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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 708

post #21211 of 25153
11/28/11 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Agreed and for me the loss of the Surround B channels makes the upgrade not much of an upgrade at all.

Unless someone that had the upgrade done can confirm with 100% certainty that I can use Free Assign to route Surround A's to my surround B (so as to keep both my side array's in tact even though they both receive the surround A signal), then I'm out of the upgrade race!

Even if that is possible how would you deal with what I assume would be a different distance and EQ required for the surround B speakers; upload a new file each time?

I to passed on the upgrade because of this problem. I purchased the XT32 Sub EQ and Pro kit from Audyssey. Got the best of all worlds for me. XT32 where it really counts and a Pro EQ of XT where my room and speakers already peform well. Money well spent based upon the LF improvements, much smoother x-over region and much more accurate mic for the XT calibration. Plus the ability to customise your room EQ curve.
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post #21212 of 25153
11/28/11 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

I can't believe all this hand-wringing over the loss of Surround B? An easy solution is just to use a Y-cable and split the pre-amp signal of Surround, to the amp.

Sorry Sam that is NOT a solution for those of us that use Surround A/B for film and music. The EQ and distance requirements in my case for a pair of Genlec 1038's (music) and and pair of Genelec 8040's (film) both at different distances and heights cannot be handled after the upgrade other by uploading new calibarion data a tedious process for those of us who regularily switch between the two.

Hence my earlier post.
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post #21213 of 25153
11/28/11 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Sorry Sam that is NOT a solution for those of us that use Surround A/B for film and music. The EQ and distance requirements in my case for a pair of Genlec 1038's (music) and and pair of Genelec 8040's (film) both at different distances and heights cannot be handled after the upgrade other by uploading new calibarion data a tedious process for those of us who regularily switch between the two.

Hence my earlier post.

Then certainly you recognize that your set-up is rather uncommon? Or at least acknowledge that those looking for Audyssey DSX and Dolby PLIIz is likely to be greater than people with different surrounds for music/movies such as yourself?
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post #21214 of 25153
11/28/11 at 10:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Then certainly you recognize that your set-up is rather uncommon? Or at least acknowledge that those looking for Audyssey DSX and Dolby PLIIz is likely to be greater than people with different surrounds for music/movies such as yourself?

Yes, I realise that I am part of a minority that requires this function. However, I find it very difficult to believe that the Denon software enginers could not have provided the option : Surround B, Height or Wide instead of just Height or Wide. Unless of course there was just not enough memory to hold all the data required as no more processing ability is required. I, and I suspect many others, did not even require the Surround A+B option that also requires its own set of measurements.
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post #21215 of 25153
11/28/11 at 10:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Yes, I realise that I am part of a minority that requires this function. However, I find it very difficult to believe that the Denon software enginers could not have provided the option : Surround B, Height or Wide instead of just Height or Wide. Unless of course there was just not enough memory to hold all the data required as no more processing ability is required. I, and I suspect many others, did not even require the Surround A+B option that also requires its own set of measurements.

It's probably just a trade off they had to make. Not to mention the confusion it could cause with rear-panel layout, GUI, etc.

Surround A+B has been a Denon talking-point for 10+ years. Now that we have pseudo-extraction of both 5.1 and 7.1 all the way to 11.1 channels, it just had to be retired I suppose.


I'm actually more surprised that they didn't cannibalize the SW2/SW3 outputs so one could have separate/simultaneous Front Height and Front Width L/R.
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post #21216 of 25153
11/28/11 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

It's probably just a trade off they had to make. Not to mention the confusion it could cause with rear-panel layout, GUI, etc.

Surround A+B has been a Denon talking-point for 10+ years. Now that we have pseudo-extraction of both 5.1 and 7.1 all the way to 11.1 channels, it just had to be retired I suppose.


I'm actually more surprised that they didn't cannibalize the SW2/SW3 outputs so one could have separate/simultaneous Front Height and Front Width L/R.

I agree, and I thought that is what they would do but as XT32 is designed to support 2 subs with level matching etc. giving up SW2 was really never an option. I also believe that two subs are a lot more common than two pairs of surrounds. That left insufficient outputs for simultaneous support, leaving SW3 still supporting a third sub or tactile device.
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post #21217 of 25153
11/28/11 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

I agree, and I thought that is what they would do but as XT32 is designed to support 2 subs with level matching etc. giving up SW2 was really never an option. I also believe that two subs are a lot more common than two pairs of surrounds. That left insufficient outputs for simultaneous support, leaving SW3 still supporting a third sub or tactile device.

Good point. Does that mean that the AVR-4810/4311 are the only Denon units that support pre-outs for 11.x simultaneous channels? Or, can you only use 9.x at any given time, just like the AVP?

