Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 652

So far, my comparison is with my Denon 5910CI via denon link - HUGE difference. I haven't had a chance to compare Flac with the shiny disc via Oppo but I suspect it will be the same.

Oppo customer service indicated that it might be the DSP built into the player ( I guess this means the FLAC TO LPCM conversion) not being to my liking.

I used DVD-A explorer to WAV and then foobar to FLAC.

There aren't many (if any) devices out there on the market now that will output hi-def multichannel flac (24/96) and 24/192 stereo or I would consider buying one. I thought that the Bryston and Olive units would but I am not sure even they will do this. I think it has to come into the AVP via HDMI or analog inputs. I wrote Oppo to see if the new 95 model would do a better job with flac to lpcm.

My goal is the get the flac playback to be identical to the shiny disc via my AVP.

Well the first thing you should do is play the physical disc in the OPPO and see how that compares to the 5910CI and FLAC. That will tell you if the problem is FLAC specific or something more generally wrong in the OPPO.


The only thing the 95 will do differently is better digital to analog conversion. ALL other functionality should be identical - they use the same main and video boards.

I stream FLAC to the AVP direct off the NAS via ethernet, and also with a streamer that does FLAC to MPCM conversion over HDMI (SageTV HD300) I'd be hard pressed to tell you the difference between either, and frankly they both sound on par with playing the discs, if not (subjectively) a bit better.
I just ripped my discs at their native resolution using DB Poweramp & Accurip. (Only 2channel red-book though, I haven't done any SACD's or DVD-A's yet.)

I think we all agree on the basics but i don't think denon & marantz have switched at all. What happened is that the world changed the analog parts are still important but its the digital parts that are now in control and where most brands have problems. Marantz (except projectors) was never leading and always spartan compared to denon, yamaha, pioneer and made up for it in analog/music creds. Now that the computer parts are so important we see more of the D&M partners take the basic platform and reuse it as a base. First only for things like dvd/blurays but now also for av/pre-pro's there is just no reason todo it 2 times within the group of companies. Lets not forget marantz used to take parts from companies like phillips (when still partly owned) and also upscale them.

Daniel.

OK guys - I had a chance to sit down and test this further. I probably should be posting this in the Oppo thread too since I had started this the other day over there........Anyway, here goes:

I played the FLAC file played from the Oppo and compared it to the DVD-A shiny disc played also in the Oppo and find little difference between them; They appear to be fairly equally sounding - They lack bass and midrange. It almost sounds like it is distorted.

Playing the same shiny disc in my Denon 5910CI (via DL) the disc comes alive. Bass and midrange are much better from ALL speakers -even the surrounds.

Played at around 80db peak on the 5910CI is comfortable but at 80db on the Oppo, it peaks more and is harsh.

For example, Graham Nash's "Songs For Survivors" DVD-A has a really nice strong bass and rich midrange and it all but disappears when playing the disc in the Oppo as both shiny disc and flac. Track 1 (Dirty Little Secret) has a very strong kick drum that begins about 20-30 seconds into the song and I can hardly hear it via the Oppo.

I have confirmed PCM multi channel direct coming in from the Oppo and the 5910CI - Same exact Audyssey settings. I am using HDMI 2 on the Oppo to my AVP and Denon Link on the 5910CI to the AVP; However, I have had this disc for years and I know how good the bass and midrange are supposed to sound even before I starting using Denon gear and DL in particular.

So, it appears I have eliminated the issue being from the FLAC file but it is now beginning to look like the Oppo is the culprit or something in my setup. I wonder if a faulty HDMI cable could be causing this? I might try HDMI 1 from my Oppo and switch cables next. I really don't want it to be the Oppo and hope for a simple resolution here. Thanks.

I seriously doubt it's the HDMI cable, it should either just work or not work, especially for audio, you're more likely to have problem with video.

I wonder if it's a setting in the Oppo related to the video output resolution? Something like having to have a higher video output resolution for the high rez audio to be transmitted. I've seen that in other players. When you play it check the input "info" on the GUI of the AVP and see what the resolution is coming in. It'll tell you if it's 24/96 or whatever.

I have the Oppo set to output video via HDMI 1 directly to my display and run HDMI 2 to the AVP for audio only (for 3D purposes). On the Oppo HDMI 1 is set for 1080p. The AVP front display correctly reads the input signal (48k, 96k, 192k).

