AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 587

post #17581 of 25153
9/4/10 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

Maybe using a receiver as an amp isn't the worst thing you can do, but it really isn't a good isea. All the caveats you describe would be necessary, of course, but it's still not functioning as just an amp the way the AVP "expects" it to. Even if you could elimate all other tone controls, the signal is still going through that receiver's volume control circuitry. Running Audyssey to try and optimize this situation seems almost analogous to calibrating a display panel with a sheet of tinted glass in front of it....the whole process is handicapped from the get-go and you can never completely compensate for that glass that's coloring the picture.

@grassy: I think Daniel had a great idea. If you could get a dealer to let you demo an amp or two at home with your AVP, I think you'd be very impressed with how well it works, and all these odd channel level issues would be a thing of the past. Your only problem then would be deciding which amp to buy...and those are the fun kinds of problems to have!

Yea it sounds good to me, i would have to get a new amp which i have been saving for for some time. Then the pio can go in the lounge room and i can use it as a reciever again. In the theatre room i am planning on running the pre with the poa. I also understand that there are better ways to do things, but this is all i have at the moment. All of my experiences have been soley by comunication over the phone as i live a long way from the company that sold this to me.There is really no professionals around me in this field, so its all been trial and error. The right amp will definately make all the difference, even the wife agrees This whole thing has been a great excuse to get this amp.
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #17582 of 25153
9/4/10 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post

Good question, the pioneer is my amp as it is also intergrated so i am using the amps pre outs and running it in 8 channel multichannel. Using same cables as the a1.

using the pio as a power amp could be interfering with things. As others have suggested its never a clear path if using the pre-ins on an avr, with still most its pre amps electronics still in play.

look since were thinking of updating power amps perhaps nows the time. if cant make the big jump to the POA just yet, perhaps worth grabbing a decent multi channel amp. tends to be some in the $2k range both new and second hand that likely be a better bet than the built in power amp of the pio avr. can always trade this if going the path of the poa. or sell second hand. if buy the amp second hand and sell second hand dont think you'll loose much.

ps did you pick up yoru avp from CAV, they have a few amps in their clearance and bargain bins. both an arcam and an audiolab
http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/?q=node/view/7

also audio trends have both a rotel 1077 and a 1565 at pretty good pricing
http://www.audiotrends.com.au/docume...r_2010_doc.pdf

cleff hifi has also the new elektraHD which would likely be a pretty good way to bide some time
http://clefhifi.com.au/catalog/produ...products_id=70
Reply
Reply
post #17583 of 25153
9/4/10 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

using the pio as a power amp could be interfering with things. As others have suggested its never a clear path if using the pre-ins on an avr, with still most its pre amps electronics still in play.

look since were thinking of updating power amps perhaps nows the time. if cant make the big jump to the POA just yet, perhaps worth grabbing a decent multi channel amp. tends to be some in the $2k range both new and second hand that likely be a better bet than the built in power amp of the pio avr. can always trade this if going the path of the poa. or sell second hand. if buy the amp second hand and sell second hand dont think you'll loose much.

ps did you pick up yoru avp from CAV, they have a few amps in their clearance and bargain bins. both an arcam and an audiolab
http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/?q=node/view/7

also audio trends have both a rotel 1077 and a 1565 at pretty good pricing
http://www.audiotrends.com.au/docume...r_2010_doc.pdf

cleff hifi has also the new elektraHD which would likely be a pretty good way to bide some time
http://clefhifi.com.au/catalog/produ...products_id=70

Al, thanks for the links. Yes i did buy from CAV in melbourne and they have been very helpful, but i have limited knowelege I will post a pic on how i have hooked everything up so you guys can see. Just wait a sec and i will take a couple of pics.Regards Grassy
Reply
Reply
post #17584 of 25153
9/4/10 at 10:03pm
OK here are a few pics this is how i have hooked them up. Note that the projector goes straight to the "monitor 1 out" on the pre and the ps3 being my dvd player at the moment goes to the "HDMI dvd". All my speakers are "Bi Wired"(which is not showing).And my sub goes from "sub to AVP Direct" not into the pioneer. I will be getting the pioneers "mulichannel inputs" checked as soon as possible as i feel that it is them that is down. It seems to me that i am using the "power amp in" for my "mains L & R". Sorry about the confusion, i probably got muddled up on what i was talking about due to the fact that it has been a confusing process having not known what i was looking for.So my apologies to the people trying to help. I hope these pics are good enough as i could not get to close as the camera went out of focus. Regards Grassy


Reply
Reply
post #17585 of 25153
9/4/10 at 10:37pm
Why do you even have anything at all hooked up to the Pioneers pre-outs??????