EDIT: I think DSX is either Front Height or Width. And ProLogic IIz is FH + 7.1, so only 9.x at any given time. Right??
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post #21218 of 25153
11/28/11 at 1:31pm
Loss of the surround B option also turned me off the upgrade. Like others mentioned here I use surround A only for music, reserving surround B only for films. All the 5 'music' channels are bi-amp'd via a POA-A1HD, the remaining surround B and surround back for 7.1 film soundtracks are via separate amplification. I also use all 3 sub outputs for both music and film modes. It was these options that also influenced my original purchase decision.

Was looking forward to this upgrade for XT-32. My options now are to go the separate unit route.

It's a great upgrade and kudos to Denon. I'm happy for owners that are subscribed to the program, but alas, now not for me.
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post #21219 of 25153
11/28/11 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Then certainly you recognize that your set-up is rather uncommon? Or at least acknowledge that those looking for Audyssey DSX and Dolby PLIIz is likely to be greater than people with different surrounds for music/movies such as yourself?

I'm not so sure about that. There are several of us with A/B setups... My impression is that most AVP owners are interested in XT32/Pro, less care about the other options like 3D and 9/11.x.

David
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post #21220 of 25153
11/28/11 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bankrupt View Post

I'm not so sure about that. There are several of us with A/B setups... My impression is that most AVP owners are interested in XT32/Pro, less care about the other options like 3D and 9/11.x.

David

I care about XT32 and 3D (only because 3D passthrough will simplify my cabling a little bit). I definitely don't care about the width / height channels.

And though I don't use the B outputs, it's pretty obvious to me why some people are upset about losing them and it seems like it's a pretty healthy percentage of people who are making use of them. It seems to me that memory (for storing the calibration settings for each channel) must be the limiting factor here as the free assign, rear panel labeling, etc. don't seem any more complicated to me if the B channels were to stay. It would definitely be nice to get a (non marketing) explanation as to why the feature is being deleted.
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post #21221 of 25153
11/28/11 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bankrupt View Post

I'm not so sure about that. There are several of us with A/B setups... My impression is that most AVP owners are interested in XT32/Pro, less care about the other options like 3D and 9/11.x.

David

Make a poll!
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post #21222 of 25153
11/28/11 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Hi Kum,
Would you please be able to say whether the streaming function is any different, faster or else?
Thank you

Although I am not familiar with NET/USB function,
when I use DLNA nas, it seems that steaming function is same as previos one.
Thanks.
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post #21223 of 25153
11/28/11 at 5:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

I agree not to give up first go. I had some difficulty with my room to start with and side surrounds using at the time. was early days then since then we have some great tips in the audyssey owners official thread,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

which is pretty full proof I reckon if follow to the letter, but if get into strife worth asking in that thread in any case. plenty of help to hand

Thanks for your info.
I will retry measurement after reading audyssey tips.
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post #21224 of 25153
11/28/11 at 5:25pm
I have been thinking about this too. 95% of the settings of the AVC/AVR/AVP are the same, so the amp guys can learn alot from us and vice versa.

Anyway here is a picture of my setup at the moment. No stand yet so the AVP and POA are on the floor on granite tiles. I designed my own stand and I am having it delivered next week. The POA is configured in bridged balanced mode for the 802Ds, and I am going to test bi-amp mode and bridged balanced bi-amp mode on Saturday afternoon!

My current system is:

AVP-A1HD
POA-A1HD
B&W 802D
PS3
SkyHD
Dell XPS 1730 and 24" 1920x1200 monitor
QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker cable

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post #21225 of 25153
11/28/11 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Even if that is possible how would you deal with what I assume would be a different distance and EQ required for the surround B speakers; upload a new file each time?

I to passed on the upgrade because of this problem. I purchased the XT32 Sub EQ and Pro kit from Audyssey. Got the best of all worlds for me. XT32 where it really counts and a Pro EQ of XT where my room and speakers already peform well. Money well spent based upon the LF improvements, much smoother x-over region and much more accurate mic for the XT calibration. Plus the ability to customise your room EQ curve.

I would be more concerned if we were talking about front channel discrete imaging but we're talking about surround signals which MultEQ would handle no problem because the timings, EQ curve and output levels would all be summed from all the seats being equalized. And at this point to me that would be a livable compromise (for me... yours is entirely a different challenge).

