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Official Wyred 4 Sound Amp Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 1513
3/15/08 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If you're not planning on using the Denons' amps at all then the 9.8 is by far the better value, with the 4308 costing around $2400. I would be reluctant to expect the same level of performance out of Denons' lower priced 3808, but you never know....

New 4308's from authorized re-sellers can be had for well under two grand. The Onkyo's do have a history of many Reon and other audio problems, so make sure you investigate and understand the issues to see if you will be affected. Personally, I sent my Onkyo 905 back to Onkyo for a refund and got a Denon 3808 and haven't looked back.
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post #62 of 1513
3/15/08 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

The Onkyo's do have a history of many Reon and other audio problems, so make sure you investigate and understand the issues to see if you will be affected. Personally, I sent my Onkyo 905 back to Onkyo for a refund and got a Denon 3808 and haven't looked back.

Oh come on!
You could go to any thread about any 1.3 receiver or pre-pro and get a mitt-full of so called "bugs". For every guy like you returning the 905 there's a guy returning the 3808 for some reason, in fact you're replying on the 3808 thread to guy that's likely doing just that.

Like the 3808 or anything else these things are now incredibly complex and compatibility with peripherals simply can't hit 100%. My 9.8 used exclusively with HDMI 1.3 and 1.2a components works flawlessly and sounds great. But hey - so did the 4306.

You are right about one thing though - do your homework and make sure the unit you choose doesn't have bugs that would affect your set-up or intended use.
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post #63 of 1513
3/15/08 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

just recieved a new wyred4sound amp. 7x500. Havnt had the chance to hook it up yet. I will try to get it up and running this weekend if I have time. I did open up the box. It comes doubled boxed and set into a foam support.
I have to say that the unit itself is a lot nicer looking then the web site pictures indicate. I wanted to hook it up with XLR connectors but there is no place around that has them under 20' or you want to spend $110 (3') per cable x 7. (not a snow balls chance in hell.)

perhaps EJ can chime in about SQ between balanced or unbalanced connectors. I might go with RCA connectors until I can order XLRs.

Even though the amplifier will be driven balanced on a single-ended source, there are many advantages to using balanced (XLR). This would mainly be beneficial if you can connect from the beginning with XLR all the way to the amplifier.

An RCA connector consists of a + signal, and ground (shield). An XLR connector consists of a + signal, - signal, and ground (shield).

When using RCA, the ground (shield) is connected to the – signal input on the amplifier. If you have any noise or interference in your system, it will be amplified through the amp, and out your speakers. The amplifier then derives the – signal from the + signal by inverting it 180deg out of phase with respect to the + input.

When using XLR the + and – signals are a product of the source, and the ground is simply a shield. The major advantage is that the ground or shield isn’t tied in with any of the signals. Not to mention that neither of the signals are “made up”, or referenced to ground.

All in all, we have found that XLR connections have a much better sonics than RCA. The most noticable would be that the noise level is reduced. Some of the cheapest XLR cables, can be much better than some of the expensive RCA's, so that would be something to consider. However, if you have a REALLY quiet system (noise), you wouldn't see much improvement.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #64 of 1513
3/15/08 at 9:02pm
Are your amps truely balanced?
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post #65 of 1513
3/15/08 at 10:01pm
I manage to find the time to hook up the new amp. I just used the RCA cables. I did find a local electronic shop that had XLR but they were out of the length I wanted. I did find all the parts and wire to make them myself which might be a great DIY project for later.

The amp I have is the W4S 7x500, speakers Monitor Audio PL300s.

This hobby that we do has its moments. After hooking up the amp I put in a cd, Eric Clapton - Unplugged. One of my favorites. As it started to play there is the live audience clapping. Sorry and I hate to say it but I was expecting more. More What? I am not sure just more. Well when Eric Clapton starts playing...I got more, way more ...this is one of those moments that we really appriciate why we do this hobby. The sound sound stage became more open and full, the music more detailed, responsive and dynamic. The mids and highs were much more articulate playing at levels that I never heard before on my system. The bass was just amazing not just in the lower range but in the upper bass range. I play music in 2 channel without subs and when others heard it they thought for sure I must have had the subs running.

I played all types of music and everything sounded better except the cds that didnt have a good recording. They sounded much worse to the point you just didnt want to hear any more. This amp didnt add anything to the sound and it certainly did take anything out. it is not a forgiving amp. What went in came out. For better or worse. So you better have speakers up to the challenge.