It looks like you have the main L&R plus your center channel, hooked up to the Pioneers pre-outs, which is wrong. But yet correctly have the L&R sides and back surrounds plus up to the Pioneer multi-channel analog inputs. Everything (L&R mains, center channel, L&R side surrounds and L&R back surrounds) from the AVP's outputs should ALL go to the Pioneer's multichannel analog inputs!

What the pictures show me, is that you should not have any sound at all from your L&R mains or your center channel, because they are hooked up wrong to the Pioneers pr-outs. And if you do have sound from them with the way those pictures show the connections, than you really have everything totally wired wrong!


You mentioned before you were bi-amping speakers, how just exactly are you doing that? Because I have a strong feeling that you are doing it wrong for the set-up you are trying to use with the AVP feeding a Pioneer receiver in place of a dedicated power amp, and that is the main thing that causing your problems.
Reply
Reply
post #17586 of 25153
9/4/10 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Why do you even have anything at all hooked up to the Pioneers pre-outs??????


It looks like you have the main L&R plus your center channel, hooked up to the Pioneers pre-outs, which is wrong. But yet correctly have the L&R sides and back surrounds plus up to the Pioneer multi-channel analog inputs. Everything (L&R mains, center channel, L&R side surrounds and L&R back surrounds) from the AVP's outputs should ALL go to the Pioneer's multichannel analog inputs!

What the pictures show me, is that you should not have any sound at all from your L&R mains or your center channel, because they are hooked up wrong to the Pioneers pr-outs. And if you do have sound from them with the way those pictures show the connections, than you really have everything totally wired wrong!


You mentioned before you were bi-amping speakers, how just exactly are you doing that? Because I have a strong feeling that you are doing it wrong for the set-up you are trying to use with the AVP feeding a Pioneer receiver in place of a dedicated power amp, and that is the main thing that causing your problems.

mmm i dont remember mentioning bi amping, bi wiring maybe anyway,the only way i could get a Left and right mains signal was having it coming through the" power amp in" which shows in the photo. The multi channel in put does not seem to be working so i had to run it through the power amp in left and right.
Reply
Reply
post #17587 of 25153
9/4/10 at 11:30pm
OK, bi-wiring then, I remembered seeing you mention, "bi" something I just did not go back to check to make sure if it was bi-amp or bi-wire. Agree, that's probably not part of the problem then... I wont comment on bi-wiring, other than to say I think it's a total waste of perfectly good speaker wire.

I don't understand what Pioneer means about "L&R power amp in", right above the L&R pre-outs? Plus the photo shows you clearly have the center channel output of the AVP hooked up to the center channel pre-out of the Pioneer, that is flat out wrong, and it is not going to work.

You should NOT have anything at all from the outputs of the AVP hooked up to the pre-outs of the Pioneer! Doing that is sending preamp outputs from both into each other.
Reply
Reply
post #17588 of 25153
9/4/10 at 11:44pm
Grassy, am with John. Do not understand why have anything on the pio connected to it's pre outs. I would have thought you would connect all pre outs on the denon to the pios pre INS that's it. Even once got the connections right. I still do think the pios pre stage will be a factor in things. Regardless I think over complicating things as is and likely the reason of the muddled result.
Reply
Reply
post #17589 of 25153
9/5/10 at 12:41am
Dont worry guys, i'm the one complicating things I should of explained it better in my posts. I am doing some more tests and see how i go.I reckon i have hooked it all up wrong from the start. I will keep you guys posted and thanks to everyone for putting me on the right path, its really appreciated. Any ways the truth is, is that i need a dedicated amp.
Reply
Reply
post #17590 of 25153
9/5/10 at 1:16am
What you need to do is take the fronts, center, sub , rca's out of where they are and connect them to the fronts center and sub , inputs of pio , just above those of sourounds , that you allready connected.
As previously stated , the way you have done it is connecting preouts of both units one another.As far the center chanel i mean.Do that and you are all set.Except ofcourse if there is a problem on the pio that led you to do what you did.Also remember that you will have to set pio vol in 0 position, and turn every process off , so you have the signal clear as much as possible.
Reply
Reply
post #17591 of 25153
9/5/10 at 1:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

