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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 767

post #22981 of 25955
Digione,

You had mentioned $500 to "downgrade" yours. I'm just being curious - is the upgrade really reversible? I assume the shop would have to replace to orig circuit board(s) and reflash DSP's but for some reason, I thought I read somewhere that some soldering changes were involved on a board but I guess even that can be changed again.

and was that an official Denon fee or something your shop said they could do, for a price wink.gif

since I finally decided not to get an AVP, it doesn't really concern me, but thought I'd ask just for my own fyi smile.gif
post #22982 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

Sounds like something that should be done through a firmware update.

Audyssey XT32 requires additional processing in the form of 3 new SHARC ADSP21487 chips. Needs more than firmware!
post #22983 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Audyssey XT32 requires additional processing in the form of 3 new SHARC ADSP21487 chips. Needs more than firmware!
5 total?
Do all the cheap XT32 receivers have 5 Sharc DSPs too?
Edited by Victor - 7/19/12 at 1:21pm
post #22984 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Audyssey XT32 requires additional processing in the form of 3 new SHARC ADSP21487 chips. Needs more than firmware!
The only way I can imagine that is that Denon replaces entire DAC board in the addition to the HDMI I/O one. Are they replacing 2 boards?
post #22985 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

5 total?
Do all the cheap XT32 receivers have 5 Sharc DSPs too?

The new DSPs are on an auxiliary daughter board that we assume bypasses the original decoder board DSPs. More info here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1006957/official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-and-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread/21150#post_21249739

I don't know what Onkyo uses, but the AVR-4311CI uses a single ADSP21487 and a ADSP21367. The AVP/5308 needs three of the 21487s, one for decoding, one for THX and one for XT32.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

The only way I can imagine that is that Denon replaces entire DAC board in the addition to the HDMI I/O one. Are they replacing 2 boards?

The HDMI board does not get replaced. Only the addition of the daughter decoder board.
post #22986 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

The new DSPs are on an auxiliary daughter board that we assume bypasses the original decoder board DSPs. More info here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1006957/official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-and-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread/21150#post_21249739
I don't know what Onkyo uses, but the AVR-4311CI uses a single ADSP21487 and a ADSP21367. The AVP/5308 needs three of the 21487s, one for decoding, one for THX and one for XT32.
The HDMI board does not get replaced. Only the addition of the daughter decoder board.
Thanks!
How did they solved 3D pass through without replacing the board with the HDMI chips?
post #22987 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post

Thanks!
How did they solved 3D pass through without replacing the board with the HDMI chips?

3D pass through can be accomplished via firmware update. It involves re-programming where the decoder looks for the audio within the HDMI stream. Same thing happened with the PS3, 3D passthrough accomplished via firmware.
post #22988 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

The new DSPs are on an auxiliary daughter board that we assume bypasses the original decoder board DSPs. More info here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1006957/official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-and-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread/21150#post_21249739
I don't know what Onkyo uses, but the AVR-4311CI uses a single ADSP21487 and a ADSP21367. The AVP/5308 needs three of the 21487s, one for decoding, one for THX and one for XT32.
The HDMI board does not get replaced. Only the addition of the daughter decoder board.

Kind of fun to reread all these comments (forgot how much time i put in making these images and stuff) also note that we have been talking/handling this upgrade for nearly 3 years now amazing just amazing. Maybe we should slowly but surely start talking about the next upgrade and shame denon into making one for us say in 2015 smile.gif

Daniel.
post #22989 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Kind of fun to reread all these comments (forgot how much time i put in making these images and stuff) also note that we have been talking/handling this upgrade for nearly 3 years now amazing just amazing. Maybe we should slowly but surely start talking about the next upgrade and shame denon into making one for us say in 2015 smile.gif
Daniel.

Your work to explain all the details is such a benefit to all AVP/5308 enthusiasts, thanks again!

I'm personally not counting on another upgrade. Technically, the upgraded AVP is already a bit outdated by lack of 4k passthough, but we might be 3 years away from those displays at reasonable prices.
post #22990 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Your work to explain all the details is such a benefit to all AVP/5308 enthusiasts, thanks again!
I'm personally not counting on another upgrade. Technically, the upgraded AVP is already a bit outdated by lack of 4k passthough, but we might be 3 years away from those displays at reasonable prices.

I've already enquired about 4k upgrade and received reply from Denon
Quote:
Denon have no plans to offer a 4K video upgrade for any models
post #22991 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Your work to explain all the details is such a benefit to all AVP/5308 enthusiasts, thanks again!
I'm personally not counting on another upgrade. Technically, the upgraded AVP is already a bit outdated by lack of 4k passthough, but we might be 3 years away from those displays at reasonable prices.

