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Dropping CB3 Extreme for ML 502 ???

post #1 of 28
3/8/08 at 6:56am
Thread Starter 
Now that ATI has taken over Theta Digital... I'm starting to consider jumping ship to a higher end processor like the ML 502. Theta's Circle Surround and PL2 - Music don't hold a candle to the Logic 7 Music algorithm.

I am disappointed in the ML502 not having the newer codecs like Dolby TrueHD, and DTS HD Master. Who knows they may come out with it sooner or later.

I still love my CB3 with Extreme DACS, but am losing patience with delays. I suppose we'll see what happens.

Any constructive thoughts from other members?

I still wish dCs released a multi-channel product like the 2 channel Scarlatti.
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post #2 of 28
3/8/08 at 7:09am
I will be receiving a demo ML40 I purchased recently in the next couple weeks ... since it (and the ML502) have HDMI 1.1 ... I have ordered the Denon 3800BDCI player to decode the new formats and send as PCM via HDMI. The output from the player will be split ... one output to the PJ and the other to the ML40.

I figured it would be a better option to change players every couple years to keep current instead of processors ... especially since I plan on keeping the ML40 for at least a decade.
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post #3 of 28
3/8/08 at 7:16am
Thread Starter 
I don't believe the 40 can do Logic 7. It is my understanding that the 502 will be the first ML processor to incorporate it. Nevertheless the ML products are nice. Especially in 2 channel stereo mode.
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post #4 of 28
3/8/08 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I don't believe the 40 can do Logic 7. It is my understanding that the 502 will be the first ML processor to incorporate it. Nevertheless the ML products are nice. Especially in 2 channel stereo mode.

Yes, you are correct.

I simply wanted to mention how I incorporated the new with the old. I can't wait for it to arrive.

Has the 502 been officially released?
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post #5 of 28
3/9/08 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

Now that ATI has taken over Theta Digital... I'm starting to consider jumping ship to a higher end processor like the ML 502. Theta's Circle Surround and PL2 - Music don't hold a candle to the Logic 7 Music algorithm.

I"m not much for dsp modes for music but if that's your cup of tea,you are may be right. There are reasons to jump ship besides that. The Six Shooter murders all of the pre/pros I've heard with 5.1 recorded music so that's what keeps me attached to Theta. I luv multi-channel music but only when it's recorded that way. No right or wrong, just my preference.
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post #6 of 28
3/9/08 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

The Six Shooter murders all of the pre/pros I've heard with 5.1 recorded music so that's what keeps me attached to Theta. I luv multi-channel music but only when it's recorded that way. No right or wrong, just my preference.

Agreed but that leaves you dependant on the D/A of the player. In theory, getting the music out of the player (any one) and into the processor digitally would be superior because it would bypass the player's D/A and analog output stages. Probably around the corner.....................
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post #7 of 28
3/9/08 at 9:51am
"In theory, getting the music out of the player (any one) and into the processor digitally would be superior because it would bypass the player's D/A and analog output stages. Probably around the corner....................."

Some are already around that corner.....

Shawn
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post #8 of 28
3/9/08 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfogg View Post

"In theory, getting the music out of the player (any one) and into the processor digitally would be superior because it would bypass the player's D/A and analog output stages. Probably around the corner....................."

Some are already around that corner.....

Shawn

Yes. Tonight's the night as soon as I reconfigure the Meridian.
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post #9 of 28
3/9/08 at 10:53am
Cool, have fun!

Shawn
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post #10 of 28
3/9/08 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes. Tonight's the night as soon as I reconfigure the Meridian.


For multi-channel high resolution music, I would certainly consider the Meridian as "around the corner". Can't say I'd say that for some other companies processors - for them, I still prefer my CB3 and Six Shooter.
But assuming the new ATI based Theta does some out with a HDMI digital solution at a reasonable price point for existing CB3 owners, then I will be a happy camper. IF!
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post #11 of 28
3/9/08 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

For multi-channel high resolution music, I would certainly consider the Meridian as "around the corner". Can't say I'd say that for some other companies processors - for them, I still prefer my CB3 and Six Shooter.
But assuming the new ATI based Theta does some out with a HDMI digital solution at a reasonable price point for existing CB3 owners, then I will be a happy camper. IF!

