Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 583

Guys experimenting with the avps scaler, is anyone using it ?

And if so at what settings ?

I have denon 4010 and TiVo as source. And pio kuro 50M as display. Curious If using the scaler what migr be best settings. Keen to have a play. Previously have just used video convert on the avp in off setting.

Probably means al24 vs al32 ?

Another one not interested in.

Just audyssey xt32, rest not something that bothered about.

Oh ok! Thank Al

AL32 is the followup of AL24 , Unlike AL24 its 32 bits. In fact it makes sense since if you make the whole path inside a device 32bits (like the A1UD) you also have to upscale to 32 bits not 24 bits. So AL32 is a given if you get a 32bits path. i doubt there could be a upgrade to 32bits without massive hardware updates to the AVP.

Daniel.

Thanks for the explanation Daniel. What is the advantage 32bit has and could you hear the difference?

I have a buddy who wants to buy seperates...

he likes the POA but wont get the AVP simply because it isnt HDMI 1.4..

I have suggested the new Denon 4311 CI just released because it has pre-outs and he can bypass the 4311 amps and use the POA...

he's going 7.1 and wants to bi-amp the 3 front speakers..

any reason why the 4311/POA wouldnt be a great combo?

Sorry for being cryptic but AL32 vs AL24 is what i meant--good guess Alebonau. I sincerely do not think you could hear a difference which is why I could care less. I don't want to start the old bit resolution argument again, and I am glad that we don't spend much time here on jitter either. But just as a reminder, 16 bits is a resolution of 1 in 65536 and a dynamic range of 96dB (basic CD quality). 24 bits gives a resolution of 1 in 16,777,216 and a theoretical dynamic range of 144dB that most electronic circuitry cannot match. If you really think we need better than 24 bits, go for it. It's kind of like a horse-power race for the manufacturers who need new features to sell every year. And, in fairness, as time goes on the cost of circuitry comes down and capability goes up, so manufacturers can in fact offer 32 bit resolution for the same price they used 24 just a few years ago.

As noted above, it's a moot point if the internals are not 32 bit too.

Would I buy the AVP without HDMI 1.4 today? That's a tougher question. I think yes on performance alone but going with the 4311/POA combination will be no slouch either. I just hate to pay for amps that are never used, nonetheless I can't imagine that this won't be very good indeed. At the series 4000 level and above, Denon products are going to sound more and more alike as they get closer and closer to ideal reproduction. And the feature sets not only converge but the newer model (4311 in this case) has the more recent features. So I would be comfortable buying this combo. It should be very very good with the POA.

I would point out that only Anthem (Statement D2V) has really lived up to their commitment to provide an upgrade path for older units. Some upgrades have been very costly but always less than buying a new one. Anthem is just about the only major player who has made good on upgrade paths as far as i know. I stopped reading the Anthem threads when I bought the AVP and I don't know how the D2V has worked out but it is a clear alternative to the AVP or the 4311/POA. I have listened to Anthem and tried to compare it and came to the conclusion it is very good. Worth a listen. Of course Anthem was very slow indeed to add DVI and HDMI. They are cautious good engineers and don't jump on every fad, and being smaller they can't produce 10 new models every year like Denon. Just a thought.

Agreed on the 24 vs 32 bits that was the goal of my comment and indeed the whole path (from adc's,dsp, fpga's and dacs should be 32 bits as well) seem to much work for a module update in the avp.

But i disagree on denon's upgrade steps they have in fact released small/bigger hardware updates for their past flagships.

Also again i would not even mind (and agree) if denon doesn't update the unit now simply because there is not enough need for it but what i do think is needed is some feedback and roadmap info so we know where the A1 line is going.

The reason is simple, most of us users go like 'do we need hdmi 1.4' -> 'no not needed yet' -> 'would be advice a new user now to get the avp' -> 'well got it in 2008 it was a no brainer then, but now its a little tricky'.

Daniel.

Where Denon has it over others is that the AVP is online and therefore has instantly updatable firmware and software. Although not without challenges for some of us, this does give Denon a clear upgrade path for non-circuit dependent features. Score one for Denon.

And yes they have offered hardware upgrades n the past as well. I was not being critical of Denon in particular, although I do think Anthem has shown more dogged commitment to an upgrade path. I think a lot of manufacturers may mean to offer upgrades when they promise that you are future proof if you buy their goods and then the game changes so dramatically that they cannot upgrade the old unit in any reasonable or cost-effective way. Are we there with the AVP? It remains to be seen doesn't it?

Whether we all need HDMI 1.4 or not in the AVP, from a competitive perspective Denon clearly does. We have just seen a potential buyer move on because the AVP is beginning to age with respect to rapidly changing formats like HDMI. I hate saying this because I loathe HMDI. One major motive for the HDMI consortium has to have been the kind of planned obsolescence we are talking about so that manufacturers sell new goods. They would counter that is unfair, what they are giving us is cutting edge connectivity and the cutting edge changes constantly. Whichever is true Danielo is right, Denon has a problem with updating the AVP.

They can solve this problem in at least three ways:1) leave the AVP alone and live on its reputation, 2) develop an upgrade for all existing and new AVPs, or 3) make a new version and leave us in the dust. Only time will tell which it will be. But just remember, this will be a business decision.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know how many AVPs have been sold? Anybody have any idea?

I'll be honest....I have a hard time understanding this entire argument. I can't think of any product I've ever bought....AV components, TVs, cars, refrigerators, cell phones....you name it....where the manufacturer forecasts information that might discourage people from buying their current models. Maybe a redesign coming (or not coming) in a few months (hello Apple!). Or maybe the product line being dropped completely (thanks, Pioneer, from all the folks who bought a Kuro in early Feb 2009!). It just defies marketing logic to expect them to depress their own sales by hinting that customers should wait. The biggest clue you generally see is a price reduction, and even then you're often left to draw your own conclusions.

Everything gradually becomes dated and obsolete. If there's a computer chip in it anywhere, that process is accelerated. There's not a single feature the AVP doesn't have that I feel I need right now. AL32? New Audyssey algorithms? New matrixed channels up, down, and sideways? HDMI 1.4? ...so far, all that stuff seems like, as AudioBear put it, a horse-power race. Who has the most bullet points on their brochure. I don't believe a single one of those features would add anything to my system. Eventually, the AVP will be lacking something I do really want, and it'll be time to ogle the new stuff. But the last thing I'll expect, when the time comes, is for Denon to try and find ways to discourage me from spending my money.

I don't mean to offend anyone here who is expecting/demanding more consideration from Denon. I understand why you want it, and I'd like it too. But maybe it's just an American thing, where consumer protections are fairly scant and we're pretty used to getting screwed over. I'm used to manufacturers caring about me before they get my money. Afterwards? Not so much.

progprog,

if one were to make an analogy with automobiles where there can be a new model with a new wrinkle every year, what we usually say is "darn, I wish I had waited" but we don't blame the manufacturer. As you say, everything we buy that has chips in it goes obsolete pretty fast these days. Moore's Law predicts we be able to double our speed every 18 months or so, so when we buy a computer we know it's just about outmoded when we unwrap it.

If there is a difference here it is that the manufacturer has stated that there is an upgrade possibility and some even say "future proof." Most of us know better than to believe that by now.

We are both lucky that we don't have upgraditis and don't have to have every new bell and whistle that comes along. That said, I think like I said earlier, it's really Denon that has the problem. It is a testament to how well designed the AVP was that it still is about as good as pre-pros get but the lack of a few largely irrelevant features is probably going to cause them to loose sales. That's really their problem. What they decide to do may or may not benefit current owners. One way or the other I just don't care and plan on keeping the AVP a lot longer.

I would say a 11.x plug update for the avp will be on the cards and a plug layout change awell..

though only time will tell if we will see an avp update anytime soon..

Why is my AVP so hard to reach via IP connection? It seems so flaky, and now I can no longer connect. My entire path is wired, and I'm trying to access it via http://192.168.1.xxx/index.asp as well as just the IP.

I've rebooted the AVP via the small power button, rebooted my switch, tried a different PC, all to no avail.

EDIT: nevermind, I had an IP/DHCP mismatch.

Hypothetically, lets say the AVP gets the 32 bit upgrade. Keeping in mind that everything in the path should also be 32 bits. However, bitstreaming from my player shouldn't matter. Right? Since it's basically just sending the digital signal to the AVP for "processing." So instead of 24 bits (now) the AVP will be processing the unaltered bitstreamed signal at 32 bits.

Like a few others, I have no desire for HDMI 1.4, xt32, etc. In my old age, I've finally sent the upgraditus bug packing and I'm enjoying what I have... for now.

pity they don't goto 128bit chips...

Hate when that happens...

(Been there, done that)

eric

I don't think there is much flexibility for the video chain in the AVP, unfortunately. The chip has lots of possibilities that the firmware doesn't make available to us. Having said that, I think it does a pretty reasonable job. I think my DVDO might have done a better job of 720p->1080p conversion. It might have done a better job with my DirecTV (overly compressed) 480i->1080p, but now most of the things I want to watch on DirecTV are broadcast HD (although still somewhat too compressed.)

On the other hand, my DVDO would freeze up on format changes, complicate lip sync, and cause endless frustration waiting for promised feature updates that never arrived...

eric

Thanks Eric, not done much with it to date so thought will. Yeah can understand the woes of a dvdo, where something like the avps rudimentary scaler probably got some advantage.

Ps just trying it found one quirk, it seems to down sample bd material from the 4010 from 12 bit to 10 bit, no matter what I try. Doesn't seem way around that.

Not sure whether to use A to H, or A to H and H to H options. Went for the latter. Left everything else to auto which means upscaling everything to 1080p.

TiVo signal it doesn't down sample so it's 8 bit to 8 bit.

My thought on this is that denon is not one to sit still. All to evident with their flurry or releases that keeps them running with the pack.

What I think is happening is that denon is working furiously to update the avp. They will have an update out I have no doubt. I think they're likely taking their time, like they did In the release of the avp in itself. When it does come it will work like ours has without issue and bugs faultlessly taking on all can throw at it. Their challenge ofcourse is what to do with existing owners, no doubt they will see how much they can offer at retro upgrades. But have to keep in mind, business is business at the end of it. They're hardly going to send themselves broke on the back of some old customers that are not likely to then buy the new piece. Also worth keeping in mind even an updated unit if the cost to excessive its not something they might do.

Look at the end of it, I didn't buy my unit here thinking it was going to be kept at the forefront for ever and day with upgrades and updates from denon. That would be just not feasible or fair to expect.

Not to say wouldn't be more than pleased if they did offer an upgrade to bring unto date, and that's where I think as customers of theirs important to let them know what is of value to us and see as important. Nothing lost. And look in the mean time can keep enjoying what is a fine piece and let it keep doing a wonderful job in the system

The AVP's scaler is anything but rudimentary, IMO. In fact, the Realta is still pretty top-notch. (Though, as noted, Denon hamstrings it a bit by not making all its features available.) I just don't use it because video components have such good on-board VP these days....I set all my various players to output fixed 1080 and just pass it through the AVP. The only exception is the Tivo, which gives occasional hiccups when scaling 720p to 1080i. But I'd rather put up with that minor annoyance than have to process all my TV watching through the AVP. (Most of the time, I don't use surround for TV and the AVP isn't even on.)

To be honest I just only want the X32 upgrade, I don't think anyone here asked or even cared about the AL32 bit upgrade, let alone I did not even know what it was until it was explained to me.

It's all good, homey. I wasn't signaling you out. I was just curious if one had a pre/pro that was say, 32 bits, and a source that was a lesser, let's say 24 bits, and you bitstreamed, would you get the benefit of the 32 bits? Don't want to argue 32 vs 24. Just want to know if the bitstreamed signal from a 24 bit device will get the full 32 bit love.

Thanks prog, I only meant rudimentary in that it's a bit of a freebie for us, unlike say having a fully fledged external scaler. But yeah keen to explore what its capabilities are.

What do you have the avp set on to pass through the avp. Presume you mean video convert to OFF. Just confirming what others might be doing vs what I am. I too have a tiro. Why setting do you have your TiVo so that it is not scaling 720p to 1080i. Do you mean leaving the TiVo on native. Is how I have it running. With my previous panel I used to set the TiVo on 1080i but since getting the kuro, just have it on native output.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear....I just meant that I have the AVP's VIDEO CONVERT turned off for all sources.

I have the TiVo set to fixed 1080i output because I can't stand all the flickering, etc., that the Kuro goes through when adjusting to resolution changes. (I was SO hoping the new TiVo Premier would be able to upscale to 1080p, but no such luck. Seems like a huge failing on their part. ) Fixed 1080i causes hiccups with 720p signals as an artifact of the double-processing....the Tivo interlaces, then the Kuro de-interlaces.

Thanks prog, i too have seen the odd interlace related artifact with the tivo and my kuro. Not sure have found a happy medium. My avp is with video convert off as well. I found a setting called text optimization on the kuro that sorts out scrolling text. But yeah will experiment between native and fixed 1080i on the tiro.

I haven't had my kuro prof calibrated as yet, just bad timing when ever the calibrator comes around my part of the world. Not sure even this year ! Just trying to do my best in the mean time

Ps am using advance on the kuros film mode, but at times wonder about standard.

Ok let me reverse it and tell you why i think they should have more involvement with the owners. Its a highend thing, most of the highend companies can't STOP talking to clients and most of the time don't deliver. Denon delivered in spades on the A1 line and i personally think it would nice if they open up a little more. Its nothing new for them as already pointed out they have been many times on these forums talking about products.

Also i don't demand anything, just stating their silence is starting to cost them sales or at least make people who order a avp now doubting if its a smart step.

Last thing compared to all the other pre/pro's out and what happened in that the >5k space the last 3 years denon has already already won and i will be perfectly happy with the call i made start of 2008. With some work arounds the avp as it is today can reside in my setup for several more years and become the longest run i had with a device of this type.

Compare it to a good normal shop you goto and while you are perfectly happy with their products its considered normal for the sellers to ask you how you have been, how the products have been doing and chat a little about their upcoming things no ? This is part of building a relationship with your clients (something that is often abused by other highend brands).

Daniel.

Not sure if you mean this but unaltered?. As far as i know the way the avp does it is different. All digital content is moved to 24bits/192khz before it continues the rest of the path inside the avp. So unaltered normally doesn't happen (unless you take several steps to turn AL24 off) so the only logic for denon to move to 32 bits is so they can claim 32 bits dacs something we are seeing more and more on other brands (and even denon). If 16,20,24 bits signals get any better when upscaled to 24/192 or 32/192 and anyone in the world can hear the difference between Al24 and Al32 is a whole new question. But again i doubt they will change it. If a hardware update is coming the only 2 areas that make sense to me are :

new video board (same as 5308) 2 models in one go, means hdmi 1.4a, 3d and all the other 'pr' words they need 2010/2011.

ausyssey upgrade i think the 3 dsp's should be able to handle XT32. Maybe also some of the highchannel stuff.

Daniel.

At the end of the day wether they do anything or not Im still keeping my AVP. It would be nice as they did with my A1XVA but I believe this unit will have too keep my HT running still for the next 5 years. I spent to much too throw it away ( I guess we all did really ).

You have to figure the most likely upgrade they will sell us an XT32 upgrade for a couple of hundred dollars. Since the claim is that is uses less computing power and it's software based, you would think it's a no-brainer. Audyssey has to be delivering it as plug-in software to AVR makers. It also is one of the few upgrades we talk about that would make a difference in all of our systems. I'd buy it even though I like the way the calibration is set now on my system. I think we all would. Denon? Are you listening?

Well I've noticed that Denon Jeff was on AVS on the 24th of this month. When I sent him a PM I noticed his last active date. Hoping he will reply!

The other thing is they could be all under strict secrecy until the anniversary date.