Thanks as a nerd i did it mostly for myself but.... and i was joking about the upgrade maybe i should have added a smile.gif. I think we all have to accept that the AVP is end of life. The reasons are multiple but i am still very happy with me picking (and waiting) for the avp+poa in 2007 its clear we will be 'ok' until say 2013/2014 before we really are going to miss features and i think having a 6 to 7 year run is just amazing for a device this complex.

I also think for it will be my last 'old style' pre/pro i think next up will be a much more networked model instead of a matrix (switching) box that is the core of a pre/pro.

Daniel.
post #22992 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Digione,
You had mentioned $500 to "downgrade" yours. I'm just being curious - is the upgrade really reversible? I assume the shop would have to replace to orig circuit board(s) and reflash DSP's but for some reason, I thought I read somewhere that some soldering changes were involved on a board but I guess even that can be changed again.
and was that an official Denon fee or something your shop said they could do, for a price wink.gif
since I finally decided not to get an AVP, it doesn't really concern me, but thought I'd ask just for my own fyi smile.gif

It was an unofficial estimate through a "back door" wink.gif

However, after further testing of the upgrade I am slowly begining to feel it was worthwile. Maybe as much as a 10% improvement, the overall soundfield is definetley more "open". My loss of surround B was coloring my acoustic perception of the finer improvements that XT32 gave me. I also finally realised why the box dissappears around the Audyssey logo when running SACD over DL3 and found the adjustable HPF for the sub.smile.gif

I will be running extensive listening tests and timings on reloading various surround setups over the network connection this weekend.

Also further to the earlier commnets about running the Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ together with the XT32 processng inside the AVP; Chris at Audyssey confirmed that there was no downside to this and a benefit related to sub blending. More on this after testing. However the bass is definetley more refined.
post #22993 of 25955
I can certainly see circumstances where it would be of benefit, I'd just be cautious it wasn't redundant.

So why does the box dissapear with SACD?
post #22994 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I can certainly see circumstances where it would be of benefit, I'd just be cautious it wasn't redundant.
So why does the box dissapear with SACD?

I fully understand, and a double conversion is never beneficial and rarely transparent. As soon as I am familiar with the current setup and get all that I can out of it I will bypass the Sub EQ and re-run Audyssey to see if there are any positive changes.

The box is only present when you run Direct on an SACD stream and DSD apperas in the display. If you don't run Direct the signal is converted into PCM and the box goes away. I have no idea why that effects Audyssey as all the settings seem to remain the same.

Does anybody have any opinions on running stereo subs (L/R) as opposed to mixed subs. I used ro run the two subs (SVS PB12-NSD's) driven from the single sub out but I wanted the ability to adjust sub levels and distances independently so I now run them in stereo mode.
post #22995 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

into PCM and the box goes away. I have no idea why that effects Audyssey as all the settings seem to remain the same.

I don't think that is correct. The box indicates that the Audyssey parameters are configured the same as the results that were obtained from the automatic set-up. If you move a speaker distance even .1ft, the box will disappear. If the box is there, that means Audyssey is active, of course. And if Audyssey is active on a DSD signal, by nature it is being converted to PCM. They only way to get a pure DSD path from the AVP is to disengage all Audyssey parameters. In other words, you would see no Audyssey indicator on the right of the display, nor any boxes. And you would need to be in either Direct or Pure Direct mode.

I am not surprised to read that you hear improvements with the new Audyssey/upgrade that may outweigh the loss of Surround B. It my experience, even straight 2ch sound is improved with the upgrade. I attribute this improved fidelity the upgraded decoder. All digital signals must run through this improved decoder(s), so I think a corresponding sonic improvement is not too far of a stretch.
post #22996 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

I don't think that is correct. The box indicates that the Audyssey parameters are configured the same as the results that were obtained from the automatic set-up. If you move a speaker distance even .1ft, the box will disappear. If the box is there, that means Audyssey is active, of course. And if Audyssey is active on a DSD signal, by nature it is being converted to PCM. They only way to get a pure DSD path from the AVP is to disengage all Audyssey parameters. In other words, you would see no Audyssey indicator on the right of the display, nor any boxes. And you would need to be in either Direct or Pure Direct mode.
I am not surprised to read that you hear improvements with the new Audyssey/upgrade that may outweigh the loss of Surround B. It my experience, even straight 2ch sound is improved with the upgrade. I attribute this improved fidelity the upgraded decoder. All digital signals must run through this improved decoder(s), so I think a corresponding sonic improvement is not too far of a stretch.