It was a strange thing to turn the volume up. The more I turn it up the better the sound got like hitting the nitro in a race car. You think you maxed out but then there is just more. Like it is just hiding waiting to be released and sounding better and better. Its performance is amazing and as much as I like this amp and try to explain what I was hearing there was something else about the sound that I can not explain. Something different in the music. It was warm... had more soul in the music...something. Cant really explain it. Maybe that is what they refer to as a "tube sound".

One thing to nit-pick. On my other amp the power light is different from the standby mode and operational mode The power button on the W4S has a blue ring light when the power is on. When in the standby mode it doesnt change. I wasnt sure if the amp had shut down until I saw lights inside the amp were off.



Thanks EJ for all your help and being so available for us consumers. In the end that is what really sold me on the W4S amp. Now that I have it, the amp speaks for itself.
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post #66 of 1513
3/16/08 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

...
This hobby that we do has its moments. After hooking up the amp I put in a cd, Eric Clapton - Unplugged. One of my favorites. As it started to play there is the live audience clapping. Sorry and I hate to say it but I was expecting more. More What? I am not sure just more. Well when Eric Clapton starts playing...I got more, way more ...this is one of those moments that we really appriciate why we do this hobby. The sound sound stage became more open and full, the music more detailed, responsive and dynamic. The mids and highs were much more articulate playing at levels that I never heard before on my system. The bass was just amazing not just in the lower range but in the upper bass range.,.

Heh heh. Skeered ya, huh? I hooked mine up and immediately slapped in a reference disc. Sounded like crap. How about letting the amp warm up, Jack?!!? I leave them on all the time now.
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post #67 of 1513
3/16/08 at 10:44am
Slybasil,

Cincy's got a point, albeit with an unusual delivery.

You'll likely find that these amps will get even better once they get warmed up and although you can argue the "burn in" theory these amps do perform noticably better when well warmed up and seem to loose a bit if you turn them off for any length of time, that is they almost seem to need to be "burned in" again. I do the same as Cincy and leave them on all the time.
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post #68 of 1513
3/16/08 at 10:53am
EJ, any thoughts about the new ASX2 modules, or plans to use them? Some interesting possibilities.

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com...er/ASX2_SERIES

"The ASX2 Series is based on the 3rd generation of ICEpower technologies, which take the audio performance to the next level. The advancements include extended bandwidth, improved dynamic range and an exceptionally low distortion."
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post #69 of 1513
3/16/08 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyJack View Post

Heh heh. Skeered ya, huh? I hooked mine up and immediately slapped in a reference disc. Sounded like crap. How about letting the amp warm up, Jack?!!? I leave them on all the time now.


skeered only for a little while. but like you said once they warmed up there was no stopping them. I to leave them on all the time.
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post #70 of 1513
3/16/08 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattburk View Post

Are your amps truely balanced?

Yes, our amplifiers are truely balanced in and out. That is why it's important to not connect either of the outputs to high level inputs on a powered sub not designed for it.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #71 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

I manage to find the time to hook up the new amp. I just used the RCA cables. I did find a local electronic shop that had XLR but they were out of the length I wanted. I did find all the parts and wire to make them myself which might be a great DIY project for later.

The amp I have is the W4S 7x500, speakers Monitor Audio PL300s.

This hobby that we do has its moments. After hooking up the amp I put in a cd, Eric Clapton - Unplugged. One of my favorites. As it started to play there is the live audience clapping. Sorry and I hate to say it but I was expecting more. More What? I am not sure just more. Well when Eric Clapton starts playing...I got more, way more ...this is one of those moments that we really appriciate why we do this hobby. The sound sound stage became more open and full, the music more detailed, responsive and dynamic. The mids and highs were much more articulate playing at levels that I never heard before on my system. The bass was just amazing not just in the lower range but in the upper bass range. I play music in 2 channel without subs and when others heard it they thought for sure I must have had the subs running.

I played all types of music and everything sounded better except the cds that didnt have a good recording. They sounded much worse to the point you just didnt want to hear any more. This amp didnt add anything to the sound and it certainly did take anything out. it is not a forgiving amp. What went in came out. For better or worse. So you better have speakers up to the challenge.

It was a strange thing to turn the volume up. The more I turn it up the better the sound got like hitting the nitro in a race car. You think you maxed out but then there is just more. Like it is just hiding waiting to be released and sounding better and better. Its performance is amazing and as much as I like this amp and try to explain what I was hearing there was something else about the sound that I can not explain. Something different in the music. It was warm... had more soul in the music...something. Cant really explain it. Maybe that is what they refer to as a "tube sound".