OK, bi-wiring then, I remembered seeing you mention, "bi" something I just did not go back to check to make sure if it was bi-amp or bi-wire. Agree, that's probably not part of the problem then... I wont comment on bi-wiring, other than to say I think it's a total waste of perfectly good speaker wire.

I don't understand what Pioneer means about "L&R power amp in", right above the L&R pre-outs? Plus the photo shows you clearly have the center channel output of the AVP hooked up to the center channel pre-out of the Pioneer, that is flat out wrong, and it is not going to work.

You should NOT have anything at all from the outputs of the AVP hooked up to the pre-outs of the Pioneer! Doing that is sending preamp outputs from both into each other.

John, i think what pioneer means about "power amp in" is that it is used in connecting another power amp as it has 2 U shapped connectors that go in there.One for the left channel and one for the right.At least thats what i am reading in the manual for the pioneer.When you use the pio as a reciever or intergrated with and without the AVP they should stay in.If anyone else on the forum knows anything then i'm ready for a good Lecture on this. Well i am now pretty confident that there is nothing wrong with the AVP's channels.I think i have learnt the hard way.
Reply
Reply
post #17592 of 25153
9/5/10 at 1:23am
You don't need those , put them back in ,and connect avp the way i wrote above.
The 2 u connectors are for connecting pio as a pro , with another power amp.
You don;t need that, for multi channel .
Reply
Reply
post #17593 of 25153
9/5/10 at 1:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post

John, i think what pioneer means about "power amp in" is that it is used in connecting another power amp as it has 2 U shapped connectors that go in there.One for the left channel and one for the right.At least thats what i am reading in the manual for the pioneer.When you use the pio as a reciever or intergrated with and without the AVP they should stay in.

OK, now that you mentioned the "U shaped" jumper bars you removed, now I totally understand about that part of the receiver. WOW! It's been a long time since I've personally seen a receiver that still has those, last time I owned one that still had them, was back about 1997 when I had a Onkyo 5.1 TX-DS939 that had them.


Anyway, put the jumpers back in and then connect it all up exactly the way jomark911 said to do.
Reply
Reply
post #17594 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

You don't need those , put them back in ,and connect avp the way i wrote above.
The 2 u connectors are for connecting pio as a pro , with another power amp.
You don;t need that, for multi channel .

Ok, they are back in, i am getting sound from every speaker, but the sound is very low.Definately a prob with the pio.
Reply
Reply
post #17595 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:13am
Should the sub go directly to the avp as i am getting sound in doing so.
Reply
Reply
post #17596 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post

Ok, they are back in, i am getting sound from every speaker, but the sound is very low.Definately a prob with the pio.


Did you try adjusting the volume control on the Pioneer also or you just using the volume control on the AVP? The Pioneer volume control is also in the circuit, and there is no way you can avoid it being so, so you may need to turn it up.
Reply
Reply
post #17597 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post

Should the sub go directly to the avp as i am getting sound in doing so.


Yes, run subwoofer out on the AVP direct to the subwoofer.
Reply
Reply
post #17598 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Did you try adjusting the volume control on the Pioneer also or you just using the volume control on the AVP? The Pioneer volume control is also in the circuit, and there is no way you can avoid it being so, so you may need to turn it up.

Ok the pio volume is on "0" and then i will just use the avp"s vol control from here on in.Should i reset the pioneers settings to default as the pio has also been collabarated with MCACC.
Reply
Reply
post #17599 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:35am
If it was me, I'd turn the volume up all the way on the Pioneer and not worry very much about trying to set it to a certain DB setting. And then if you get it working with better volume levels than you have so far and if it distorts or anything, turn it down a bit. And when it all gets working, from then on only use the AVP's volume control. The the fact that the MACC of the Pioneer has been run and set, may screw you up, and it may really screw you up even more when you try run the Audyssey setup on the AVP. So it might be a really good idea to see if there is a reset procedure, that will put the Pioneer back to it's default settings of no MACC setup being done yet.
Reply
Reply
post #17600 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:44am
grassy

Sorry, but it's almost 5am here in Chicago, so I'm going to have to call it a night (or actually, in this case a early AM for some people). But I really need to get some sleep. Maybe someone else that gets up early, or that is closer to your own time zone, will join in a take you further if it still don't work quite right yet, but I do hope you get it working sooner rather than later.
Reply
Reply
post #17601 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:47am
:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

If it was me, I'd turn the volume up all the way on the Pioneer and not worry very much about trying to set it to a certain DB setting. And then if you get it working with better volume levels than you have so far and if it distorts or anything, turn it down a bit. And when it all gets working, from then on only use the AVP's volume control. The the fact that the MACC of the Pioneer has been run and set, may screw you up, and it may really screw you up even more when you try run the Audyssey setup on the AVP. So it might be a really good idea to see if there is a reset procedure, that will put the Pioneer back to it's default settings of no MACC setup being done yet.

You are exactly right, i have turned everything off and am just about to get into the pio speaker channel menu and set it to "0" all the levels have increased and now i am starting to think that there is nothing wrong at all with the pio. WOW this changes everything man i am happy I can hear the channels perfectly. You guys are awesome. This mean i dont have to send anything away for repair and i have saved a ton of money. I am Rapt
Reply
Reply
post #17602 of 25153
9/5/10 at 2:49am
Mcacc does not interfere with multi channel input, as audyssey does not in avp .
The 0 setting for volume just ensures that whatever level is entering the pio is going out with no further amplification.But if he feels the gain is little, sure he can run it all the way up.
Also grass make sure that no other process is running whithin pio.
Then try calibration in auto.As far the sub connection , correct run it from avp direct to the sub.
Run audyssey and see what it finds and how levels are.
Reply
Reply
post #17603 of 25153
9/5/10 at 3:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Mcacc does not interfere with multi channel input, as audyssey does not in avp .
The 0 setting for volume just ensures that whatever level is entering the pio is going out with no further amplification.But if he feels the gain is little, sure he can run it all the way up.
Also grass make sure that no other process is running whithin pio.
Then try calibration in auto.As far the sub connection , correct run it from avp direct to the sub.
Run audyssey and see what it finds and how levels are.

I am just about to run Audyssey now which should take around 20 minutes and i will post a screen shot of the results.Lifes good again Should i reset the micro processor on the avp.I really havn't anything important apart from my internet connection settings but i can redo those at a later date.Do you think i should.
Reply
Reply
post #17604 of 25153
9/5/10 at 3:29am
No grass it's not necesairy.
Reply
Reply
post #17605 of 25153
9/5/10 at 3:40am
just a couple more questions if i may, In audyssey auto setup should i worry about "PREOUT ASSIGN" AND "XLR POLARITY"
Reply
Reply
post #17606 of 25153
9/5/10 at 4:45am
Well, everything is working like it should, the levels are justifiable and the speaker measurements are realistic and i can hear the centre channel perfectly. In fact i have to turn it down, My volume on my amp is 0 and the volume on the AVP is an average of -5. What a difference. For the past 6 months i have had it hooked up wrong and totally forgot about the settings on the amp i am using by not turning every setting off on the amp didn't help. No wonder Audyssey couldn't get the measurements close. I am listening to the AVP for the first time. Just ike to say thanks to everyone for taking the time to help me with this as it is much apreciated and thanks for putting up with my misguiding info.I really have learnt a lot not only with the AVP but also the amp. Thanks everyone(you know who you are).Time for bed Goodnight
Reply
Reply
post #17607 of 25153
9/5/10 at 5:12am
Good job grass goodnight sleap tight.
Also when possible tell me what the max vol number the pio shows up on display.
I mean passed 0 what is the highest vol you can see.On mmulti channel input of course.
Reply
Reply
post #17608 of 25153
9/5/10 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

So it seems earlier in this thread there were some postings that Denon does not allow disengagement of the Re-EQ in THX mode, which is kind of poor for such a premier product.

I've emailed Denon to see if there is a "hidden" way, or if this can be added to a firmware update.

Coming back to this for a bit. As noted, THX modes do two things as far as I can tell:

if you have a 7.1 speaker config, then it uses all seven speakers for surround.
Regular 'surround' will only use 5.1 set up (again depending on other setup configs, as as surround A, B or A+B).

It applies the THX Re-EQ to all channels to meet the 'standard' for THX.

AFAIK there is no way to suppress this, as that would sort of make THX mode pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRADH View Post

Correct. What I meant to say was. Audyssey has a house curve when Audyssey is engaged. Audyssey curve is taken out, when THX or cinema re-eq is engaged. This way we don't get re-eq and Audyssey curve at the same time.

Brad

Correct. And just for completeness, lets remember that Audyssey has three modes:

Off - no room correction
Flat - Room corrected to a flat response
On - Room corrected to Audyssey target curve

So when I have Audyssey On, and select THX, what happens behind the scenes is that the AVP switches to Audyssey Flat, then superimposes the Re-EQ curves on top of it.

End result is room corrected, but still EQ'd to meet THX standards (mostly the high-frequency roll-offs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Though what I'm wondering is this: I use Audyssey Pro, and create custom curves for my fronts...when I choose Audyssey Flat, am I correct in assuming that also wipes out my custom curve...?

I also have Pro, and what happens is it switches to Flat, as I described above, when you go to THX.

I have a Pro curve with a bass lift, and I can tell the lift is gone when in THX modes.

And yes, 'flat' means just that, your custom curve only applies in 'Audyssey On' and no THX mode.
Reply
Reply
post #17609 of 25153
9/5/10 at 6:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post

Well, everything is working like it should, the levels are justifiable and the speaker measurements are realistic and i can hear the centre channel perfectly. In fact i have to turn it down, My volume on my amp is 0 and the volume on the AVP is an average of -5. What a difference. For the past 6 months i have had it hooked up wrong and totally forgot about the settings on the amp i am using by not turning every setting off on the amp didn't help. No wonder Audyssey couldn't get the measurements close. I am listening to the AVP for the first time. Just ike to say thanks to everyone for taking the time to help me with this as it is much apreciated and thanks for putting up with my misguiding info.I really have learnt a lot not only with the AVP but also the amp. Thanks everyone(you know who you are).Time for bed Goodnight

Now that it all works, consider selling the pioneer and get a external amp to release the real avp .

Daniel.
Reply
Reply
post #17610 of 25153
9/5/10 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Coming back to this for a bit. As noted, THX modes do two things as far as I can tell:

if you have a 7.1 speaker config, then it uses all seven speakers for surround.
Regular 'surround' will only use 5.1 set up (again depending on other setup configs, as as surround A, B or A+B).

It applies the THX Re-EQ to all channels to meet the 'standard' for THX.

AFAIK there is no way to suppress this, as that would sort of make THX mode pointless.



Correct. And just for completeness, lets remember that Audyssey has three modes:

Off - no room correction
Flat - Room corrected to a flat response
On - Room corrected to Audyssey target curve

So when I have Audyssey On, and select THX, what happens behind the scenes is that the AVP switches to Audyssey Flat, then superimposes the Re-EQ curves on top of it.

End result is room corrected, but still EQ'd to meet THX standards (mostly the high-frequency roll-offs).



I also have Pro, and what happens is it switches to Flat, as I described above, when you go to THX.

I have a Pro curve with a bass lift, and I can tell the lift is gone when in THX modes.

And yes, 'flat' means just that, your custom curve only applies in 'Audyssey On' and no THX mode.

Does your A1 Audyssey setting display it switched to Flat when in THX, or you've measured this? In my setup, being in THX mode does not change the Audyssey setting (at least what is displayed in the GUI).

I believe Onkyo/Inegra among others allows THX mode to be enabled, with an optional toggle for Re-EQ on or off....

Also, I thought it was PLII that expanded audio to 7.1. I can utilize all 7 speaker channels with THX off.

Anyway, not to beat a dead horse - it is what it is...
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread.