Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 471

Well since you quote me ill respond, I don't think the AVP needs a hardware update now. I think it will get one within 18 months thats not saying the same thing. If you really are considering the AVP+POA vs a 4810 you are saying $2999 vs $15000 and you should look at it from many more sides and reasons to go with the combi.

Most of us got our AVP/POA's more than a year ago and we expect them to last at least 5 years or more. This doesn't mean we expect them to have all the features released within that 5 years. At some point we expect lower models to have new stuff and slowly our units will become obsolete. Its this view and history of denon that makes us believe we will see a hardware update at some point my guess is most would vote _against_ a hardware update this or even next year and that denon waits until some dust settles down on issues like 4k signals, 3D signals and more surround options.

You have to make up your own mind on how you think about this, getting 3 $2500 units every 18 months might also be a valid option but you have to have to think about how you want to act on a 5 or 6 years period most of us did.

Daniel.

This is a question posed and answer given on one of the speaker threads:

"So what do you think of the front height speakers contribution?"

"At first I wasn't too impressed, but after getting some recommendations for source material and slightly adjusting the levels, I'm hooked. When rain is falling, it makes you want to get an umbrella. The scene in Live Free, Die Hard where the car passes above their heads had me ducking. The only thing i find annoying is that when i watch football games, the refs whistle is usually blasted from the heights and it catches me by surprise sometimes. If you're looking on upgrading your setup, then I'd definitely consider installing them."

I definitely will be adding front height speakers to my setup, I would like to get the effect described by the above user.

Having surround speakers high up pointing down give you that actual effect. Rambo has a scene when it rains you feel like to reach out for the umbrella, planes feel like they pass overhead.Signs is another example of how having surrounds placed high up worked well(there is a scene where the aliens are rummaging through the house above them while the family is in the basement) you think they were actually walking inside your roof.

At the end of the day buy the new Denon if you prefer the height speakers, if you know what your doing you can achieve the same results with any receiver or preamp. Honestly I will be keeping mine for quite awhile, im not going to upgrade for height speakers when im achieving the same results already as most are in this thread.

I have a question and comment about the comment below:
Question: Would it not be possible for the AVP to provide front height channels via firmware by offering an option to re-route and reprocess the surround B channels to front height channels? I'm not aware of any DPLIIz or DSZ encoded material, which suggests that these channels would be extracted from standard channels (front mains?) the AVP can process?

Comment: Concerning your question whether you should go with an AVP and hope for a height channel upgrade or the 4810 that has it built in, I would suggest that it depends on what you value more: Music sound quality or the front height channel feature. If your answer is the former, I recommend the AVP. If the latter, the 4810 would be your best choice.

By the way, I agree with Frank concerning duplicating the illusion of soundfield height by using surrounds mounted high. I use Magnepang MMGs (a floor standing speaker) for rear and side surrounds mounted ~ two feet above ground which places the top of their drivers close to the ceiling. As a result I get a very good illusion of soundfield height with movies and music (in surround mode). Having 7 foot tall line source speakers up front doesn't hurt either , but I don't think even that is required to achieve the "height effect" you seek. But again, if the front height channels really matter to you and you don't need the 4810 to double as an audiophile grade music preamp as I do, go for the 4810.

Eric

Indeed my guess is that the AVP has more than enough power and is already able to decode fully 12 channels. Reusing the 2 extra side channels as height or wide channels should be possible. Better question is will denon do it for the 5308 and AVP or will they just wait for a bigger update for this feature i personally don't think they need todo a hardware change to the avp.

Daniel.

Hey Eric, you said "4810 to double as an audiophile grade music preamp." Is it possible to use the 4810 as a preamp for the POA power amp? Would that equal the sound quality of the AVP? Does it make any technical sense to consider that? I know the 4810 doesn't do THX so it's still lacking in some regard vs. the AVP, but it appears to me that it would be a cheaper pre-amp than the AVP, and have the feature (DLPIIz) I desire. And then using the 10 dedicated amps of the POA would present me with a win-win scenario.

I understand Frank's point that you concur with about mounting the front speakers high (and do appreciate you guys sharing that knowledge with me), but for room aesthetics, the front surrrounds will be floor towers that are 38" high that I want to sit on the floor on either side of the custom cabinet being made for the TV and components. Mounting them high on the front wall is not an option in the design. BUT, getting matching bookshelfs and mounting them high would definitely blend in with the total design 'look' that I'm going for, hence the desire for separate front height channels.