One thing to nit-pick. On my other amp the power light is different from the standby mode and operational mode The power button on the W4S has a blue ring light when the power is on. When in the standby mode it doesnt change. I wasnt sure if the amp had shut down until I saw lights inside the amp were off.



Thanks EJ for all your help and being so available for us consumers. In the end that is what really sold me on the W4S amp. Now that I have it, the amp speaks for itself.

Thank you for the positive feedback! Interactions I have with all of you is what keeps me doing this, I enjoy it.

Sorry about the ring light. It should dim when the amp goes into standby. We played around with the brightness of that LED a lot, but it may not be right depending on the lighting in the environment. I will check into this, and make appropriate changes. Do you think that we should make it go out when in stand-by, or make it dim more? Feedback is important, without it, a highly tuned product would be hard to accomplish.

Thank you,

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #72 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Thank you for the positive feedback! Do you think that we should make it go out when in stand-by, or make it dim more? Feedback is important, without it, a highly tuned product would be hard to accomplish.

www.wyred4sound.com

While I'm not a W4S owner (yet), I personally like LEDs to be very dim, or able to be switched off. My gear is directly below my TV and having bright LEDs is a big distraction. For my DTV HR10-100 The ring light has several dim levels, including off. I always have mine off.
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post #73 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

While I'm not a W4S owner (yet), I personally like LEDs to be very dim, or able to be switched off. My gear is directly below my TV and having bright LEDs is a big distraction. For my DTV HR10-100 The ring light has several dim levels, including off. I always have mine off.

I agree, when I was tweaking the first pair of mono's at home, the LED bar was too bright, I had to dim it way down. I believe that the ring light on the MC is by far softer in comparison to the "beaming blue LEDs" they seem to put on DVD palyers these days.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #74 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Oh come on!
You could go to any thread about any 1.3 receiver or pre-pro and get a mitt-full of so called "bugs". For every guy like you returning the 905 there's a guy returning the 3808 for some reason, in fact you're replying on the 3808 thread to guy that's likely doing just that.

Like the 3808 or anything else these things are now incredibly complex and compatibility with peripherals simply can't hit 100%. My 9.8 used exclusively with HDMI 1.3 and 1.2a components works flawlessly and sounds great. But hey - so did the 4306.

You are right about one thing though - do your homework and make sure the unit you choose doesn't have bugs that would affect your set-up or intended use.

Correct! The thing I can't under stand is why he hasn't let it go. If I was that happy with my new unit, I would.
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post #75 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

EJ, any thoughts about the new ASX2 modules, or plans to use them? Some interesting possibilities.

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com...er/ASX2_SERIES

"The ASX2 Series is based on the 3rd generation of ICEpower technologies, which take the audio performance to the next level. The advancements include extended bandwidth, improved dynamic range and an exceptionally low distortion."

Great question! Yes we do have plans for these modules in the future. I have already designed an input stage for another customer of ours to be used the the 125ASX2 modules. We're currently trying to squeeze the best performance out of it as possible. These modules take a buch of circuitry on the front end to perform on are standards. The cool thing about them is you can bridge it. They seem to have fairly high output and really good specs.
A work in progress though.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #76 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Great question! Yes we do have plans for these modules in the future. I have already designed an input stage for another customer of ours to be used the the 125ASX2 modules. We're currently trying to squeeze the best performance out of it as possible. These modules take a buch of circuitry on the front end to perform on are standards. The cool thing about them is you can bridge it. They seem to have fairly high output and really good specs.
A work in progress though.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

Do you ultimately expect better AQ from these modules once you get your tweaks dialed in?
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post #77 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:50pm
I bought the IceCube 200-S (based on the ASC-200) from EJ a couple
of months back and still very pleased with it.
It drives a pair of Martin Logan Scripts via the balanced input.

The nicest unexpected feature was the ability to turn on and off automatically.
The amps are within 18 inches of the speakers so this proved very useful.
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post #78 of 1513
3/16/08 at 12:54pm
"You'll likely find that these amps will get even better once they get warmed up "

Are you sure it's the amp and not your ears?

Have you let it warm up w/o listening to it and observed the same?
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post #79 of 1513
3/16/08 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Thank you for the positive feedback! Interactions I have with all of you is what keeps me doing this, I enjoy it.