Roger that! We can but hope...
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post #12 of 28
3/9/08 at 8:31pm
Thread Starter 
If it's a $1500 upgrade, and Steve reports that its performance is good (you know Steve will have it as soon as it's available) then I may just do the upgrade. A lot cheaper than buying a new processor. It's not that I am unhappy with the audio quality; just tired of waiting.

You know that ATI will not do an upgrade. It doesn't make sense. They'll charge for a whole new unit to help offset the purchase of Theta. What they won't count on is current users are not *as* dedicated as they once were. If you asked me the same question a year ago, I would (did) say that I would stay with Theta. Fast forward to today... it's got to make sense monetarily.
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post #13 of 28
3/9/08 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

If it's a $1500 upgrade, and Steve reports that its performance is good (you know Steve will have it as soon as it's available) then I may just do the upgrade. A lot cheaper than buying a new processor. It's not that I am unhappy with the audio quality; just tired of waiting.

You know that ATI will not do an upgrade. It doesn't make sense. They'll charge for a whole new unit to help offset the purchase of Theta. What they won't count on is current users are not *as* dedicated as they once were. If you asked me the same question a year ago, I would (did) say that I would stay with Theta. Fast forward to today... it's got to make sense monetarily.

The CB2 to CB3 was a 2 grand retail upgrade. The HDMI CB version upgrade will certainly be more involved and expensive. If you just are willing to spend $1,500 then I think you may as well move on. On the other hand, ATI has an outstanding industry reputation and I am hopeful that the upgrade/trade-in will be at "reasonable" cost though some will not deem the cost "reasonable". Thats generally how it goes.
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post #14 of 28
3/9/08 at 8:56pm
I would think 2 grand plus the cost of the actual optional HDMI card would not be unreasonable.
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post #15 of 28
3/10/08 at 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

You know that ATI will not do an upgrade. It doesn't make sense. They'll charge for a whole new unit to help offset the purchase of Theta. What they won't count on is current users are not *as* dedicated as they once were. If you asked me the same question a year ago, I would (did) say that I would stay with Theta. Fast forward to today... it's got to make sense monetarily.

I agree 100%. Some of the answers I have gotten have been specific enough. So for the first time, I am optimistic that some sort of upgrade is in fact taking place. What I wanted most was that my current dacs be utilized in the upgraded processor. I intend to upgrade to the Xtreme dacs but don't need my old dacs to be discontinued so that I can sell them. That at least appears to be going to happen. So at minimum, my dac cards are still useful.
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post #16 of 28
3/10/08 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

For multi-channel high resolution music, I would certainly consider the Meridian as "around the corner".

Well, I am turning the corner now as I am running SACD/DVD-A into the Meridian via Shawn Fogg's 3xS/PDIF mod. Very nice!!
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post #17 of 28
3/10/08 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, I am turning the corner now as I am running SACD/DVD-A into the Meridian via Shawn Fogg's 3xS/PDIF mod. Very nice!!

Congrats!!! I certainly can't argue with that. Too bad Shawn can't do this for my CB3!!!@@@ I am jealous!!!
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post #18 of 28
3/10/08 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Agreed but that leaves you dependant on the D/A of the player. In theory, getting the music out of the player (any one) and into the processor digitally would be superior because it would bypass the player's D/A and analog output stages. Probably around the corner.....................

I guess that's the theory and I wish that had been my experience. However, I have found, and I sure as hell wish it was not the case, that stand alone transports and separate pre-amps sound better . For example, I'd expect the Emm labs DAC6 and Switchman to outperform a Meridian 861 doing exactly what you describe with multi-channel SACD. That was certainly the case when I compared a stand alone player with the Six Shooter doing the volume control to the 861. IMO, it clearly outperformed the 861 in that capacity. For those not wanting the hassle of all of those cables, the sound quality might be in fact good enough. I can see that point of view. Even with the Meridian employing room correction, my friend/frat brother and I easily concluded that both the VTL 7.5 as well as the Six shooter combined with a separate cd player both sounded better with music. My perspective is that you are depedent upon the digital to analog conversion of the surround processor vs the player. In my experience the stand alone high end player usually wins that battle so I'd rather be dependent upon it than the surround processors with which I have hands on experience.
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post #19 of 28
3/10/08 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, I am turning the corner now as I am running SACD/DVD-A into the Meridian via Shawn Fogg's 3xS/PDIF mod. Very nice!!

How does this combination compare to the Audio Research MP1 and a stand alone DVD-A/SACD player?
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post #20 of 28
3/10/08 at 5:15pm
"Too bad Shawn can't do this for my CB3!!!"

You could get 2 channels this way. Doing more then that would involve modding the CB3 for 3x SPDIF input.

Shawn
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post #21 of 28
3/10/08 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, I am turning the corner now as I am running SACD/DVD-A into the Meridian via Shawn Fogg's 3xS/PDIF mod. Very nice!!

Kal,

Glad you like it.

Enjoy!

Shawn
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post #22 of 28
3/10/08 at 5:37pm
On an Oppo or what? Meridian has 3xSPDIF already
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post #23 of 28
3/10/08 at 6:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

On an Oppo or what? Meridian has 3xSPDIF already

Yes, an Oppo. And the Meridian has 2x3xS/PDIF!
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post #24 of 28
3/10/08 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Agreed but that leaves you dependant on the D/A of the player. In theory, getting the music out of the player (any one) and into the processor digitally would be superior because it would bypass the player's D/A and analog output stages. Probably around the corner.....................

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I guess that's the theory and I wish that had been my experience. However, I have found, and I sure as hell wish it was not the case, that stand alone transports and separate pre-amps sound better . For example, I'd expect the Emm labs DAC6 and Switchman to outperform a Meridian 861 doing exactly what you describe with multi-channel SACD. That was certainly the case when .....................

I didn't say it was a slam dunk since, as you know, there are too many variables to be completely pedantic about theory. However, given the resident Meridian 861 and Meridian's slow and uncertain progress to a functional HDMI input/processing, this was certainly a cost-effective temporary move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

How does this combination compare to the Audio Research MP1 and a stand alone DVD-A/SACD player?

You gotta wait until I write about it.
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post #25 of 28
3/10/08 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I didn't say it was a slam dunk since, as you know, there are too many variables to be completely pedantic about theory. However, given the resident Meridian 861 and Meridian's slow and uncertain progress to a functional HDMI input/processing, this was certainly a cost-effective temporary move.

You gotta wait until I write about it.


And my Theta Six Shooter is a great cost effective way to effectively use my "bland outdated long in the teeth" CB3 which still sounds awfully outstanding!!!@@@
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post #26 of 28
3/11/08 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I guess that's the theory and I wish that had been my experience. However, I have found, and I sure as hell wish it was not the case, that stand alone transports and separate pre-amps sound better . For example, I'd expect the Emm labs DAC6 and Switchman to outperform a Meridian 861 doing exactly what you describe with multi-channel SACD. That was certainly the case when I compared a stand alone player with the Six Shooter doing the volume control to the 861. IMO, it clearly outperformed the 861 in that capacity. For those not wanting the hassle of all of those cables, the sound quality might be in fact good enough. I can see that point of view. Even with the Meridian employing room correction, my friend/frat brother and I easily concluded that both the VTL 7.5 as well as the Six shooter combined with a separate cd player both sounded better with music. My perspective is that you are depedent upon the digital to analog conversion of the surround processor vs the player. In my experience the stand alone high end player usually wins that battle so I'd rather be dependent upon it than the surround processors with which I have hands on experience.


Right, but your comparison included an A to D step on the part of the 861. Kal's new setup eliminates that extra A to D conversion...
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post #27 of 28
3/13/08 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I didn't say it was a slam dunk since, as you know, there are too many variables to be completely pedantic about theory. However, given the resident Meridian 861 and Meridian's slow and uncertain progress to a functional HDMI input/processing, this was certainly a cost-effective temporary move.

You gotta wait until I write about it.

Well I have owned the Audio Research LS25MKII which I am told it borrows most of it's circuitry. I have compared both the Six Shooter and the LS25MKii and decidely prefer the Six Shooter. Audio Research makes great stuff and has advanced since the LS25 to the LS26 which a local dealer tells me is an improvement. He's a pretty straight guy ao I believe him. THe cool thing about the MP1 is that you get so many inputs for two channel sources. With the Six Shooter, it's bare bones BUT, it's a HOT ROD.
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post #28 of 28
3/13/08 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Binegar View Post

Right, but your comparison included an A to D step on the part of the 861. Kal's new setup eliminates that extra A to D conversion...

I also feed the 861 a digital input as well but not high rez. Digital input was limited to redbook. I like the Meridian 861 however. It's as fine a surround processor as I have ever heard.
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