Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 480

Personally, I think using the amps in any receiver with the AVP would be a disservice to the AVP and you'll likely set yourself up to be disappointed with the result (especially if you were previously disappointed with the 5805 with your speakers). The POA is a beast of an amp and shouldn't have any problems with your speakers. If you want to use the amps in the 5805 temporarily while you decide on what amp to go with, there's nothing wrong with doing so, but it's a poor long term solution.

I would not use a receiver amplifier to run any high end pre-pro and certainly not the AVP.

Taking nothing away from the POA which can for sure do the job and look great, the D-Sonic 2500-7 has 3x525 wpc and 4x250 and sounds great. More stable power at less than half the price. There are other similar alternatives to a receiver, including the beauty of a matched pair: AVP-POA. Like I said yesterday, I like the light weight cool running class D amps (of which there are several good choices) but I also think the POA does not get enough notice. It is a great amp in it's own right but is often overshadowed by the stunning AVP.

You guys need to stop saying so many nice things about those Ice amps - I'm very tempted to give one a try. When I bought the POA, I actually wasn't really aware of the Ice options, but lower price, cool running, smaller size, and less weight are all very attractive advantages to them.

I may have to explore whether there's a local dealer for one of these and/or what the return policies are if bought online - curiosity is really killing me . I wouldn't purchase one with the idea of returning it, but I'd want to know what my options are if it isn't at least as good as the POA.

Some brands offer 30-day money back and those that don't probably will deal in this market. There are Class D amps sold by top end dealers, and there are online much less expensive brands that use the same Ice modules. Do some research.

Yes, danielo, I meant to clarify that it was the AVP that I got.

I am appreciating the little things about the unit already. It got rid of a noticeable 60Hz hum that was in my system due to my cable line. Nothing else has changed in my system, except for the AVP. I was going go with a cable filter in order to eliminate the hum, but that is not needed now. Not sure why this unit resolved that issue either.

Anyway, another thing that I love and missed from previous experiences with my Integra 9.9 was an option to turn off the front screen. I had that in the Denon 4308CI before the 9.9, but it was something I always wanted the Integra to do.

Firmware upgrades via ethernet? How I missed them. I did the most recent update last night that took only about 20-25 minutes. No more service center drop offs for simple updates!

Now if only my daughter and wife would finish up with the system so I can listen to some music!

Thanks for all your help, I ordered the POA .I should be getting both the AVP and POA by the end of this month.I hope I can get both of them inside the slim 5 middle atlantic rack. I hope these two would compliment my stunning C3X 1080 projector. Thanks .

K.G.

gsr, the ICE amps are truly something remarkable. I had an Emotiva MPS-2 before owning my D-Sonic M2500-7 amp and it was noticeable improvement. I can't necessarily say the same thing will be the case for the ICEPower compared to the POA, but it will be about 115lbs lighter, smaller physically, and cooler running.

The following is probably more than a bit off topic for this thread, but the AVP is involved in my question.

I've got a HTPC (home theater PC for those who don't follow that forum) in my system that currently has an Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 HDMI sound card that also has a decent analog section (not world class, but decent). Among other things, this sound card is able to bitstream the HD audio formats when used with software that supports it (ArcSoft TMT). I also use the analog inputs of the card combined with Audacity to record analog sources such as my LP's so I can convert them to MP3's or FLAC files for portable use.

The latest ATI video cards (the 5xxx series) also support bitstreaming and would probably be sufficient for all of the digital audio needs on the HTPC once software is released that supports bitstreaming. This would allow me to eliminate the Asus Xonar from my system except for the ability to record analog audio.

So I'm looking into other options for recording my analog sources. One option is to get a Benchmark ADC1 USB which would connect to the PC via USB. But it's pretty pricey ($1795) for something I'd wouldn't use a lot. I haven't found much for other similar options except for dirt cheap stuff that probably isn't very good.

One option has me curious though (and this is where the AVP comes in). What if I used a toslink output from the AVP into the toslink input on the motherboard sound card and used Audacity to capture that? Am I crazy to think that the AVP's analog to digital conversion would be reasonably close to how good the Benchmark would be? Would I run into much in the way of jitter issues going into the Toslink input on the typical motherboard? Thoughts? Obviously I can try it and see how the quality is, but if others have experience with this, I'd appreciate feedback.

Congrats on acquisition of your AVP fellow LS owner!

Eric

I own the POA and I agree that there might be folks taking it off of their list because of the weight. I actually would prefer if they sold a 5 channel POA that weighed less. I would rather have two smaller POAs (light) than the one beast. My son still talks about the two of us getting it into our dedicated HT cabinet (well, he talks about it when he wants some money from me and reminds me of that day. ). The POA does sound fantastic with the AVP. SJ

Well, I have some good news concerning my aforementioned AVP volume issues: It's not due to hearing loss! I had my hearing tested last week and according to my ENT, it's normal for a 40-something, though my average sensitivity to tests tones is down slightly versus a typical 20 year old. My ENT (God bless her) kicked me out and said don't come back until I had a real malidy.

This still doesn't explain why the AVP's master volume dropped .5 DB every time I changed surround mode during a movie but this is no show stopper at present.

Concerning volume for streamed music playback from my NAS, the volume I need for playback is still quite a bit higher than several of you reported, but I've since noticed a different source from the same PC client I use that requires far less volume (typically 7 to 10 db less) than NAS playback: streamed Internet radio. As a result, I suspect my volume issue is related to source output from my PC as opposed to any problem with the AVP.

Again, it's no showstopper so I'll continue to investigate as time permits.

Eric

Unless you did some form of audio modification when you ripped the CDs to the NAS there cannot be any volume adjustment going on except in the AVP. The files (if you have used FLAC or WAV or some other lossless format) are perfect copies of what is on the CD.

You still need to look at AVP settings or perhaps getting the AVP repaired. How about putting a track on a USB thumb drive and seeing how it compares to what you stream from your NAS?

Also I forgot what media streamer you said you run on the NAS? Are there any settings for audio modification on that system that could perhaps be doing DA - AD conversion for whatever reason?

I finally got to listen to the unit for a brief little bit tonight. I still have yet to do the Audyssey calibration, so I listen to 2-channel music in three flavors tonight, stereo, direct, and pure direct. I wanted to compare how stereo and direct sounded compared to my Integra 9.9.

Upon first listen I could immediately tell the difference. The frequency range seemed more full. Bass reproduction is more authoritative while still seeming even more natural than with the 9.9. Stereo separation was even better. Sound imaging was more natural and subtle nuances were broader in the sound field. The sound stage appears more three-dimensional with even more layers of music and sound. Highs were more natural and not as edgy; the 9.9 sounds a bit too digitized at times for my preference. I was even more impressed as the transient noise or lack of noise in the music. It really is an impressive piece of electronics.

Oh well, I am hoping to do the auto-calibration tomorrow after work, but it all depends on what my family has going on. It may have to wait until the weekend.

Here's a couple of pics I took of my stuff now...

Nice looking setup !!, I would keep a eye on the heat levels of the avp, in that setup maybe extra cooling is needed.

Its always good to hear you are already impressed by it, hearing it in your own home is the only way to convince people. I do feel the avp is probably the pre/pro that needs 'tuning' most of us feel audyssey is a big step but all of us agree that getting all the settings matched to your system takes some time (audyssey or not). So don't give up it will take you several weeks to find the balance in your setup. I use the avp+poa in balanced mode and xlr
all the way and one of the first things that impressed me is the total silience the total system now has on zero passages even if the volume is at crazy levels.

Daniel.

While I don't use the POA, I do use a fully balanced XLR setup all the way, and agree, total silence. It's beautiful, yet dangerous. You know it is!

I have to agree with the other guys , i'm runing avp poa set up , balanced and bridged for the 3 front speakers.The absence of noise fainomenal, the dynamics , the fluidity , the clarity, and softness , are in a league of their own, with all the 3 pieces of the a1 family.
Enjoy.

Thanks, danielo! I am definitely going to give audyssey a couple runs through. Fortunately, I've ran audyssey a bunch of times with my Integra and as well as my 4308CI before that, so it'll be a much painful process.

I've read and utilized the audyssey set up recommendations here at AVS and it helped my sound tremendously so I am looking forward to the results with the AVP!

I had planned on posting my frequency responses for comment but after setting up the the frequency analysis gear it quickly became apparent that the AVP was not at all well in fact it was clearly broken

To cut to the chase, my AVP was not working properly with or without Audyssey being activated. The room response curve indicated severe attenuation of mid and high frequency's except when discrete EXT inputs were used on a per channel basis. Since my unit was never tested by me prior to making a firmware update, I concluded that it was unlikely to be a hardware breakdown and decided to perform a full power cycle. Initially this fixed the problem and for several hours everything seemed to be going smoothly. Sadly my AVP reverted to it's fault condition so I contacted my supplier to arrange a replacement. Wednesday evening I decided to try one last thing to try and resolve the problem and decided to perform a full microprocessor reset.

Aside from losing my configuration setup, I'm pleased to say that my AVP has performed faultlessly since and can confirm that the dull boxy sound experience is no longer present and by way of contrast I would if anything say that it sounds much brighter than my Lexicon MC12B did. This is most probably due the Audyssey performing a full frequency EQ versus the Lex's simpler low frequency EQ. Minor tweaks in the high frequency band quickly become noticeable in my system due to all my speakers having ribbon tweeters.

Having spent several days trying to EQ a broken system, I'm now coming to terms with a new sound and the future is looking a little brighter
I actually managed to find time to watch a movie last night and although I do not want to quickly jump to conclusions, I quite like the sound (well al-right it was a great sound).

My present configuration it set up using a six point EQ calibration and then setting my front and center speakers to small with a crossover of 60Hz. Not only does it sound quite nice, my room analyser measure a fairly linear response taking into account the film frequency tweaks made my Audyssey. Audyssey FLAT is pretty much exactly what it say on the tin.

After such a bad initial experience, I now need to build up my confidence but at least my XYL is now happy to keep the beast

Thanks to all for your constructive input.

Chris

I applied no volume adjustment when ripping my CDs to WAV files on the NAS. However, IIRC there is no standard for recording level for CDs. So assuming I never touch the master volume on the AVP and just play different original CDs or ripped WAV versions thereof back, the volume can and does change quite a bit between albums. This should be true for anyone using either of these formats. However, with respect to volume differences between a source CD and a ripped version of it in WAV, as you said there is no difference.

What I was getting at with my last message about source volume is that there is a significant volume difference between WAV playback via WMP11 (using MC7 as a front end) and Internet radio using a WMP applet within IE8 when the volume on both are set to maximum. I always keep WMP11 volume at maximum to ensure I don't risk resolution loss via digital volume attenuation. However, for Internet Radio with the WMP applet (assuming no change to the AVP's volume) I can, and typically do, leave the applet player's gain at ~ 50%. Put another way, if I listened to some WAV files from my NAS with WMP11's gain at maximum at a comfortable listening level, then switched to Internet Radio with it's gain at maximum, its volume would blast me out of the room.

The Windows 7 audio mixer does allow different output levels per application with audio output and I did check this. They are all at maximum (though the mixer does not track, or allow control of the WMP applet within IE8-this has to controlled by the applet itself).


I did check the AVP's settings and my two physical sources are (and I assume always have been) set 0 DB for analog and digital source level. I assume this level is a default, and since I'm using HDMI for audio from both sources (a home built HTPC and Panasonic bluray player), I would think only the digital level would be relevant.

I have to tell you, I would be hesitant to send the AVP in for repair solely based on differences in master volume used by myself and others within this thread for music playback. I could imagine an AVP tech justifiably counter my assertion of a problem by saying there could be many reasons to explain the differences beyond a flaw in the AVP (speaker sensitivity, low source output, room size, amp input sensitivity, etc.). Further, for music playback from my NAS, the AVP provides more than enough gain.

OTOH, the lack of volume for movies via the bluray player is another matter that may ultimately motivate me to send the AVP in for assessment. Based on a couple of movies I've tried so far, it was possible to put the AVP in a condition where it didn't provide enough gain at maximum output. As previously stated, in this role the AVP volume control is exhibiting some strange behavior that an AVP tech would have to admit is abnormal. However, there are two things I need to determine first:
1: Is this behavior consistant between multiple bluray and DVD discs?
2: Can I effectively compensate for the lack of gain from the AVPs master volume control by other means (gain in bluray player and/or increase source gain within the AVP)?

Simply put, I don't want to send my AVP in for repair or exchange unless I have to.

That's a good idea about playback via a USB thumb drive just to see what happens with regard to playback volume.


I run no streamer on the NAS per se. Though my NAS supports DLNA, it simply shares files and folders. I use WMP11 within Windows 7 (RC 7100) as a client to playback WAV files from the NAS. My HTPC is connected to the AVP via HDMI. The AVP detects and processes the WAV stream as 2 channel PCM (16/44 as I configured it within the Windows 7 sound applet). I don't think any AD-DA conversion is occuring between the source content and the AVP-just DA within the AVP, which is what I want.

Eric

Eric: Now that I know what you are doing I think I can see a pattern but it still may not rule out a problem with the AVP too. Essentially when you are using WMP11 and WinAmp you are doing a pre amp with your source, regardless if its coming from the internet, your NAS or a CD. How are you connecting your PC to the AVP? Analog or through the SPDIF? In any case I believe you are doing D-A conversion and then if you are connecting you AVP via the analog channels from a PC soundcard its doing AD DA again. Or if you are connecting via SPDIF the PC is doing DA AD and the AVP is doing DA conversions.

I am not certain and you might want to take this up in other threads exactly what transformations are taking place in the PC depending on which media player you are using. Its not an exact science from what I have observed and can also greatly depend on what drivers you are using and how the windows mixer is set up (in some cases it will force DA AD to occur and other times it will just leave the source alone and send it on).

You might want to wander over to the Home Theater area for more discussions here. And lets not get started on the hi def playback of DTS-HD or DD HD for example. A whole nother kettle of worms.

FYI I have used both my DNLA streamer from my NAS (via ethernet) as well as the WMP in Vista to send the same FLAC files on the NAS to my AVP via SPDIF and I did not remember any notible difference. If you like I could do a test for you of those plus the original CD via HDMI to see what I come up with.

My wife works some nights shifts and comes home at the early hours of the morning and watches some television before heading to bed. When she turns on the system, which is controlled by a Harmony 890, the volume is loud and wakes me up due to the fact that it plays at the last volume setting before it was turned off. She cannot turn down the volume quickly as the 890 takes a couple of minutes to allow you to control the volume. Is there a way to setup the AVP to start with the volume turned off or all the way down when it is turned on? My last pre amp (Krell HTS) did this, but I haven't been able to find a setting that does this with the AVP.

Thanks...

Well, I guess you can add me to the owners club also :-)
Included a picture of my setup.


Deck

btscott, yes there is an option in the volume section of the menu (whever that is) to have it start up at a specific volume.

I set mine to -45dB.

Deckarep, congrats on the purchase!

Welcome Deck and Aetherhole! You both have great-looking setups!

I don't know if you have long ribbon, an array, or just tweeter sized ones, but if they are an array or length of say more than a foot it might be a good idea to use eight measurements and do a couple more measurements close to the prime position at varying heights to compensate a bit for the increased vertical dispersion. (I seem to recall something to that effect when dealing with ribbons in the set up guide.)
I calibrated a pair of Newform Research speakers with my pro kit, the ribbons on those were about 2ft or more, and doing that worked very well. No brightness to speak of.

Oh, and I should add, some of us that have found the AVP to open up a bit and smooth out on the top end after some burn in. I definitely don't want to start a debate on that topic, it's just an observation.

Welcome! You're in for a treat.

Beamer,

It's a bummer to hear that your AVP firmware was acting up but better than having you think all of us AVP fans are crazy!

Enjoy!

Chris, you're making this more complicated than it is. As stated toward the end of my previous post, I play streamed WAV files and listen to some Internet radio with a HTPC connected to the AVP via HDMI (audio and video). There is no DA-AD conversion for my sources: It's DA conversion only using the AVPs DACs.


No need: Playback of any audio content through my HTPC has been fine to date. I may have to increase the gain on my AVP a bit more than others but the bottom line is that the AVP provides more than adequate volume for music playback from my HTPC.

Again, my only issue with the AVP and volume relates to HT playback from my bluray player and with more troubleshooting I can hopefully address it without having to send my AVP in for service.

Eric

Congratulations on your AVP-POA acquistion Deck. You have a very nice setup there!

Eric