Just to be clear, HDMI ALWAYS contains a video signal - you may only be using the audio from it, but the video is still there as audio is carried in the blanking intervals in the video. There's no harm in trying a different HDMI cable as it will just help rule out other problems. You're right though that this is probably best handled in the OPPO thread. I started out beta testing a BDP-93 and swapped it for a BDP-95 and have had absolutely no complaints with audio (or video) quality. It's certainly possible that you've got a defective player - with HDMI you definitely shouldn't be getting radical differences in sound when compared to another player also connected via HDMI. Something else to try is swapping the HDMI cables at the AVP end to verify that there isn't something wrong with the input or configuration of that input on the AVP.

Yes - I realize this - I was simply indicating my setup for 3D (video & audio) which my system remains in at all times.

I'll send an email to Oppo and see if they have any suggestions to try before I return it for repair.

Actually, my other player is connected via Denon Link. I at first suspected that the quality via Denon Link compared to HDMI but the more I listened, it became obvious there was a problem. I then suspected the quality of the rips, etc.. Now it is looking like the player.

My point applies for both HDMI and Denon Link. The point is that with a digital connection, you shouldn't be hearing radical differences. Any differences should be more subtle than what you're describing. Another comparison you can try is sending the audio from the 5910 via HDMI instead of Denon Link.

All valid points and I agree.

A little off topic but since we have so many apple users who use airplay a headsup. Apple just released iOS4.3 and a new itunes that extends the use of airplay and homesharing. This combined with more and more support from the hifi makers might break airplay into the mainstream. I know have had these types of systems for ages if you are a nerd but if its done on this scale the effects can be huge. I like how DenonJeff hints at apple placing more hifi brands into their retailshops instead of cheap docking stations .

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/gam....html?hpt=Sbin

On the airplay & homesharing itself, errors removed that gave me some hickups it seems. Added homesharing to iOS so you can now use _any_ itunes lib in your network, any iOS device can now send, control and receive anything.

I am now for example playing from my iphone4 (using homesharing) files from a macmini that has my nas attached works . Then i figure lets airplay this to my avp (that has a appletv2) works . Next lets get my ipad and use the remote app to see if i can control it works . 4 apple devices involved and it all works. Its not perfect yet but you can see where they are going with this in iOS5 you will beam, send, listen from any node in your network to anynode, multiple speakers etc etc...

So install iOS4.3 on iphone, ipods, ipads and AppleTV2's, update your itunes and play around.

Daniel.

PS2: homesharing also allows you to download anything new on a node (say you buy it) and sync it on the fly to other nodes. Buy it on your iphone, walk into your home and after a while your itunes nodes have a copy

Getting back to this lack of bass I posted about earlier.....I spent several hours today trying to troubleshoot this and it turns out that the Oppo is fine. I swapped HDMI cables, played discs in both players, swapped HDMI ports, etc..

What I found was that I great great bass with either player but only when playing through HDMI #2 on the AVP. Plugging either player into HDMI #1 or HDMI #3 results in a distinct lack of bass (I haven't had time to check the other HDMI ports).

This is why I was seeing the difference between the Oppo BDP93 and the Denon 5910CI: The 5910CI was plugged into HDMI #2 and the Oppo BDP93 was plugged into HDMI #1.

I went back and made sure that I had everything the same between input sources (Audyssey, mode, etc..) but never could get the bass the same between the different HDMI ports. My understanding is that the speaker settings are set for all inputs so that cannot be the issue. Short of there being a problem with the AVP, am I missing anything else here? Why would I get different bass on one HDMI port VS another on the AVP?

Thanks!

It sounds like you have covered everything. On the input mode did you check the decode mode? Just thinking out loud. Let hope its not your AVP.

Brad

Decode mode is set to AUTO for all HDMI ports. The AVP correctly shows PCM multchannel direct on the front display.

If it turns out to be the AVP, it ain't leaving my house until September.

This just occurred to me...........Is it possible that the AVP can only accept DVD-A or other hi-def audio source via HDMI #2 input? Somehow bandwidth limited - audio?

What I'm going to do for now as a workaround is to use HDMI #2 for the Oppo and HDMI #1 for the Denon since I only use the Denon 5910CI for SACD/DVD-A anyway via Denon Link (Only use the HDMI for on screen display).

Be interesting to know if anyone else can shed some light on this or perhaps duplicate what I am experiencing..........

Check the 2 channel settings for the inputs in question. Not sure how to get there on the menu... but I think you can have a different than default set-up for two channel output i.e. sub- no sub - different x-over etc.

I just found it and boy do I feel dumb!

In my haste to find a signal component or hardware at fault here I had overlooked the obvious, but apparently unclear, difference between MULTI CHANNEL and MULTI CHANNEL DIRECT on the front panel of the AVP.

