What manufacturers wont tell you, Is this right?

Your terminology is not accurate.

Bitstreaming of advanced codecs from BD players requires capable HDMI 1.3 player as well as a capable HDMI 1.3 receiver (such as the 3808).

Internal decoding of advanced codecs into either 5.1/7.1 PCM through HDMI (requires at least a capable HDMI 1.1 player) or 5.1/7.1 analog output as well as a capable receiver with HDMI 1.1 for PCM or 5.1/7.1 analog inputs.

There is no player in the market right now that can do internal decoding of DTS-HD-ma. There are several receivers however.

Regarding video, the scalers on the TV may not be as good as the scalers on the receiver. If your TV is a budget 1080p TV that has crappy 480i/p to 1080p conversion, then 1080p content will look great, but 480i/p and even 720p may look like crap. A good receiver with a good scaler might do the trick. Also, it can also do it for all your sources including cable box, VCR (ouch), game systems, etc. I am not a big fan of these scalers since my TV has a very capable scaler.

ALL digital displays convert incoming video to their own native resolution so you do NOT need "upconverting" players or receivers.

READ the link in my sig!

This is absolutely true. HOWEVER ... if you cannot DEFEAT the scaler in your TV (and that is the majority of them) all you are doing is adding a second scaler to the first and IMPROVING NOTHING.

the cardinal rule of scaling is "If you have to scale at all, do it only once!"

Can't quite fathom the questions. This thread might be good to read, though.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

Ahh, hadn't realized that. So, even if you send an upscaled image from an AVR at a display's native resolution, you can't assume the scaler is bypassed?

I'm using a Denon AVR 3808 and love it. I'd have been happy to do without it, but even wth a sophisticated audio card in the PC I couldn't really see a good way to do it.

Two other things to consider:

1) if you're running multiple sources the modern receivers provide an extra layer of management that can be extremely useful. For example, a DVD player can be mapped to multiple inputs such that one is labeled CD, and outputs pure stereo only, another can be labeled DVD and outputs Dolby/DTS SS along with sending the video feed to your TV. For people like my wife and children this is invaluable.

2) the modern receivers will do automatic room compensation and allow sophisticated room surround handling modes you won't find elsewhere.

Modern receivers are essentially powerful proprietary computers, there's a lot more in there than some simple decoders. Beside when the kids crank up the volume in the Den, there's nothing quite like being able to connect to your receiver via the Web interface and turn down the volume while you're working in the office.

Oh, and I run a Samsung LN-T5265, I can turn off the TV's scaler (and do)...

Yes BUT your receiver will generally only offer you the choice of 720p (1280x720) or 1080i/p (1920x1080). If your TV/display happens to be EXACTLY 1280x720 or 1920x1080 then you could reasonably expect the internal scaler to be defeated but that is not assured.

HOWEVER, most middlin' TVs and displays are NOT true HDTV resolutions of 1280x720 or 1920x1080 !!

There are a lot of 1366x768 and 1024x768, etc., out there and in those cases the internal TV scaler cannot be defeated! If you were using a player or external scaler that offered "custom" resolutions you might be able to match those bastard resolutions but no AVR that I am aware of has that capability.

Here is my response in another thread which provides more detail:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmil

A number of posts have suggested the your DVD play be set to 480 i or p AND let your TV do the conversion to 720P "If it has a good processor".

Here is the Dick and Jane approach:

• The native resolution of a SD DVD is 480i or 720x480
• 720p is 1280x720
• 1080i/p is 1920x1080

Your Panasonic TH-50PX80U TV resolution is 1366x768; this is a non-standard resolution! It is not 720p and it is not 1080i/p

You have THREE options: !!

• If you set your DVD player to 720p: the player upconverts the 720x480 native DVD image to 1280x720 (720p) which the TV then has to further upconvert to 1366x768 before it can display it. This is a double conversion. Not good.
• If you set your DVD player to 1080i: the player upconverts the 720x480 native DVD image to 1920x1080 (1080i) which the TV then has to downconvert to 1366x768 before it can display it. This is a double conversion. Not good.
• If you set your DVD player to 480i/p: the player sends the 720x480 native DVD image to the TV which upconverts it directly to 1366x768 to display it. This is the minimum amount of processing possible. This provides the most pristine image available.

Using an external scaler (DVD player or otherwise) is only of benefit if you can defeat the TV's scaler.

Because your TV is a non-standard resolution, your TV scaler is ALWAYS

But in the end, you should try all combinations and use what you LIKE!

What about a HD satellite, HD cable box, or Blu-Ray source? These are 720p or greater are they not?

I don't know if this question is directed to me but:

HD satellite and cable boxes generally offer 480i/p, 720p or 1080i output resolutions. The native TV network source resolutions are:

• 480i (720x480) All non-HDTV (576i in Europe)
• 720p (1280x720) ABC-HD, FOX-HD, ESPN-HD and Nat Geo-HD
• 1080i (1920x1080) "everybody else"-HD

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray generally offer 480p, 720p 1080i/p output resolutions and the native HDM media resolution is 1920x1080

For best PQ, the idea is to match the native source resolution to the native display resolution directly or, if that can't happen, to convert the source resolution to the display native resolution in as few steps as possible. Daisy-chaining resolution converters is a recipe for bad PQ.

The high points in the AVR FAQ I wrote appear to agree with Bob's points in his "how much is that scaler in the window" primer.

I was still left wondering why I would ever care about scaling. Deinterlacing, sure. Video processing features beyond deinterlacing/scaling such as HDMI up and noise reduction possibly. But scaling?

One problem I have with scaling is when your display has a non standard resolution such as the odd 720 resolutions on LCD displays. I believe Cavu pointed that out.

Another problem I have is that the math involved in scalers should be pretty standard. Computers have been scaling for many years using various interpolation and anti-aliasing techniques. One assumes that the vast majority of single chip solutions are using tried and true math (which should include even the basic chips in TVs.)

Given a high quality deinterlaced source, chips should be able to scale with very high quality unless the chips designers were idiots who ignore the substantial knowledge base available.

A low quality source is another matter. Take analog cable. Mine sucks. It's bad. It's unwatchable in some cases! I mean it, literally, I can't watch some channels, including my analog Fox (It's repeated in HD, thankfully.) How much do you expect a VP to be able to do to correct that signal?

Take an XBox360 via component. Looks fantastic over component. I used HDMI up with no other processing. Looks fantastic. Some receivers supposedly have poor HDMI up. Don't buy a receiver with poor HDMI up if you want to use HDMI up.

Summary - Get a good deinterlacing optical player, and don't scale at the AVR unless it actually looks better

p.s./rant -

I feel that people often feel they need a certain technology simply because it's there! The DVD player with Dolby Digital is SO good, it's hard to see much improvement over it with a good amp/speaker setup. That includes 7.1, HD video and lossless audio. I am not saying these things are bad. I am simply saying that we need to think criticially, and ask what we are getting for our hard earned jack.

Ok, that's as I understood it, as well as the exceptions for non-standard resolutions.


That's pretty much my approach. My everyday display is a direct-view CRT that supports 720p and 1080i natively, so I have my HD STB in pass-through mode to view each channel untouched. The PJ is 720, I don't think its scaler is that great as both my Oppo 970 and Toshiba A2 look better at 720 than any other. 480p looks pretty bad.


Indeed.

Click my link, just read the first post.

Yes, I was asking you and thanks.