Sorry about the ring light. It should dim when the amp goes into standby. We played around with the brightness of that LED a lot, but it may not be right depending on the lighting in the environment. I will check into this, and make appropriate changes. Do you think that we should make it go out when in stand-by, or make it dim more? Feedback is important, without it, a highly tuned product would be hard to accomplish.

Thank you,

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com


Then dimming is slight. if your not looking for the difference you would never notice.
I dont think it should go off when in standby. If there is no light then it is hard to tell that it is even on. Someone else turning the sytem on doesnt know its in standbye. Maybe if it changed color or even light only half the ring or just have a standby light seperate from the ring. Something to tell you that it is on (standby) but something with a definate difference when its operational.


Just out of curiosity how much power does a module use in standby compared to the module being fully on but not being used. Is there a difference
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post #80 of 1513
3/16/08 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

Do you ultimately expect better AQ from these modules once you get your tweaks dialed in?

At this point, we have a lot of work to do if we can get the AQ to be better. The current amplifiers are really hard to beat.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #81 of 1513
3/16/08 at 2:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

Then dimming is slight. if your not looking for the difference you would never notice.
I dont think it should go off when in standby. If there is no light then it is hard to tell that it is even on. Someone else turning the sytem on doesnt know its in standbye. Maybe if it changed color or even light only half the ring or just have a standby light seperate from the ring. Something to tell you that it is on (standby) but something with a definate difference when its operational.


Just out of curiosity how much power does a module use in standby compared to the module being fully on but not being used. Is there a difference

Yes, I agree, that was the intention of the dimming. The LED's must have a larger tolerance than expected. I will have to change the brightness on standby mode to make sure it's "dim" when in standby, and "less dim" when on. Thank you for your feedback on this.

When the amplifier goes into standby via the 12V trigger, it actually disconnects the modules from the line, so the modules are completely off. The only consumption would be from the standby power supply, which would be minimal to none.

If the amplifier is on and idling (no music), there will be about 15W of power dissipation per channel. One thing to consider is the protection of your amp. When it's off, the line voltage cannot damage the modules in any way. If it's on all the time, it would be susceptible to line surges, spikes, etc. Realistically, the amplifier tends to sound better if left on all the time, but it doesn't take long to come back up to operating temp either.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #82 of 1513
3/16/08 at 4:36pm
[quote=WYRED 4 SOUND;13394793]

If the amplifier is on and idling (no music), there will be about 15W of power dissipation per channel. One thing to consider is the protection of your amp. When it's off, the line voltage cannot damage the modules in any way. If it's on all the time, it would be susceptible to line surges, spikes, etc. Realistically, the amplifier tends to sound better if left on all the time, but it doesn't take long to come back up to operating temp either.



If each amp draws 15w per channel and you are playing two channel music does that mean an amp with 7 channels is drawing 75w of power doing nothing?

I was just wondering..with all the energy efficient technology, what would it take to make a "smart amp". Have a way to only power on the actual amps you need while the others remain in stand by
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post #83 of 1513
3/16/08 at 4:42pm
Quote:


Have a way to only power on the actual amps you need while the others remain in stand by

The nht power5 can do this ( turn off the other 3 channels when it signals only two channels being used ) but only in conjunction with the nht controller.
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post #84 of 1513
3/16/08 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"You'll likely find that these amps will get even better once they get warmed up "

Are you sure it's the amp and not your ears?

Nope, not sure, could very well be 100% just "perception" on my part.

Nothing scientific here, just anecdotal stuff. I'm not the only one though, lots of others report the same thing - it could be the power of persuation...
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post #85 of 1513
3/16/08 at 7:05pm
[quote=slybasil;13395569]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post


If the amplifier is on and idling (no music), there will be about 15W of power dissipation per channel. One thing to consider is the protection of your amp. When it's off, the line voltage cannot damage the modules in any way. If it's on all the time, it would be susceptible to line surges, spikes, etc. Realistically, the amplifier tends to sound better if left on all the time, but it doesn't take long to come back up to operating temp either.



If each amp draws 15w per channel and you are playing two channel music does that mean an amp with 7 channels is drawing 75w of power doing nothing?

I was just wondering..with all the energy efficient technology, what would it take to make a "smart amp". Have a way to only power on the actual amps you need while the others remain in stand by

Correct, however, 75W is less than the common 100W incandescent light bulb. On a typical class A/B amplifier, you'd be looking at about 40W per channel doing the same thing. A problem with a smart amp like you mentioned would be that the surround channels have occasional usage which may disable the amp on a long, quiet passage, then turn on to late when it should've been processing something. Unless there would be a smart amp bypass switch. This could be something to look into?