To be clear, I said if you do not need the 4810 to function as a audiophile grade preamp that it may be the better choice for you. What I say next is my opinion; it's not anything I can prove short of a matched level comparision of the 4810 and AVP surrounded by reference level equipment (and even then subjectivity would apply). I suspect for two channel music reproduction the AVP will sound better than the 4810 due to build quality differences between the two units for this purpose with or without use of the POA power amp. Put another way, though the POA is a fine amplifier in its own right, it would only reveal the sound quality differences between the 4810 and AVP. Now, could you use the POA with the 4810 and get good results? Sure. Would it sound as good as the AVP for 2 channel music? I don't think so but again, this is nothing more than my opinion. Further, I want to stress that 4810 should sound very good for music. Indeed, I suspect it would satisfy most people. However, I believe that the AVP provides some extra, refinement for music playback. Also note that I'm focusing on differences for music only. I think difference for HT will be much less as a practical matter. In terms of music-only sound quality, the difference between the 4810 and AVP definitely represents the law of diminishing returns at work.


I don't think the lack of THX will be a real detriment in practice. My last flagship prepro (Theta Casablanca) wasn't THX certified nor provided THX surround processing. It was wonderful on HT nonetheless.

As I read your comments, I get the impression that you value DPLIIz and given this, I think you should go with the 4810. You can go with the POA (again a fine amp) or other MC amps, as there are many good ones available today.


I don't Frank or I suggested mounting the front speakers high (I know I didn't mean that). It is my side and rear surround speakers that are mounted high. I certainly understand and agree that it wouldn't make sense in terms of appearance (or potentially performance) to mount your front main speakers high. Again, this suggests that the 4810 is probably the better option for you.

Eric

I did not mean mounting the front high either, as said the side and the rear surrounds that are mounted high that will get you your desired effect.I just finished watching Click and there was a scene that had rain and it was above and around me, it does exactly what the height speakers do.

Regarding the 4810 vs the AVP just look at the build quality between the two as that is also just as important when it delivering its performance. I remember reading an article of a well known Marantz gentlemen who had his own signature series( I forgot his name it was awhile ago I read it) and I always remember him saying the build quality of a product is just as much important of getting the job done.

I believe it to be true, if you look inside the AVP it says it all its impressive and everything inside it has a role. Its a preamp and it built better than most recievers out there.

But I 100% agree with eric I think you should go with the 4810 also as you require those features. Don't get me wrong Im sure its an impressive reciever and it will serve you well but as eric says you don't need to get the POA there is plenty of power amps that are out there that are just as good.

Hai,

As promised i would tell you all if i made some progress on the flash based control your avp/poa/bluray project. Well i guess showing is better than telling so ive made a little video (bad) of the result of 2 days work.

As you can see 2way control is working, also first version of the sources panel is done. Volume control, mute, and 'display area' are done. What is nice (i think) that all is live so any changes done by hand or a remote will be shown in the application without any reload and the feedback is fast.

The whole 'flashfile' is now about 40kb big and can run on any platform that runs flash9.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daniel/ht/denonflash1.wmv

I know it shows very little but the first few days you need to lay down a lot of groundwork.

Tell me what you think,

Daniel.

Frank, sorry for misquoting you, my bad...

Frank, Eric & Daniel,

After going over the sage advice you all have provided, I have decided to go and purchase a 4810 tomorrow. I will also research power amps as well, and I can hopefully find a great quality amp with the same (or more) number of channels(10) & watts per channel(150) for less in price than the Denon POA at $6000 USD. I'm very intrigued with the possibility of using the 4810 as a pre-amp (with it's nine amp channels in reserve).

I can always upgrade in the future as my needs/tastes & as technology changes.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Gentlemen!

Eric thanks for sharing, and man, that's a nice system. Congrats!

Line array's rule

I'd love to hear more about your impressions of the LS9's.

BTW- since you have both line array's (LS9/MMG and dipole's - Maggies) you need to read up on my specially adapted guide for Audyssey for Line-Array/dipoles that I created for us 'big speaker' fans.

Hi Daniel,

First, wow, man great work. Keep this up!

Now, for some feedback and wish list stuff:

Feedback

Great work. But some additional panels would be good for drilling in to more detail.

Wishlist

One of the things that I notice in regular usage is the need for a nice summary of ALL relevant audio settings given current input and source material ‘mode’.

So if playing back something on the DVD-2930, it could be a DVD movie, a DVD-A audio or a regular CD, each would require a different set of surround and Audyssey processing settings for optimum reproduction.
But there is no way on the Denon to tell what the total set of relevant audio processing is.

It looks like you are on the right track, but there are probably a few more details that would be worth displaying.

For instance, you show the main surround mode, that’s great, but there might be some sub-setting for certain modes (like Dolby dyn modes) that should be easy to see at a a glance.
For Audyssey, can you please explain if all variants of the EQ parameters are displayed. That is can I tell what level of Dynamic volume is set, or whether Audysey flat vs normal is engaged?

Great start. PM me if you need a beta tester with opinions

One other thing for you to consider (if you haven't already). Isn't Denon developing a 4xxx series prepro? I haven't followed it closely and don't know if it's out yet, but if it provides the front height channels you want it may be worth a look (unless you need the amp channels of the 4810).

Eric

Yeah, I think it looks like a great addition to their line-up:

Thx, Well i am still trying to find a good model on how todo some of the things you want.

The display will do its best to show what signal is coming in, how we output it and what eq we are applying but we only have 2 lines. So yes ill try to display as much info as i can but it will be tricky.

The lower part gives access to different panels (like all iphone apps). We can have many i guess and i am thinking about having different ways to reach them.

But you did set me thinking.. What if we always return to a 'current' panel. That shows you the current input even better. To switch you either hit the middle of the panel (it will return to its last panel) or select a new panel from the lower part of the screen.

This means you will always have the full screen just to display information (a little nerdy but for us nerds perfect, almost like a screensaver) once you hit it returns to the panel you last used.

What you think, I think my goals are the same as yours i want to know what the AVP (or later the 4010ci or network part) are doing so i don't have to guess what mode i am in, what speakers are active, what audyssey mode i am in etc etc).

Daniel.

Thanks Jonathan! I've seen your rig so a compliment from you is high praise indeed.

I will absolutely take a look at the Audyssey guide for line arrays. I've been using the single plane proximity-around-initial-measure-point (clumsy description I know) method recommended by Mark "giomania" within this thread. Based on review of Audyssey's graph of its proposed EQ, I think it measured the LS9's response pretty well. However, it also produced strange results for two of the four Maggie surrounds.

I posted an opinion of the LS9's here by comparing it against the speakers it ultimately replaced (Magenpan MG1.6s).

Eric

The AVP-CIX looks sweet and exactly what I would need to pair up with a power amp (product pic says it does DPL IIz). I saw the pic that progprog put up (thanks progprog) but after doing a quick look at Denon USA's website and various posts at this forum site and on the Net, there is no definitive date of release for this product. Does someone here know of a release date? And I'm actually looking to make my purchases this week as far as A/V components and speakers, which is why I'm spending my weekend inside and online doing research picking you good folks brains.

Also, I have found NO other manufacturer that makes a comparable power amp to the Denon POA. When I say comparable, I'm looking for a 10 channel amp, 150w or more per channel in 8 ohms, in a compact casement that will fit on a component shelf(fortified since the thing weighs 132 lbs). It seems like Denon has the only product on the market with these specs. I know I can buy other amps and stack them, but I want to keep 'component clutter' to a minimum. Anyone know of another amp like the POA, power and dimension-wise?

My ultimate plan is to create a 2nd A/V setup in my bedroom which is on another floor in my house. It's a large room (12' x 35') with little furniture. So I can use the 4810 as a standalone AVR for that setup when the time comes, and it will have more than enough power to run that 7:1 setup. Hopefully in about 6 - 8 months time when I'm ready to tackle that, Denon will have released a pre pro that has DPL IIz included to pair up with the (looks like my only choice) POA running the two Living room zones.

The only other vendor that comes to mind that has a 10 channel amp anything like the POA is Theta's Dreadnougt III . However, it's a bit less powerful into 8 or 4 ohms and is almost two feet deep!

Eric

Thanks Eric!

I just looked at the Dreadnought. It's an imposing looking piece of hardware. But it has less power than the POA, so POA it is! And the POA is almost 21" deep, so it's not that far behind the Dreadnought in being a space hog. LOL

Note to self: Make sure I give the TV lift cabinet manufacturer the dimensions (and weight) of all equipment purchased before they start the build process. Gotta make sure the cabinet interior is deep enough & shelves strong enough to accommodate all of these components behind closed doors.

And be sure to design lots of ventilation from the get-go. Much easier than trying to retrofit it later.

Yes, the POA appears to make more sense for you. Among other attributes, ergonomics is a definite strength of my Wyred 4 Sound 500X7 amp (17" wide, 16" deep, 8" high, and 57 pounds!).

Yup. I plan on having fans built into the back where every shelf is. Can't have the components overheating. That would not be a good look!

Thanks Seth! There was certainly a lot of trial and error to get my system where it is now but I'm really happy with the results. It's nice to be done...Until the next upgrade!

Eric

I know how it feels to be done, just about there 2 more upgrades which hopefully be completed on Wednesday then I'm officially done.

Hehe, there's no such thing, my friend.

I know I know but this last upgrade is costing quite a bit. My wife doesn't understand why would you pay so much for a lens!!

I think this quote answered one of my questions which was: What two pieces are you waiting for? I'm going to go out on a leap here-is the other item a screen? Is the lens anamorphic? What is the make and model of these items?

Forgive my interrogation but I'm thinking about anamorphic projection for my next abode.

Thanks.

Eric

No problems Eric,
Im upgrading to a Stewart G3 Studio tech 1.3 screen 117" replacing the screen I have already and a schnieder 1.33x lens with a kino linear slider. Hopefully should be installed this Wednesday.

If you need any assistance happy to help in anyway I can