When I was looking at this a few days ago, I think I remember seeing that this box functionality was changed with the upgrade that added Dynamic Volume (2009?). The current addendum to the manual and the Dynamic Volume addendum both show that anytime you change the speaker configurations from what Audyssey automatically calibrates for, the box will go away. In the original AVP manual, I think I remember reading that the box went away when you went from full Audyssey to bypass, flat and manual modes. I could cite page numbers if anyone needs them but it will be sometime over the weekend before I get back home. It is in the Audyssey section of both the original manual and the addendums (addendi, addendum?) to the manual.
post #22997 of 25955
Sam is correct ... as noted on p. 8 in the Addendum manual ....




However, you can also apply XT32 to the Direct input by changing the Option - Direct Mode setting on p. 22 in the 3D Upgrade manual ....

post #22998 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

When I was looking at this a few days ago, I think I remember seeing that this box functionality was changed with the upgrade that added Dynamic Volume (2009?). The current addendum to the manual and the Dynamic Volume addendum both show that anytime you change the speaker configurations from what Audyssey automatically calibrates for, the box will go away. In the original AVP manual, I think I remember reading that the box went away when you went from full Audyssey to bypass, flat and manual modes. I could cite page numbers if anyone needs them but it will be sometime over the weekend before I get back home. It is in the Audyssey section of both the original manual and the addendums (addendi, addendum?) to the manual.

In my experience the box only seems to vanish around Audyssey MULTEQ XT when you make any changse to the default values created when Audyssey is initially run. As I am still running all the default values that Audyssey set, the box never goes away for any configurations except for SACD over DL3. It is only when I engage Direct mode that the box re-appears. There is even a referenece in the manual that you should run Direct when using DSD. Examining any of the parameters shows no change to any I can see when Direct is on or off. Please note that I have also selected Audyssey to be active during Direct mode in the Audyssey menu.

I will investigate further tonight, but this seems to support the above manual extracts.
Edited by Digione - 7/20/12 at 9:15am
post #22999 of 25955
^^
Makes one wonder if some elements of Audyssey are active even in DSD mode.
post #23000 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

^^
Makes one wonder if some elements of Audyssey are active even in DSD mode.

Do you mean DSD DIRECT? As long as you don't have Audyssey engaged in Direct/Pure Direct via the method that jdsmoothie showed in post #22999 above, then the only Audyssey parameters that are active in DSD DIRECT are speaker level, and distance. This applies to MCH DSD DIRECT, as well. The Audyssey logo/box is only on the display when there is Audyssey EQ/Volume processing taking place.
post #23001 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Do you mean DSD DIRECT? As long as you don't have Audyssey engaged in Direct/Pure Direct via the method that jdsmoothie showed in post #22999 above, then the only Audyssey parameters that are active in DSD DIRECT are speaker level, and distance. This applies to MCH DSD DIRECT, as well. The Audyssey logo/box is only on the display when there is Audyssey EQ/Volume processing taking place.

So with Audyssey engaged in Direct mode why is the box present in DSD Direct and not when DSD is converted to PCM in the none Direct mode? Or am I missing something here?
post #23002 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Does anybody have any opinions on running stereo subs (L/R) as opposed to mixed subs. I used ro run the two subs (SVS PB12-NSD's) driven from the single sub out but I wanted the ability to adjust sub levels and distances independently so I now run them in stereo mode.

I think it depends on a combination of what you're after regarding bass and how your system is set up. Obviously running stereo subs you have to place them accordingly, and I think the benefit lies in how high you crossover your mains or surrounds, if any of them are above 80hz having them set up left/right will help to delocalize the bass above the crossover point.
If your goal is SPL or "slam" you want them located together and summed at the best location in the room.
If the goal is to cancel out standing wave problems or to have even bass response throughout the room then a front back configuration is an excellent option, you wouldn't run them in stereo, but you would EQ them individually. This would also help to delocalize any bass above 80hz from the surrounds.

There's no wrong way, and the beauty is XT32 and the AVP can handle whatever configuration floats your boat with ease.
post #23003 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

.
There's no wrong way, and the beauty is XT32 and the AVP can handle whatever configuration floats your boat with ease.

Since the XT32 upgrade my boat is levitating smile.gif

But I still morn the loss of my Surround B's. mad.gif
post #23004 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

So with Audyssey engaged in Direct mode why is the box present in DSD Direct and not when DSD is converted to PCM in the none Direct mode? Or am I missing something here?

