver's subwoofer preout. Doubling lowpass xover's will significantly reduce your output.

No I did not build the corssover.

Quote:


Lastly, but most importantly. Do you have an SPL meter? Objective measurements, especially with test tones, are always more accurate than saying A sounds louder than B. The BIC could have a peaked response that's fooling you into thinking it's louder. Running a quick WinISD model at 5 ft^3 net (guestimate, too lazy to figure out exactly what volume the eD box is supposed to be and they don't explicitly state it) with a full 4"x17" port shows an 18.4Hz tuning...there's no peaking at all for the eD box.

Dang I dont have a SPL meter, I am running the full size of the port.


Quote:


This is a good point. I got my parents an H100 for Christmas. I am not sure if they are all like this but the amp sensitivity is over the top on that thing. We have it set literally a hair above OFF and it we still had to back the receiver down to -10 on the LFE.

So, you definitley don't want to rely on them being anywhere near the same level wise.

I will try letting the receiver do its set up by pluging in the mic and running the automatic settup, this time with my DIY sub plugged in.


Quote:


The EHQS is not exactly a high excursion driver. But it should still thump good within its limits. Something does not add up.

Remember Im no longer using the EHQS lastnight I put in a new 13Kv.2
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...products_id=31
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post #10 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:16am
You might have answered this already...but if you go back and hook the BIC up it still works great? The only thing that we haven't ruled out is a setting on the AVR.
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post #11 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:21am
I see you have the DVC wired for 4ohms. That's fine. However, as others have pointed out, you can't just change the subs. Does your receiver allow you to select the "size" of your speakers? If so, how do you have that set? If you have it set to large, you should probably try setting them to small and then adjusting the subwoofer settings. I'm not familiar with Pioneer amps, but my system allows total adjustment of every speaker.
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post #12 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:


You might have answered this already...but if you go back and hook the BIC up it still works great? The only thing that we haven't ruled out is a setting on the AVR.

I have a feeling you all are right, I will update you all in a few, my wife just started watching a movie so I will have to wait till its over.

Jeff I do have the speaker setting to "small" on the receiver.
I have the Pioneer VSX-1017TXV-K
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...1017TXV-K.Kuro
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post #13 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:51am
All this wirring talk is good...now. Do you know some plate amps are more sensitive at the input and others much less?

To me this could be your problem, to say sub A is less "LOUD" than sub B on the same gain setting means very little.

Set your receiver sub gain to +6 or even +12. After adjust the seting to your liking on the DIY sub and finally fine tune at sitting position with your receiver's remote.
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post #14 of 37
3/8/08 at 8:20am
You don't need an SPL meter. If the difference is "night and day" an SPL meter will just tell you one puts out 100db and the other puts out 70db (just throwing out numbers). Is that any more useful? No, it already tells you you're not getting the output you should, it just quantifies it is all.

What is useful is getting a multi-meter. Have everything hooked up (your gain cranked, but receiver turned way down), but pull the driver out of the box. Hook up the multimeter while playing a test tone and see what your VAC is. Click it over to ohms and see what impedence you're getting. Using Ohms law, Watts = (volts^2)/ohms. If you're getting a lot of watts, something is wrong with the box. If you're not, something is either wrong with the amp, receiver, wiring, and/or settings.
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post #15 of 37
3/8/08 at 8:54am
hmm, I'm running an eqhs12 on a 150W rythmik amp , 3.5 cubes tuned to 23hz.

I get ~110 dB in room (smallish bedroom). <125 invested in whole thing.

are you sure the amp works correctly? (i.e. not broken?) you've tried 2 different drivers and it is not good with both.

have you tried the drivers with a different amp?
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post #16 of 37
3/8/08 at 9:37am
Did you stuff the box or line it? If so, did you make sure there is a clear path open between the driver and the port? If there is lots of stuffing blocking it then it could reduce output. Probably not as much as you describe though.

How does it sound after recalibration of the receiver? Make sure that the crossover setting is maxed out on the subwoofer amplifier and set around 80hz to start with on the receiver.

You could potentially get some gain on the amp input if you split the RCA and put it into the L and R input on the sub amplifier. I think this works...
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post #17 of 37
3/8/08 at 9:39am
I have the boost version of that PE amp and with a pair of EHQS's I can drive them very high levels if distortion, they really move, I don't what your expecting but in a very large basement, we get 106dB down deep and nearly 115dB in the upper bass regions.
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post #18 of 37
3/8/08 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

This is a good point. I got my parents an H100 for Christmas. I am not sure if they are all like this but the amp sensitivity is over the top on that thing. We have it set literally a hair above OFF and it we still had to back the receiver down to -10 on the LFE.

So, you definitley don't want to rely on them being anywhere near the same level wise.

The EHQS is not exactly a high excursion driver. But it should still thump good within its limits. Something does not add up.

The gain on the Bic is crazy, if you have used your AVR's eq function with the bic and tried to switch over, i'll bet thats the problem. Definitely try doing the EQ with the new sub.
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post #19 of 37
3/8/08 at 10:09am
Hard to think you went through all this and even called the maker without looking at your receiver's EQ.

I bet the LFE is -9 or something along those lines.
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post #20 of 37
3/8/08 at 11:10am
Keep looking... you will find the problem somewhere.
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post #21 of 37
3/8/08 at 11:12am
1st, your are connecting to the sub/FLE out of that Pioneer? That receiver output is already crossed over (default at 80hz unless you changed it). I would make sure the crossover setting is as high as possible on the Dayton amp to avoid crossing over twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

If all else fails, I would try to run the amp from the BIC to the new speaker and see if it has enough power if you cannot get access to another more powerful amp to test the new sub with. I would be skepical of the output from the dayton if the voice coils are correct. You might need much more power and then you will know for sure. Only a suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renob101 View Post

Thats a good idea but the guys from ED said the EHQS driver could be run with a 100w amp no problem so I would assume my new 240wat Dayton is putting out enough power, oh and remember I said I had sent the first amp back thinking it was a bad amp, but PE sent me a new one and I still have the same problem.


You got my solution already, but didn't try it. I would not rule it out as a method to your troubleshooting to find the problem.

I don't know how crafty you feel in doing some minor surgery to your BIC.
My non-scientific solution to try to remove some variables, would be to open up the H-100.

Attach some speaker wire to the leads from the BIC amp
Attach some speaker wire to the driver of the BIC sub - run the out of the port.
Clearly label polarity of everything.
Assemble the sub back together.

Do the same on your EHQS sub and box.

I would then just wire nut up the different conifgurations to test:
1. Bic amp running DIY box/driver.
2. Dayton amp running H-100 sub/enclusure

Good luck.
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post #22 of 37
3/8/08 at 4:05pm
Thread Starter 
Problem solved!

You all were right in that I needed to run the auto set up on the receiver with my DIY sut that did the trick and it fixed the output problem.

Now my DIY sub is CRANKING out the bass and the gain on the Dayton is only at 30% WOW it sound so so go!

Now the question is how do I get it and my BIC to play nice, my guess is put the BIC back in and just turn its gain WAY down.


THANKS ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR HELP.
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post #23 of 37
3/8/08 at 4:28pm
Glad you got it figured out!

Ya, sensitivity can vary wildly with these things. It happens.

Now enjoy your creation.
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post #24 of 37
3/8/08 at 4:43pm
Glad it's fixed and you're enjoying your new sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renob101 View Post

Now the question is how do I get it and my BIC to play nice, my guess is put the BIC back in and just turn its gain WAY down.

You mean you want to run both at the same time? Not recommended...it'd be very very difficult to get a good in-room frequency response doing that.
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post #25 of 37
3/8/08 at 6:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:


You mean you want to run both at the same time? Not recommended

Yes Im going to do it
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post #26 of 37
3/8/08 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renob101 View Post

Yes Im going to do it

If it sounds OK do it, but it can be problematic to mix two or more flavors of subs even when they are colocated. The responses are never the same...

If you seperate them you will have to dial the phases in as well.
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post #27 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:16pm
Told ya
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post #28 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renob101 View Post

Yes Im going to do it

Okay, have fun! I hope it works out for you, but don't be too disappointed if you can't get it sounding very even across the room.
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post #29 of 37
3/8/08 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
I will try them out in opposite corners see if I can get it to sound good. I hope
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post #30 of 37
3/8/08 at 9:14pm
Quote:


I will try them out in opposite corners see if I can get it to sound good. I hope

It's good to try things out. Glad your up and running......
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