Heat is normally a good indicator of wasted power, and as most can see these amps don't even run hot under full load.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #86 of 1513
3/16/08 at 8:54pm
EJ, along Noahs' line of questioning and the above "leaving it on" topic have you done any measurements to see the difference between a cold amp and a warmed up amp. Or the diff between a new amp cold and an old one (burned in) that's been idling for a while. I just wonder if there's anything to back up the perception that I have.
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post #87 of 1513
3/17/08 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Sorry about the ring light. It should dim when the amp goes into standby. We played around with the brightness of that LED a lot, but it may not be right depending on the lighting in the environment. I will check into this, and make appropriate changes. Do you think that we should make it go out when in stand-by, or make it dim more? Feedback is important, without it, a highly tuned product would be hard to accomplish.

Thank you,

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

I have the same issue with my light, it seems to be at the same brightness all the time regardless of use. I would perfer the light to be bright while "on" and playing music and very, very dim when "on" and not in use.

Mike
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post #88 of 1513
3/17/08 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by slybasil View Post

I manage to find the time to hook up the new amp. I just used the RCA cables. I did find a local electronic shop that had XLR but they were out of the length I wanted. I did find all the parts and wire to make them myself which might be a great DIY project for later.

The amp I have is the W4S 7x500, speakers Monitor Audio PL300s.

This hobby that we do has its moments. After hooking up the amp I put in a cd, Eric Clapton - Unplugged. One of my favorites. As it started to play there is the live audience clapping. Sorry and I hate to say it but I was expecting more. More What? I am not sure just more. Well when Eric Clapton starts playing...I got more, way more ...this is one of those moments that we really appriciate why we do this hobby. The sound sound stage became more open and full, the music more detailed, responsive and dynamic. The mids and highs were much more articulate playing at levels that I never heard before on my system. The bass was just amazing not just in the lower range but in the upper bass range. I play music in 2 channel without subs and when others heard it they thought for sure I must have had the subs running.

I played all types of music and everything sounded better except the cds that didnt have a good recording. They sounded much worse to the point you just didnt want to hear any more. This amp didnt add anything to the sound and it certainly did take anything out. it is not a forgiving amp. What went in came out. For better or worse. So you better have speakers up to the challenge.

It was a strange thing to turn the volume up. The more I turn it up the better the sound got like hitting the nitro in a race car. You think you maxed out but then there is just more. Like it is just hiding waiting to be released and sounding better and better. Its performance is amazing and as much as I like this amp and try to explain what I was hearing there was something else about the sound that I can not explain. Something different in the music. It was warm... had more soul in the music...something. Cant really explain it. Maybe that is what they refer to as a "tube sound".

One thing to nit-pick. On my other amp the power light is different from the standby mode and operational mode The power button on the W4S has a blue ring light when the power is on. When in the standby mode it doesnt change. I wasnt sure if the amp had shut down until I saw lights inside the amp were off.



Thanks EJ for all your help and being so available for us consumers. In the end that is what really sold me on the W4S amp. Now that I have it, the amp speaks for itself.

Awesome review, and very well said. I would have to agree with your posts regarding the sound, as it has been my experience too. I'm glad to hear that you will be greatly enjoying your amplifier like the rest of us!

Mike
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post #89 of 1513
3/17/08 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

EJ, along Noahs' line of questioning and the above "leaving it on" topic have you done any measurements to see the difference between a cold amp and a warmed up amp. Or the diff between a new amp cold and an old one (burned in) that's been idling for a while. I just wonder if there's anything to back up the perception that I have.

Yes, I have definitely noticed this when we were doing A/B comparisons in the past. At first, they sound hard, bright and almost distorted. However, it seems only to take 15-30min to be gone. But yes, they do sound less than perfect right off the bat when powered up. My opinion anyways.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com
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post #90 of 1513
3/17/08 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Yes, I have definitely noticed this when we were doing A/B comparisons in the past. At first, they sound hard, bright and almost distorted. However, it seems only to take 15-30min to be gone. But yes, they do sound less than perfect right off the bat when powered up. My opinion anyways.

EJ Sarmento
sales@wyred4sound.com
www.wyred4sound.com

That's exactly what I heard. No doubt about it. Nothing subjective about it; it IS brittle and distorted at first. But then... ahh...
I'm digging these NOS Tungsram tubes up front.
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