And Sam I undersand from a separates perspective a Y'd approach would work simplistically but just a reminder that I am a 5308 owner so a bit more of a challenge unless my only option is to buy another two channel amp (I'm currently space challenged in my 6ft rack already!), and thus the comment about the outlay required for this upgrade is a bit too rich.
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post #21226 of 25153
11/28/11 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kum@ View Post


Although I am not familiar with NET/USB function,
when I use DLNA nas, it seems that steaming function is same as previos one.
Thanks.

Thanks for the reply.
I admit it's disappointing to me... oh well
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post #21227 of 25153
11/29/11 at 5:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Good point. Does that mean that the AVR-4810/4311 are the only Denon units that support pre-outs for 11.x simultaneous channels? Or, can you only use 9.x at any given time, just like the AVP?
EDIT: I think DSX is either Front Height or Width. And ProLogic IIz is FH + 7.1, so only 9.x at any given time. Right??

The AVR 4311/A100 supports full 11.2 DSX W+H in either preamp mode or with 2 added channels of ext amplification (it only has 9 amps). Last I knew it was the only XT32 Pro-ready AVR made by anyone capable of doing all that.

According to posts on their thread the 4810 is full DSX W+H 11.3 capable with 2 ch of ext amplification added. But of course the 4810 does not have XT32 so that .3 doesn't utilize the latexst advances in sub ch processing.
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post #21228 of 25153
11/29/11 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

The AVR 4311/A100 supports full 11.2 DSX W+H in either preamp mode or with 2 added channels of ext amplification (it only has 9 amps). Last I knew it was the only XT32 Pro-ready AVR made by anyone capable of doing all that.

According to posts on their thread the 4810 is full DSX W+H 11.3 capable with 2 ch of ext amplification added. But of course the 4810 does not have XT32 so that .3 doesn't utilize the latexst advances in sub ch processing.

That's my understanding as well, but just to clarify, neither the 4311/A100 or 4810 do DTS: Neo X, only Audyssey DSX 11.X.

The newest Onkyo's/Integra's do have Neo X and XT32, but they can only do 9.2 channels at most.

So as of this point, there is no device out there that does DSX with 11 channels, Neo X, 3 sub capability, and XT32. There are many that do 3 of those 4, but none that do all 4.
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post #21229 of 25153
11/29/11 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Steve91 View Post

Loss of the surround B option also turned me off the upgrade. Like others mentioned here I use surround A only for music, reserving surround B only for films........ I'm happy for owners that are subscribed to the program, but alas, now not for me.

You A/B guys might have missed that a few pages back we discussed a work-around solution, actually a couple, using a simple routing switch and saving the Audyssey calibrations for any of A, B or A+B in either Audyssey Pro or the units' Web Control and re-loading the appropriate one for the desired use. Apparently the latter only takes about 10 minutes to reload the calibration and settings.

Yes you'd have to go through the nuisance of doing possibly three sets of measurements but a little extra front end work and you'd have a reasonable option.
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post #21230 of 25153
11/29/11 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bankrupt View Post

I'm not so sure about that. There are several of us with A/B setups... My impression is that most AVP owners are interested in XT32/Pro, less care about the other options like 3D and 9/11.x.

David

I'm of the camp that wants the upgrade for XT32, I could care less about 3D or having more than 7 surround channels.

I'm a music first guy, and given I have no point of reference as to what an alien spaceship coming out of the ground should sound like I'm not so anal about movie audio.
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post #21231 of 25153
11/29/11 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You A/B guys might have missed that a few pages back we discussed a work-around solution, actually a couple, using a simple routing switch and saving the Audyssey calibrations for any of A, B or A+B in either Audyssey Pro or the units' Web Control and re-loading the appropriate one for the desired use. Apparently the latter only takes about 10 minutes to reload the calibration and settings.

Yes you'd have to go through the nuisance of doing possibly three sets of measurements but a little extra front end work and you'd have a reasonable option.

Do-able, but not a family-friendly solution. All of us Surround B guys are in trouble when the AVPs tank or become antiquated, as Denon has dropped this feature on its other gear as well, and I've not been able to identify any other manufacturer that has this option.
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post #21232 of 25153
11/29/11 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You A/B guys might have missed that a few pages back we discussed a work-around solution, actually a couple, using a simple routing switch and saving the Audyssey calibrations for any of A, B or A+B in either Audyssey Pro or the units' Web Control and re-loading the appropriate one for the desired use. Apparently the latter only takes about 10 minutes to reload the calibration and settings.

Yes you'd have to go through the nuisance of doing possibly three sets of measurements but a little extra front end work and you'd have a reasonable option.

