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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 504

post #15091 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus2k View Post

Speaking of updates, any news on the latest 13min update posted by Danielo about a week ago? So far it didn't show up on my avp.

This follows Denon's pattern of progressively rolling out firmware changes.

While infuriating at times, it does have an upside, as it limits problems the new firmware might introduce to just a few users rather than the entire installed base.

Regarding on-line vs USB (or other physical media) distribution of firmware:
While one can disagree with Denon on the on-line only firmware distribution, I actually agree with it. As over the long-haul, it ensures the installed base is on known, stable releases.
It also has the huge benefit of providing them with objective data collected from the units in the field about configs, errors, and other information that they can then analyze to improve firmware, product designs, etc.
post #15092 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Yep, lots of room for improvement in the UI's.

Some vendors, Such as Meridian-Sooloos have done a really great job on both the UI's and the audio quality. But one pays a price.

I think DLNA has the best chance of seeing widespread adoption by the CE industry, as it is open standards, has a good bit of manufacturer support and the dev community is coming along on control points and servers.

The Apple ecosystem is another one that will flourish; since it's a vertically integrated solution, it generally wins on the user experience front.
Where it sometimes falls short is in things like support of more open standards (like FLAC), or in delivering ultimate audio quality (unless using bit-perfect transports, but that's hard to do sometimes).

I documented where I think a lot of this is going in this article.


Ill read your link again and PM you maybe , But on the sooloos well what can i say they ask a lot of money $14000 for what is very little hardware. There is value in the service and the meta-info they do but the hardware is like $800 max :

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopo...sort/1/cat/501

you can have many discussions on its value .

I agree on DLNA and itunes eco systems accept for that that you can't reach the best audio on a itunes based setup infact its very easy you have 2 options : wav (very open) or Apple-lossless (not open). It would be nice if they also would support flac since you can't reverse apple-lossless and that creates a lockin but you can also use wav backup and use apple-lossless on your main machines. Not perfect but close. Unless someone proofs me wrong i feel i am getting the same audio-quality as a sooloos.

Daniel.
post #15093 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

This follows Denon's pattern of progressively rolling out firmware changes.

While infuriating at times, it does have an upside, as it limits problems the new firmware might introduce to just a few users rather than the entire installed base.

Regarding on-line vs USB (or other physical media) distribution of firmware:
While one can disagree with Denon on the on-line only firmware distribution, I actually agree with it. As over the long-haul, it ensures the installed base is on known, stable releases.
It also has the huge benefit of providing them with objective data collected from the units in the field about configs, errors, and other information that they can then analyze to improve firmware, product designs, etc.

I agree also many brands demand you to either return to the dealer or even to the maker. Worse case you can fall back to this, if you can't don't dare to update yourself then ask the dealer todo it using its internet connection. Same as before nothing lost compared to many brands.

Daniel.
post #15094 of 25955
Does the AVP support DNLA?
post #15095 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Does the AVP support DNLA?

Yes. Check out page 9.

http://www.usa.denon.com/High_End_Catalog_Lit0611.pdf
post #15096 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsonj View Post

progprog, yes I get internet over the cellular network. I'm in a country area and don't have access any other way.

danielo, I consider my connection very stable. It almost never drops out (maybe 3x over 2 years) Its a 2mbps speed connection, so quite reasonable. And I don't remember the last time I downloaded something that got corrupted during the process.

I'll add that I have had my AVP in at the repairer for 4 months now!! (parts come sea freight ex Japan) after I was updating, and it got half way through and came up with an error.
Its going to be a very lengthy and expensive repair bill, and I don't want it to happen again. Therefore I am trying to ascertain if the problem occurred due to my connection, or if it would have happened regardless.

I bought it secondhand. Although now it is going to cost me the price of a new one, once repaired!! Grrrrr. I haven't used it once either!

4 Months! Wow. I'm sure you will be glad to get your unit back. I was doing an update this weekend and the install failed. I had to turn the unit off (using the hard button) and reset. My heart almost skipped a beat or two because I had an issue with my previous unit (Sunfire) that failed during a firmware update causing me to have to send the unit in to Sunfire be fixed. However, once I started the Denon up again it informed me that it was trying the update again and worked fine after that. I would hope they make things bullet proof if something fails that it recovers. So far it looks like they have managed this well. SJ
post #15097 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Does the AVP support DNLA?

Yep, and it handles commands from control points pretty well.

The internal playback module handles FLAC, MP3 and WAV with excellent quality.

For those asking 'What's DLNA?' Check out this 2 minute video


And for 'How to I stream data to the AVP?' check out this 3 minute video on using Twonky MediaManager to send media to all kinds of players.
The AVP does both pics and music. I assume it does some level of video as well, but I've not played with that.
post #15098 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Ill read your link again and PM you maybe , But on the sooloos well what can i say they ask a lot of money $14000 for what is very little hardware. There is value in the service and the meta-info they do but the hardware is like $800 max :

http://forum.stereophile.com/photopo...sort/1/cat/501

you can have many discussions on its value .

Actually, the audio card alone in that thing is $600 at discount. So it's probably more like $1,000 in parts

But the 'secret sauce' is indeed the software. And as you know, developers don't come cheap and the addressable market is small (less than 10,000 total units, probably less than 5,000), so the cost has to be spread out.

As someone who spent years fighting with his HTPC to deliver top-notch audio, I sure understand the complexities of getting this done right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I agree on DLNA and itunes eco systems accept for that that you can't reach the best audio on a itunes based setup infact its very easy you have 2 options : wav (very open) or Apple-lossless (not open). It would be nice if they also would support flac since you can't reverse apple-lossless and that creates a lockin but you can also use wav backup and use apple-lossless on your main machines. Not perfect but close. Unless someone proofs me wrong i feel i am getting the same audio-quality as a sooloos.

Daniel.

If sticking to Apple, here's my take on how to get absolutely the best quality output into the AVP:

Get an RME Fireface 400 and hookup to the Mac
Connect the Coax SPDIF to the AVP AES/EBU digital input
[optional, but max performance] Open up AVP, find input clocksynch signal (probably on DenonLink interface board) and link up to Fireface SteadyClock output.

Voila: Clock-synched delivery of up to 24/96 audio streams from the Mac.
post #15099 of 25955
Whoohoo!, it only took a decade, but I'm crossing the 1,000 post mark with this entry.

Glad it's on one of my favorite threads on AVS.
post #15100 of 25955
This was posted a while back, but what I'm doing on the Mac side is this:

- Ripping into Apple Lossless
- Disabled Crossfade, Sound Enhancer, Sound Check, and EQ
- Disabled iTunes volume control for remote speakers
- Set iTune volume slider to max

Using Apple's AirTunes, I bitstream (wired ethernet) to a local Apple TV connected to my AVP via HDMI. Audio info on the Denon shows whatever the stream is - 44.1k 2.0 24/96, DTS 5.1 - whatever format I ripped

Since (I thought) jitter is not an issue via HDMI, aren't I achieving the highest quality possible? Or am I back to not understanding this issue...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Actually, the audio card alone in that thing is $600 at discount. So it's probably more like $1,000 in parts

But the 'secret sauce' is indeed the software. And as you know, developers don't come cheap and the addressable market is small (less than 10,000 total units, probably less than 5,000), so the cost has to be spread out.

As someone who spent years fighting with his HTPC to deliver top-notch audio, I sure understand the complexities of getting this done right.





If sticking to Apple, here's my take on how to get absolutely the best quality output into the AVP:

Get an RME Fireface 400 and hookup to the Mac
Connect the Coax SPDIF to the AVP AES/EBU digital input
[optional, but max performance] Open up AVP, find input clocksynch signal (probably on DenonLink interface board) and link up to Fireface SteadyClock output.

Voila: Clock-synched delivery of up to 24/96 audio streams from the Mac.
post #15101 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Whoohoo!, it only took a decade, but I'm crossing the 1,000 post mark with this entry.

Glad it's on one of my favorite threads on AVS.


I got my 1000th yesterday too :-)

About the same timeframe
post #15102 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Actually, the audio card alone in that thing is $600 at discount. So it's probably more like $1,000 in parts

But the 'secret sauce' is indeed the software. And as you know, developers don't come cheap and the addressable market is small (less than 10,000 total units, probably less than 5,000), so the cost has to be spread out.

As someone who spent years fighting with his HTPC to deliver top-notch audio, I sure understand the complexities of getting this done right.

If sticking to Apple, here's my take on how to get absolutely the best quality output into the AVP:

Get an RME Fireface 400 and hookup to the Mac
Connect the Coax SPDIF to the AVP AES/EBU digital input
[optional, but max performance] Open up AVP, find input clocksynch signal (probably on DenonLink interface board) and link up to Fireface SteadyClock output.

Voila: Clock-synched delivery of up to 24/96 audio streams from the Mac.

Yeah i know what developers cost , But any software also has a habit to become cheaper per copy all the way to zero. The amount they ask is just too much i can see between 4000 and 5000 myself for a good 'source' like this.

On the mac, well ehmm i was so happy with the AppleTV that only a few weeks ago the idea popped into my mind of moving to a mac mini (i own 2) because of the DMS thingie i am hacking and only now i am pondering how far you could 'hack' a mini into the perfect source and i must say that your link is bookmarked, also pondering removing the fan and HD and replace them with solidstate. Know of any projects that mod mac mini's ?

Congrats on the 1000e .

Daniel.

PS: guess i am a mega poster with 2500 in only 7 years.
post #15103 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

This was posted a while back, but what I'm doing on the Mac side is this:

- Ripping into Apple Lossless
- Disabled Crossfade, Sound Enhancer, Sound Check, and EQ
- Disabled iTunes volume control for remote speakers
- Set iTune volume slider to max

Using Apple's AirTunes, I bitstream (wired ethernet) to a local Apple TV connected to my AVP via HDMI. Audio info on the Denon shows whatever the stream is - 44.1k 2.0 24/96, DTS 5.1 - whatever format I ripped

Since (I thought) jitter is not an issue via HDMI, aren't I achieving the highest quality possible? Or am I back to not understanding this issue...?

Sorry but if you use non bitstream formats (like DTS) you will get more jitter using HDMI not less. spdif doesn't carry audio and is not 'linked' to anything. On hdmi there is no way to send audio-only so its piggybacked to the video resulting in way higher jitter most of the time.

Daniel.
post #15104 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesculus View Post

Yes. Check out page 9.

http://www.usa.denon.com/High_End_Catalog_Lit0611.pdf

Thanks. You know, looking at the Audio Block Diagram on page 7 of the PDF, I'm not sure the analog inputs have the capability for straight analog bypass. It appears everything is routed to the ADCs.

Anyone have additional information on analog bypass?
post #15105 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Sorry but if you use non bitstream formats (like DTS) you will get more jitter using HDMI not less. spdif doesn't carry audio and is not 'linked' to anything. On hdmi there is no way to send audio-only so its piggybacked to the video resulting in way higher jitter most of the time.

Daniel.

So better to hook up locally via optical?
post #15106 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Thanks. You know, looking at the Audio Block Diagram on page 7 of the PDF, I'm not sure the analog inputs have the capability for straight analog bypass. It appears everything is routed to the ADCs.

Anyone have additional information on analog bypass?

Yeah that diagram is not complete, you can turn on/off the bypass i think audioholics has more schema's. You notice that ADC is not involved when AL24 and ADVANCED lights go out you need todo that in different ways for 2 channel and multichannel.

Daniel.
post #15107 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So better to hook up locally via optical?

Without getting into the 'jitter','reclock' and other 'can you hear it' discussions the answer is yes. I use optical out instead of hdmi because the basic jitter on hdmi will be higher because of the video syncing (at least on denon).

Daniel.
post #15108 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Without getting into the 'jitter','reclock' and other 'can you hear it' discussions the answer is yes. I use optical out instead of hdmi because the basic jitter on hdmi will be higher because of the video syncing (at least on denon).

Daniel.

Yep, this is why the new universal players (4010 & A1UD) have DenonLink4, to clock-synch HDMI delivered LPCM audio streams.

So if the source is non-DL4 (like the AppleTV), it's probably better to use SPDIF for the audio.

Ideally, HDMI specs would integrate a high-quality clock exchange. But that's a pipe dream for now.

One of the reasons I totally dig Denon for their hyper-clean universal transport integration via both HDMI and DL4.
post #15109 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Thanks. You know, looking at the Audio Block Diagram on page 7 of the PDF, I'm not sure the analog inputs have the capability for straight analog bypass. It appears everything is routed to the ADCs.

Anyone have additional information on analog bypass?

I believe it does indeed have a clean analog bypass mode.

The question though is why ever use it?

Room correction improves the sound to such a large extent I can hardly image listening to my rig again with it off. And I have a custom, ideally sized, hyper-treated room.

Sort of like turning off all the ABS and anti-skid on a modern sports car. It might feel like fun, right up until you hit something
post #15110 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Yeah that diagram is not complete, you can turn on/off the bypass i think audioholics has more schema's. You notice that ADC is not involved when AL24 and ADVANCED lights go out you need todo that in different ways for 2 channel and multichannel.

Daniel.

Interesting, and good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

I believe it does indeed have a clean analog bypass mode.

The question though is why ever use it?

Room correction improves the sound to such a large extent I can hardly image listening to my rig again with it off. And I have a custom, ideally sized, hyper-treated room.

Sort of like turning off all the ABS and anti-skid on a modern sports car. It might feel like fun, right up until you hit something

Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I can't stand the Audyssey MultiEQ XT in my AVR-4806CI. Makes everything sound echo-y and unnatural. I do, however, us room EQ for my sub (SVS AS-EQ1).
post #15111 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesculus View Post

I got my 1000th yesterday too :-)

About the same timeframe

Cool, but you took half as long to do it.

congrats.
post #15112 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Cool, but you took half as long to do it.

congrats.

Your right. It just seemed like a decade :-)
post #15113 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

And on the topic of FLAC and DLNA playback on our AVP's, you all need to go check out the latest versions of the Linn software:

http://oss.linn.co.uk/trac

The Kinsky Control Point is pretty slick. It allows you to manage what's playing on your AVP without putting up with the sub-par AVP UI.

JonFo,

This looks like it will work great. I hope I can get it going because the interface seems to work much better than the AVPs.

I downloaded the app, and am able for the app to see my Music Server and all the Music on it. I could not get it to see the AVP though.

Under Rooms, it lists my two Sonos receivers, and it lists Network Audio. When I select Network Audio, then go to the other dropdown box, it shows a listing for UpnpAV (Network Audio). What do I need to do in the AVP to get it to be seen by the Kinsky app?

The AVP is on the network. I can go to my music server and pull/play files on the AVP. I just can't get the Music server to see the AVP so I an push files to it.

Any help would be appreciated.
post #15114 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Interesting, and good to know.



Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I can't stand the Audyssey MultiEQ XT in my AVR-4806CI. Makes everything sound echo-y and unnatural. I do, however, us room EQ for my sub (SVS AS-EQ1).

Well our general advice is to really try to get it to work before you turn it off on a avp. But even if you turn it off it might be better todo adc/dac since there are more good effects like upsampling/smoothing to 192khz/24bit. I don't think we have one member of the avp owners group that really is able to hear the difference between the 2 modes in a negative way (doing 1 extra adc/dac).

But at least now you know its possible on a avp not sure if it was possible on the 4806. Also the avp has a 100% balanced xlr analog input that you can keep analog if you want upto your speakers .

I also use eq even on pure-direct mode (yes thats also possible).

Daniel.
post #15115 of 25955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Yep, and it handles commands from control points pretty well.

The internal playback module handles FLAC, MP3 and WAV with excellent quality.

For those asking 'What's DLNA?' Check out this 2 minute video


And for 'How to I stream data to the AVP?' check out this 3 minute video on using Twonky MediaManager to send media to all kinds of players.
The AVP does both pics and music. I assume it does some level of video as well, but I've not played with that.

Hi Jonathan! First off very cool on your 1,000th post being here on our thread.

This TwonkyMedia Manager has really piqued my interest. I never had a desire to look for other options as I was always very happy using WMP 11 to stream music to my AVP. But now that I have a new PC running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit, I can no longer use WMP 11 as Windows 7 comes with WMP 12 and 11 is no longer compatible. I have found WMP 12 to be a major PIA!

Getting the whole streaming thing set up and working was a snap, but streaming the types of files I wanted the AVP to play has been a real problem. For whatever reason when I stream WAV files, the AVP is receiving them as a totally different file type. Streamed WAV ends up as MP3! For some weird reason it looks like WMP 12 is transcoding the WAV file to MP3. I just can't understand why.

I have asked on various forums for help, but no one seems to know the answer. I don't want to be listening to my favorite WAV files as MP3's! So does TwonkyMedia Manager work similarly to WMP 11? To get it to let my music get streamed to my AVP do I only need to download the software and use the Media Manager kind of like I would with WMP?

And how simple is it to get set up and streaming with this thing? If it's far superior to WMP 12 and easy to use, I will change over in a heart beat!


Seth
post #15116 of 25955
I'm getting more confused..,Do the built-in D/A convertors of the AVP do reclocking at all, or better, than a quality external DAC (looking at the Benchmark DAC1 for example). If the AVP does, is it only applicable to coax or SPIF signal but not HDMI. The commentary earlier about high jitter on PCM audio via HDMI is making me rethink how the AVP works, and whether investing a external DAC for my Mac Mini or ATV playing Apple Lossless is sensible.

Thanks
post #15117 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Interesting, and good to know.



Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I can't stand the Audyssey MultiEQ XT in my AVR-4806CI. Makes everything sound echo-y and unnatural. I do, however, us room EQ for my sub (SVS AS-EQ1).

Well that certainly is contrary to what I and most others here have experienced with Audyssey. I used to own the next model down from yours, the 4306, and that's what turned me on to Audyssey on the first place.

Generally we here have found that those who don't like Audyssey fall into two categories; the most common being those that didn't quite get the measurement procedure right, and for those we refer them to giomania's excellent Audyssey Set up Guide linked in the Audyssey thread.
The second is those that are used to the sound of a "bad" room, generally one where the bass is bloated, or over-cooked and the typical reaction here is to complain that the bass is anemic. The solution for these folks, (assuming that the above has been followed) is to live with it for a month and then go back and see how their system sounds without it.

Frankly, yours is the first time I've heard of Audyssey described as "echo-y and unnatural" so I'd have to assume you fall into the first category.
post #15118 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Well that certainly is contrary to what I and most others here have experienced with Audyssey. I used to own the next model down from yours, the 4306, and that's what turned me on to Audyssey on the first place.

Generally we here have found that those who don't like Audyssey fall into two categories; the most common being those that didn't quite get the measurement procedure right, and for those we refer them to giomania's excellent Audyssey Set up Guide linked in the Audyssey thread.
The second is those that are used to the sound of a "bad" room, generally one where the bass is bloated, or over-cooked and the typical reaction here is to complain that the bass is anemic. The solution for these folks, (assuming that the above has been followed) is to live with it for a month and then go back and see how their system sounds without it.

Frankly, yours is the first time I've heard of Audyssey described as "echo-y and unnatural" so I'd have to assume you fall into the first category.

"echo-y and unnatural" = bad calibration. The mike is bad, the software is corrupted or the ear is broken. Sorry but Audyssey should never produce such an effect. Nobody doubts what the listener is hearing but it's not right.
post #15119 of 25955
Hi all,
when switching inputs on my avp it stores last used Audyssey eq mode but does not switch dynamic eq on or off according to last used,its a pain as i want it on for tv & bluray then off when i select cd input,which means i have to haul my fat backside over to my rack & switch it manually.

Do i need to update my firmware or is dynamic eq a global setting only

Thanks
jason
post #15120 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason shep View Post

Hi all,
when switching inputs on my avp it stores last used Audyssey eq mode but does not switch dynamic eq on or off according to last used,its a pain as i want it on for tv & bluray then off when i select cd input,which means i have to haul my fat backside over to my rack & switch it manually.

Do i need to update my firmware or is dynamic eq a global setting only

Thanks
jason

Not sure if and when this changed but i just tested it and for me it does remember per input.

Daniel.
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