When in MULTI CHANNEL mode, the bass is very poor. Switching to MULTI CHANNEL DIRECT I get much better bass. Not sure why there would be such a big difference in bass between the 2 modes but there is.....Looking in the manual it states that DIRECT bypasses the Tone Control circuitry so I guess this mode (Direct) provides an unadulterated signal as the mixing engineers of the disc had in mind. Multi channel by itself, engages the tone circuits which wipe out a lot of the bass (I guess ).

When cycling through the STATUS menus, when in MULTI CHANNEL mode there is an option called TONE CONTROL LFE_BASS and it is available in the GUI to change in the Paramter/Audio menus. When in MULTI CHANNEL DIRECT mode, this option is not available. Maybe those of you smarter than I or more knowledgeable able this can shed some light......

I think I'm gonna have to lay off that 18 year old scotch - it is affecting my brain.

Thanks for all that attempted to help - All is well - for now anyway.

Well the main thing is you're happy.

On the bass though, if you feel it's better without Audyssey, then based on my experience with both Audyssey and those that have used it is there's two potential issues in play.

One is you have a bad Audyssey calibration.

And second, which is very comon, is you've become used to bloated bass vs accurate bass. Accurate bass is frequently perceived as being anemic until the listener "acclimatizes" to it.

It seems like you've been around the block in this hobby, so the first case seems to be the most likely culprit.

In my system I find with the AVP there isn't an input be it analog, digital, multi-channel or two channel where the bass isn't appreciably better using Audyssey (Pro). The tonal balance, attack and decay is spot on.

Yeah we love happy endings

Best advice with bass & eq issues is to take a few weeks, try a few times, (save/load) settings for a few days. Giving up on these tools quickly probably will result in you losing something you could have loved in the long run.

But you have to except that its not run the audyssey tool once and your done.

Daniel.

I think you might have misunderstood: I have not manually defeated Audyssey. Audyssey remains on and the same for both Multichannel and Multichannel Direct. I have the exact same Audyssey settings for both. What is happening is the Multichannel (not multichannel direct) allows you to adjust the SW and Bass. By default, it is set at 0db. When you go to multichannel direct mode, you no longer can adjust the SW-Bass - that option goes away. In both cases, this is the AVP setting NOT any Audyssey setting. However, I guess, (and maybe this is what you mean) by not using the multichannel direct mode and just using multichannel, it could be turning on some tone control in the AVP that could be wiping out anything that Audyssey accomplished during the calibration, including bass/lfe.

All I know is that the bass is much richer in multichannel direct mode. The kickdrums are hardly noticeable in one mode and nicely clear in the other.

A contributing factor may be my speaker setup: I have a little unusual speaker setup (don't we all?) with four front l/r speakers with 2 of them floorstanders. I have them driven by separate amps. I also have 2 front subwoofers, again on separate amps. Then, I have 2 center channel speakers again on a separate amp. Thank goodness for Audyssey or I never would have gotten it setup.

Can anyone clarify/confirm this? I am not familiar with this particular processor but every other one that I have used bypasses Audyssey (or other room EQ) when in "direct" mode. The point of "direct" mode is to bypass as much digital processing as possible.

I just checked again......Assuming that when the front display lights indicate that Audyssey is engaged, then on my unit anyway, Audyssey remains engaged when in Direct mode. Both MultiEQ and Dynamic are lighted on my AVP as well as Multi Channel Direct. Also, when you cycle through using the STATUS button, it will show which Audyssey Mode(s) is active. Doing this while in MC Direct mode, shows Audyssey is active.

This is just my novice opinion, but from what I have seen, the AVP has a fairly sophisticated, and complicated, bass management system that isn't always clear. I have seen menus in the Denon GUI change before and after Audyssey calibration.

Not sure if anyone wants to know or cares, I picked up an old RC 1000 remote control a few years ago and used it for many functions that were not included on the funky new Denon remote that came with the 3806. I found the codes still work for the AVP. Really handy are the DIMMER and STATUS buttons. It has discrete ANALOG, EXT IN and a bunch of other direct hard buttons. I saved them in my Harmony database. I think these can be found on eBay for $5-10.

Strange, indeed. What can they possibly mean by "direct?"

Definitely contradictory. The manual even states that DIRECT bypasses tone control but isn't Audyssey all about tone control?

Well, whether it is a tone control or not is moot but something is either direct (bypassing everything except volume control) or not. Audyssey, tone controls, bass management, etc. are individually defeatable and one would hope for an explicit explanation.

I agree that DIRECT should be as you say. I guess my understanding of what tone control is may not be correct. I understood the callout for tone control in the owners manual to be any digital processing but you must be considering it to be a much narrower more specific type of processing and I'm sure your definition is the more correct one as I am certainly no expert with this (by any means).

See these posts - this has been reported before. Apparently Denon's implementation of DIRECT doesn't exclude Audyssey.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com