What is an example of a "non DIRECT" mode you use, where the box disappears? I can only speculate that one of the Audyssey parameters has been adjusted as part of engaging another mode outside of DIRECT. One example would be engaging 7ch stereo, where you're using 7 speakers and maybe only 5 were measured as part of the initial Audyssey configuration step.
post #23005 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

What is an example of a "non DIRECT" mode you use, where the box disappears? I can only speculate that one of the Audyssey parameters has been adjusted as part of engaging another mode outside of DIRECT. One example would be engaging 7ch stereo, where you're using 7 speakers and maybe only 5 were measured as part of the initial Audyssey configuration step.

Sam,

I am using MUTLI CHL DIRECT or MULTI CHANNEL on a DL3 link running 5.1 SACD (DSD). I have not made any changes to any Audyssey/speaker parameter settings since I ran PRO. I only ran PRO to set up a 7.2 speaker system with the H/W speakers disabled and their pre-outs assigned to run my surround B speakers in parrallel with Surround A (only one pair is powered up at any time for either Music or Film). Engaging Direct on any DL3 PCM input does not affect the box, as would be expected.

I will search the menus again tonight to see if I inadvertently changed something.
post #23006 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Sam,
I am using MUTLI CHL DIRECT or MULTI CHANNEL on a DL3 link running 5.1 SACD (DSD). I have not made any changes to any Audyssey/speaker parameter settings since I ran PRO. I only ran PRO to set up a 7.2 speaker system with the H/W speakers disabled and their pre-outs assigned to run my surround B speakers in parrallel with Surround A (only one pair is powered up at any time for either Music or Film). Engaging Direct on any DL3 PCM input does not affect the box, as would be expected.
I will search the menus again tonight to see if I inadvertently changed something.

I have a 5910CI (DL4) and will check the results with my rig tonight or tomorrow. Engrossed in the British Open so I really have to go out of my way to play music this weekend. biggrin.gif
post #23007 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Sam,
I am using MUTLI CHL DIRECT or MULTI CHANNEL on a DL3 link running 5.1 SACD (DSD). I have not made any changes to any Audyssey/speaker parameter settings since I ran PRO. I only ran PRO to set up a 7.2 speaker system with the H/W speakers disabled and their pre-outs assigned to run my surround B speakers in parrallel with Surround A (only one pair is powered up at any time for either Music or Film). Engaging Direct on any DL3 PCM input does not affect the box, as would be expected.
I will search the menus again tonight to see if I inadvertently changed something.

I really don't know of any explanation, based on that information. Could be some weirdness of DL, or something small in your set-up menu, like an LFE boost for PCM. Even though I realize that is unlikely.
post #23008 of 25955
^^

I checked mine tonight and this doesn't appear to be limited to Denon Link playback. Mine does the same thing for multichannel SACD either through DL (Denon 5910CI) or HDMI (Oppo -93). Note that this only affects multichannel SACD on my unit; For stereo SACD's, the box remains no matter what mode is selected.

The only explanation I can surmise is that "Standard" mode for multichannel SACD includes Dolby EX for some setups (7.x?) and if you choose Direct or Pure Direct, you bump it out of that +Dolby EX mode. Direct and Pure Direct modes will give you the box back.

So, it would appear that Sam was on the right track with one of his previous posts (the one with modes and # of speakers).

PS: BTW, sitting here listening to Pink Floyd's re-release of WYWH SACD and it is pretty phenomenal with XT32 now. Was going to watch more golf but now I will sit back and give the Floyd a listen.............
Edited by WillyJ - 7/20/12 at 7:03pm
post #23009 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Since the XT32 upgrade my boat is levitating smile.gif
But I still morn the loss of my Surround B's. mad.gif

Yeah, the XT32 upgrade seems to make the AVP really shine. Wonder if the quality of the various components enhance this. Sorry about your loss......
post #23010 of 25955
Can't Do A Web Save Since the Upgrade

Has anybody else had a problem saving the AVP's settings since the upgrade?

Although I can access the AVP web page and see and view all the menu items etc. when I click the "save setting" button nothing happens confused.gif

The AVP doesn't say Saving in the front panel and then the web application times out responding with "incomplete save".

My network connection is good and I can also stream music. I tried a MAC, PC and three different web browser applications. All gave the same result.

I have set the power saver setting in the Network menu to be on but on do not recall having to do anything else to save settings.

Can anybody help me here?
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