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NHT power5 amp, Givin it some lovin - Page 18

post #511 of 584
Man I would love to sit down with you and talk About this. Too bad that will probably never happen.....

Thats some porn for sure. Sadly it would all have to go. I don't know enough to even know why all that was needed for a power supply. I thought I read somewhere that there were 3 modules in the Power 2 and that one of them acted as the power supply for the other 2. Would you mind giving me a more detailed rundown on how this puppy works?
post #512 of 584
OK how about this. If the power 2 has two 500a's and one 500asp's then the potential is there for 3x500w at 4Ohms. I know you rated the power more conservative, thats fine. What I don't understand is what role the 500ASP has. If it was needed for the switching power (supply) then why not just use 2 500ASP and be done with it?
post #513 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

Here is a photo of the switching power supply used in the Power2. Which parts do you want to change to increase the power output?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...X/DSC01312.jpg

Isn't that a pic of 4 ICE 500 ASP's and 3 ICE 1000 ASP's in one amp?
post #514 of 584
The Power2 uses one 500ASP and TWO 500As. The amplifier channel on the 500ASP does nothing. This way both channels have absolutely identical behavior since they use exactly the same amplifier module. Using two 500ASPs would have made the Power2 more expensive.

The Power2 has the capibility of 3x500W into 4ohms ONLY in the sense that the amplifiers are capable of that. If the power supply can't take the 120VAC and turn 1,500+W into the DC voltage that the amplifiers need, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how large your car engine is if the fuel system can only deliver 1 gallon of fuel per hour. That will limit the engines power.

Yes, the photo is of an amplifer with all of those B&O ICE modules in it. It was the fastest photo I could find of a 500ASP module.
post #515 of 584
I bought two Power 2's from listen up to replace a Rotel 5 channel digital amp (I think the 1077 or something). For what I sold the Rotel for on Audiogon, the price difference was close and I was able to get more power, I run the rear channels from my receiver and the front 3 into the Power 2's. The build quality is much more robust than the Rotel which was nicely made but a little light for my taste. The Rotel had plenty of power but the NHT just give me a little more and they look nice too. The only thing is that I had to buy a ground loop isolater, something I didn't need with the Rotel.
post #516 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

The Power2 uses one 500ASP and TWO 500As. The amplifier channel on the 500ASP does nothing. This way both channels have absolutely identical behavior since they use exactly the same amplifier module. Using two 500ASPs would have made the Power2 more expensive.

The Power2 has the capability of 3x500W into 4ohms ONLY in the sense that the amplifiers are capable of that. If the power supply can't take the 120VAC and turn 1,500+W into the DC voltage that the amplifiers need, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how large your car engine is if the fuel system can only deliver 1 gallon of fuel per hour. That will limit the engines power.

Yes, the photo is of an amplifier with all of those B&O ICE modules in it. It was the fastest photo I could find of a 500ASP module.


Thanks for the reply Jack.

I understand that the power supply is the choke point on these amps. My question is why couldn't someone take out the 2 500A modules and put in one more 500ASP. Wouldn't this give 2 power supply to feed 2x the power to the amps so they could give the rated 500w @ 4 Ohm? OR Couldn't the 500ASP module be removed and replaced with a AC/DC converter that would supply enough voltage to the 500A's to reach rated power?

Also, what is the DC output on the 500ASP?

I'm thankful you have taken the time to answer my questions. I hate it when ppl argue over stuff like this on here and I hope that isn't the impression I'm giving off.
post #517 of 584
From an electrical standpoint, you could remove the two 500A modules and replace them with a 500ASP module. This would give you 500W/ch into 4ohms. This would also require quite a bit of rewiring. There are several other PC boards that interface with the B&O modules inside. Some things are going to have to be redesigned a little to make this work electrically.

From a mechanical standpoint, I'd have to look at the drawings to see if it could fit at all.

I think the DC output from the 500ASP is around 70VDC or so.

I don't think you are arguing at all.
post #518 of 584
A few things on the question of modding these, as hypothetical as it may be ...

- Anybody interested in the topic should read Jack's other comments in this thread. In particular, his comments about how the B&O modules aren't entirely an all in one solution - no shielding, and some gaps in protections that an amp typically has:

Quote:


I completely agree about the total lack of protection circuitry on the B&O modules. It was very shortsighted of B&O to not include anything and especially dumb to not disclose this for a long time. For both the P2 and P5, we had to build an extra PCB to add all of the normal protection to the amplifier. Shorts, DC, etc. Any power amplifier without these basic protection circuits is just not acceptable. - post

So there's not just modules in a box with connectors on the back and a power switch - there's that stuff, plus the NHT bus and front panel control and maybe more.

You can find his comments easily by going to this search page (an Advanced Search for this thread), then search for posts by Jack Hidley. Doing it from this thread will give you just his posts in this thread.

- Setting aside all that for a minute, though ... broadly speaking, couldn't you just disconnect the 500ASP from one or both of the 500As and run a completely separate power supply? IIRC these modules allow for some voltage variation, so it might not be terrible sensitive to a less than perfect power supply, though the cleaner the better no doubt. There are definitely DIYers running just the modules hooked to a power supply.

- The other thing that's potentially interesting is the detailed data sheets on the modules at B&O's site: 500A for amplifier performance and 500ASP for power supply.

- The other mod that has been suggested is to tap into the audio channel on the ASP module to make this a three channel amp.

One minor topic- there was a post in another thread about how one of the IcePower 1000 modules had a lot of distortion in the treble at higher wattages. If that's an issue with all of this generation of modules, it suggested to me that even though the amp is only designed for 200 WPC at 8 ohms, there's another advantage to having the 500A modules if using a module in the lower range of its capabilities reduces the distortion. Though it might not be an audible difference.

Though far, far more important is the ability of one channel to use extra power when the other channel doesn't need it.

Anyway, it would seem using the 500 series modules would give these amps some real advantages over an amp that used the 200 modules, at least if you ever used more than 50-70 WPC or so. So even though the design is a little unusual, it has some advantages.
post #519 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

From an electrical standpoint, you could remove the two 500A modules and replace them with a 500ASP module. This would give you 500W/ch into 4ohms. This would also require quite a bit of rewiring. There are several other PC boards that interface with the B&O modules inside. Some things are going to have to be redesigned a little to make this work electrically.

From a mechanical standpoint, I'd have to look at the drawings to see if it could fit at all.

I think the DC output from the 500ASP is around 70VDC or so.

I don't think you are arguing at all.

Thanks Jack, I'm thinking along the lines of what Buzzy said. If i remove the 500ASP and add in a power supply that can feed 160V I should be good to go. Then I can take the 500ASP module and mount it in my center for a powered center channel.

As far as the lack of electrical protection, I think B&O has updated the modules from what I have read. If the ones used in the Power 2 are without any protection it would be easy to build a board to do so or just use external protection. My fear is that by adding too much to the power flow would affect the sound.
post #520 of 584
^^^ Just find a used Power5. It already has two 500ASPs, one each on Channels 1 and 5.
post #521 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

^^^ Just find a used Power5. It already has two 500ASPs, one each on Channels 1 and 5.

Or I could buy 2 more power 2's for less. The point is more about the fun of doing it, not what I end up with.
post #522 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

Thanks Jack, I'm thinking along the lines of what Buzzy said. If i remove the 500ASP and add in a power supply that can feed 160V I should be good to go. Then I can take the 500ASP module and mount it in my center for a powered center channel.

As far as the lack of electrical protection, I think B&O has updated the modules from what I have read. If the ones used in the Power 2 are without any protection it would be easy to build a board to do so or just use external protection. My fear is that by adding too much to the power flow would affect the sound.

The ASP modules physically are about twice as large as the A modules. The ASP modules have full protection and if you look at the wiring in a power 5, the speaker terminals fed by the ASP modules are wired directly. It is the A modules that require the protection circuits that are laid out on the speaker terminal board.
post #523 of 584
How long did it take you guys to get your amp from listenup? Did they email you a tracking number when it shipped?
post #524 of 584
I managed to snag one off Audiogon, and just WOW. This amp is so neutral I just want to keep turning up the volume!

Before I bought it, I read the entire thread twice to make sure ICEPower was the real deal. Now I am a believer! The Power5 really opened up my Paradigm Studio speakers, and it sounds so much better than the Panasonic XR55 I was using to hold me over.

I have my Power5 paired up with an Anthem AVM30, and I can hear every little detail for my music and movies.

Thanks again!

Ming
post #525 of 584
Looks like it may be last call on the Power2, I can't find it on ListenUp's site anymore and their eBay listing is for an open box amp.

mongoose, they ship within a day or so, then add UPS ground transit time from Colorado to wherever you are. Their tracking number system seems a little messed up, but check your email and spam folders for a message from them or QuantumView, the UPS service. If you don't see it, contact ListenUp, tell them you've already checked for the email and ask for the tracking. But don't worry, they are entirely reliable in terms of shipping.
post #526 of 584
Leave your source playing. Put the amp into standby (Power2 in this case). Amp goes quiet. Turn off the power at the power strip, not the switch in the back. Hey, it plays one last little snippet of music before it goes quiet ...
post #527 of 584
I ran into a interesting problem when I put my Power5 back into my system. I am using a Onkyo 805 as a Pre-pro which I use Zone 2 for triggering the amp on and off. When I connected everything up I could not find the original 12v trigger cable I had used (Ratshak I believe). So I used the 12v trigger cable that comes with the Power5.

When I shut the 805 off (Main zone and Zone 2) with my Harmony remote the Power5 did not shut down. Well today I found the original 12v trigger cable I was using, installed it and everything operates fine. I checked both cables and found that the one that comes with the Power5 has stereo 1/8" ends. The cable I was using from Ratshak has mono 1/8" ends. So it appears that the problem was with the 805 and that you have to use a cable with mono 1/8" ends. The Power5 appears that it can use either cable but not the 805.

Just thought I would post this so if someone else has the same problem with their Onkyo receiver/Pre-pro they will know what could possibly be the problem. Maybe others have run into this problem but I do not recall reading it in this thread.

Bill
post #528 of 584
I thought my HK had a 12v out. It doesn't. Is there something else I can use? The power 2 does not have a signal sensing option does it?
post #529 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

I thought my HK had a 12v out. It doesn't. Is there something else I can use? The power 2 does not have a signal sensing option does it?

Use one of these: http://www.smarthomeusa.com/Shop/Sma...y/Smart-Strip/

... and save a lot of energy in the process.

The Power 2 uses 20 watts in standby mode.
Along with your other audio equipment, this starts to add up.
post #530 of 584
Here is a link directly to the manufacturer of Smart Strip. I bought one from them when they were first coming to market (1st generation). Still use it and love it.

http://bitsltd.net/ConsumerProducts/index.htm
post #531 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

I thought my HK had a 12v out. It doesn't. Is there something else I can use? The power 2 does not have a signal sensing option does it?

Does your HK have a switched outlet on the back? If it does and you are not using it you can get a wall wart (AC to DC) from Rat Shak that you can fit a 1/8" mono mini plug to.

I did this with my 805 before I added a fan on the top of the 805 which now uses the switched outlet. It worked quite well. Power the receiver off and the switched outlet powers off turning your Power2 off. Power up and your Power2 would turn on.

The Power5 does not have a signal sensing option not sure with the Power2. It would be a nice option though.

Bill
post #532 of 584
I want to say a hearty "thank you" to all who have contributed to this thread, as it has been the major influence in my acquisition of a new NHT Power2.

I have seen the class D light and it is CLEAR.

I've gone from good quality vintage amplification to high-tech hi-fi with an astonishingly small entry fee.

I still use old equipment, but the main amp is new IcePower.

The Power2 is just awesome. I was using an Adcom GFA 535II with a little treble boost and bass cut to get the in-room response right, but as soon as the Power2 was swapped in, it's been direct, passive volume attenuation only ever since. And what sweet clarity it is. I no longer feel like I'm missing much at all with my decidedly old speakers. That is wonderful.

Thanks, AVS. And thanks to ListenUP! for slashing the prices of these amps!
post #533 of 584
for stereo music only, would the power5 have advantage over the power2? (due to extra headroom w/ additional ASP modules)
post #534 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwong View Post

for stereo music only, would the power5 have advantage over the power2? (due to extra headroom w/ additional ASP modules)

The power 2 and power 5 are very "odd" designs. They used 1 500ASP module and 2 500A modules in the power 2. The 500ASP isn't even using it's amplifier circuit, only the power supply. The power 5 uses 2 500ASP's and 3 500A modules. So basically two power supplies for 5 amp circuits. This is a cost saving design yet they added some IMO non useful components as well.

Technically the Power 5 will give you more headroom than a Power 2, but a 2ch 500ASP mono block design would be better and cheaper.

You can't go wrong with the ICE modules tho. They are awesome.
post #535 of 584
You can quibble about the comments in that, and I have below. But the general drift of the comments seems unclear at best ... bottom line to answer the question ... the Power2 will be plenty if someone needs or uses less than a continuous 150 watts per channel or so (and even higher with lower ohm speakers, since the Power2 would drive with more watts) - but if they need more than that, then yes a Power5 could have some advantages, especially at the right price.

But whether many people really would use it in a way that would realize a benefit ... that's seems unlikely - it a cliche around here but whether there's any actual benefit really depends on the speakers you're going to use, as well as your room and your listening habits.

Anyway, the answer seemed not to get covered:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

The power 2 and power 5 are very "odd" designs. They used 1 500ASP module and 2 500A modules in the power 2. The 500ASP isn't even using it's amplifier circuit, only the power supply. The power 5 uses 2 500ASP's and 3 500A modules. So basically two power supplies for 5 amp circuits. This is a cost saving design yet they added some IMO non useful components as well.

Technically the Power 5 will give you more headroom than a Power 2, but a 2ch 500ASP mono block design would be better and cheaper.

You can't go wrong with the ICE modules tho. They are awesome.

Odd is a loaded and IMO unfair word. Unusual would be better. They had some good reasons for doing it the way they did, given their design and cost objectives for the system (it really was designed to fit into a system), and the available modules.

If someone was designing a two channel standalone amp from scratch, they would likely do it differently. All a buyer can do is compare it to the other actual alternatives available for the same capabilities, and evaluate their own preferences and budget.

As to whether 2 x 500ASP monoblocks (or a dual mono design) would be cheaper ... that depends, but seems kind of hypothetical given that people are looking at this at used or clearance pricing - so if you wanted to link to the actual alternatives available today, the comments would be a lot more useful.
post #536 of 584
Ok, "unusual" is fine with me. I recend my useage of the word and quote "odd" This forum should be called "AudioVideoDebateForum.com"

I thought NHT designed the Power 2 as a stand alone amp from scratch. Thats why I tought it as being "unusual" because while the 500A modules are considerbly cheeper to use because of the lack of the power supply. It was "unusal" to not just add a power supply that would have cost less than the 500ASP module AND been able to supply enough current for the 500A modules to reach full rated output at 4Ohms. Thats what Axiom is doing btw.

The question was about a Power 5 vs Power 2 for 2 ch headroom. Technicaly the Power 5 would have more headroom but not because of the extra amp channels, because of the extra power supply. If your running 8 Ohm speakers it doesn't matter, but for 4 Ohm or less you will see an improvement. Is it worth the added cost over a Power 2? Probably not but then again this is avsdforum so someone will disagree.

I love my Power 2 driving 4 Ohm speakers but I am looking for a better low budget ICEpower solution and will let you know if I find something.
post #537 of 584
"It was "unusal" to not just add a power supply" - A lot of people think that the power supply is as important or more important than the amp. That's why people obsess about transformers, SLA batteries, etc. I don't know about that, but it certainly is very important.

"If your running 8 Ohm speakers it doesn't matter, but for 4 Ohm or less you will see an improvement. " I'd think it would be more the other way around. At 4 ohms you get a lot of watts out of the Power2. 250-300 WPC, IIRC.

"I am looking for a better low budget ICEpower solution and will let you know if I find something." I just can't imagine what that could be, given that B&O keeps the prices on the modules up pretty high.

But certainly if someone is willing to pay more they might prefer a straight 2 module amp. For comparison, look at the d-sonic amps.
post #538 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

"It was "unusual" to not just add a power supply" - A lot of people think that the power supply is as important or more important than the amp. That's why people obsess about transformers, SLA batteries, etc. I don't know about that, but it certainly is very important.

"If your running 8 Ohm speakers it doesn't matter, but for 4 Ohm or less you will see an improvement. " I'd think it would be more the other way around. At 4 ohms you get a lot of watts out of the Power2. 250-300 WPC, IIRC.

"I am looking for a better low budget ICEpower solution and will let you know if I find something." I just can't imagine what that could be, given that B&O keeps the prices on the modules up pretty high.

But certainly if someone is willing to pay more they might prefer a straight 2 module amp. For comparison, look at the d-sonic amps.

1) I didn't say a power supply was not important. I said it was less expensive to build a dedicated one vs using another 500ASP module. I find that "unusual" given the end result.

2) The specs on the power 2 are the same at 4 Ohm and at 8 Ohm per the manufacture. Lower Ohm speakers are harder to drive and require a lot of current. The specs on the 500ASP module from B&O are done at 4 Ohms to prove it is a capable amp. That rating is 500W BTW, not 250-300 as you recall on the Power 2. If there was either 2 500ASP (D-sonic, Wyred4sound, etc)modules used OR a dedicated power supply was used (Axiom) then each module would receive full power and I would have 500W going to my speakers right now.

3) I personally don't like the D-Sonic amps. Thank you for the suggestion tho. If you find something with more value please let me know. Hopefully the price will come down over time. It is still a rather new technology tho. It's sad a manufacture has to stop producing a model line just to get a good deal on ICEpower because it's an unbelievable technology.
post #539 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by wm_mongoose View Post

1) I didn't say a power supply was not important. I said it was less expensive to build a dedicated one vs using another 500ASP module. I find that "unusual" given the end result.

2) The specs on the power 2 are the same at 4 Ohm and at 8 Ohm per the manufacture. Lower Ohm speakers are harder to drive and require a lot of current. The specs on the 500ASP module from B&O are done at 4 Ohms to prove it is a capable amp. That rating is 500W BTW, not 250-300 as you recall on the Power 2. If there was either 2 500ASP (D-sonic, Wyred4sound, etc)modules used OR a dedicated power supply was used (Axiom) then each module would receive full power and I would have 500W going to my speakers right now.

3) I personally don't like the D-Sonic amps. Thank you for the suggestion tho. If you find something with more value please let me know. Hopefully the price will come down over time. It is still a rather new technology tho. It's sad a manufacture has to stop producing a model line just to get a good deal on ICEpower because it's an unbelievable technology.

As far as the power supply, keep in mind that the power supply on the module provides an exceptional combination of size and power - at a price. Finding an alternative isn't a slam dunk.

As far as the WPC - yes the specs are the same at 4 or 8 ohms, but that was more a corporate decision about what to present - as discussed in the thread the actual performance is quite different. The limiting factor is the power supply, so you don't get 500 WPC.

I wasn't suggesting the dsonic for you, but to illustrate what a 2 module amp, purpose built as a standalone power amp, would be like. They are not as much smaller as one might think, and of course the pricing is entirely different. There's nothing not to like about the dsonic amps, in terms of performance. Maybe you mean the styling.
post #540 of 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

The limiting factor is the power supply, so you don't get 500 WPC.

My point exactly. I find this to be "unusual" for a design.

Like putting a 4cyl in a Ferrari IMO.

And yes I do not like the style of the D-Sonic amp. I'm sure the sound is great tho.
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