I didn't say anything a few pages back, but 10 minutes to switch between modes doesn't strike me as a reasonable option unless the user is making the switch very infrequently. The process to switch between saved settings would not be trivial to automate (in fact, it might be impossible to automate), so like DoctorO says it really isn't a family friendly solution. It would also be a royal PITA any time you change even something minor in your AVP's configuration as you would have to reload and resave each saved configuration to get the change reflected everywhere. Finally, I'm also concerned that frequent switches might cause whatever flash memory that's being used to fail prematurely - I know some types have a limited number of write cycles.
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post #21233 of 25153
11/29/11 at 2:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I didn't say anything a few pages back, but 10 minutes to switch between modes doesn't strike me as a reasonable option unless the user is making the switch very infrequently. The process to switch between saved settings would not be trivial to automate (in fact, it might be impossible to automate), so like DoctorO says it really isn't a family friendly solution. It would also be a royal PITA any time you change even something minor in your AVP's configuration as you would have to reload and resave each saved configuration to get the change reflected everywhere. Finally, I'm also concerned that frequent switches might cause whatever flash memory that's being used to fail prematurely - I know some types have a limited number of write cycles.

I agree its not a good/stable idea. But you could imho use the remote/web-protocol to change some settings on the fly. You can probably not redo audyssey but you could change distance and level. I am thinking that if you do that for movie mode its probably a good compromise.

Daniel.
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post #21234 of 25153
11/29/11 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Thanks for the reply.
I admit it's disappointing to me... oh well

I think whatever they could/would have done it will not be as nice as some of the new app ideas. Having a external iOS or android interface in combo with a external streamer if needed can bring you to levels denon or others can't even dream of. They should figure out how to join these eco-systems not even try to compete.

For example i can use siri+appletv2(airplay) to select any music by voice, search netflix, ask for youtube movies etc etc.

The fact that i can yell 'i want to listen to some queen' and after a few seconds my speakers start making sounds is well... jetsons like.

Daniel.
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post #21235 of 25153
11/29/11 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I agree its not a good/stable idea. But you could imho use the remote/web-protocol to change some settings on the fly. You can probably not redo audyssey but you could change distance and level. I am thinking that if you do that for movie mode its probably a good compromise.

Daniel.

Thanks for that idea, probably the best solution so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

The fact that i can yell 'i want to listen to some queen' and after a few seconds my speakers start making sounds is well... jetsons like.

Daniel.

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post #21236 of 25153
11/29/11 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

What an f-in joke! Called Denon Canada service support.. no 1-800 number... so a long distance call, 45 minutes on hold and still no answer! I punched 0 to see if I could get an operator or reception, it rang for about two minute then it disconnected.

.

Ha, well it turns out that Denon Canada's service support is answered in the US and they were closed Friday for Thanksgiving

I e-mailed them yesterday and got a quick repsonse. The upgrade is available now in Canada and I'm going to order it in the morning. The great thing is the service center is about a 5 minute drive for me so I'll be able to drop it off and hopefully pick it up the same day once the kit arrives.
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post #21237 of 25153
11/29/11 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post


I think whatever they could/would have done it will not be as nice as some of the new app ideas. Having a external iOS or android interface in combo with a external streamer if needed can bring you to levels denon or others can't even dream of. They should figure out how to join these eco-systems not even try to compete.

For example i can use siri+appletv2(airplay) to select any music by voice, search netflix, ask for youtube movies etc etc.

The fact that i can yell 'i want to listen to some queen' and after a few seconds my speakers start making sounds is well... jetsons like.

Daniel.

Are you serious? I wasn't aware of such technology... in my cave, anyway.

Well, that was my hope. An app by Denon to communicate with the avp like the apple's or many others.
I do use deremote, as nice as it is it's getting tiring, slow to scroll, small letters (need reading glasses) and no art work.

I guess, soon, the streaming feature will be less than a reason to get a Denon.
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post #21238 of 25153
11/29/11 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post


Ha, well it turns out that Denon Canada's service support is answered in the US and they were closed Friday for Thanksgiving

I e-mailed them yesterday and got a quick repsonse. The upgrade is available now in Canada and I'm going to order it in the morning. The great thing is the service center is about a 5 minute drive for me so I'll be able to drop it off and hopefully pick it up the same day once the kit arrives.

My upgraded unit arrived back home today - service took a week, shorter than I thought. Still redoing config but will report later
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post #21239 of 25153
11/29/11 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdna View Post


My upgraded unit arrived back home today - service took a week, shorter than I thought. Still redoing config but will report later

Looking forward to hearing you're thoughts on xt32,my AVP is sitting at my dealers waiting to be collected by the service agent.
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post #21240 of 25153
11/30/11 at 12:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdna View Post

My upgraded unit arrived back home today - service took a week, shorter than I thought. Still redoing config but will report later

Looking forward to it
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread.