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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 774

post #23191 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Thanks for repying willyj smile.gif
In regards of heights as im doing heights:
I noticed with DSX the front sound stage came alive but if you watch a movie and the voice pans to the left/right speaker you get a hall/echo effect which doesnt sound to crash hot. Ive tried neo, but they state its mainly for 11.1.
The pllz does the offphase surround ( ive read) i find is best for me. Works really well when a helicopter flies over head from the back then directly to the front heights. You can tell the difference on/off. Ill never go back smile.gif
Im intrested in what works for you willyj and thanks again for replying.

I have to order some different stands. Turns out the ones I have will not extend high enough to clear my couch and chair. All I wound up doing yesterday was making sure it was hooked up correctly and that I had sound. Will post again when I get some time to work through it.
post #23192 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

nope & I won't try smile.gif
all companies are "guilty" of using marketing lingo, no different than AL24 (what's that really, upsampling to 192/24 or just expansion to 24 bits?) Pioneer at least says Hi-Bit-Hi-Sampling, which is a bit more descriptive. Doesn't negate the benefits of AL24, just doesn't do anything to explain what it does wink.gif
Pioneer uses Optimum Surround for one of their surround processing modes & describing it has "balancing" the soundfield channels. I know it makes a difference but have no idea what it really does. Every company does it.
Look, I didn't intend to start a debate, just a discussion. Hopefully, that's what we're having, an intelligent discussion of what these features are about & can do.
I just stated the factors that were important to me in reaching a decision. I've already said I've heard Audyssey Multi32XT where it counts and it didn't make that much difference over my parametric EQ - no different than some of you saying DL made no difference to you. That's not the same as saying it can't make a difference wink.gif And doesn't negate the fact that many of you have gotten improvements with upgrading. I never would say Multi32XT can't make a noticeable, audible improvement. Why should this feature be any different? It just looks like because it doesn't fit the paradigms of thinking some have, that it's not useful to enhance audio.
Sam S has been objective here, he's tried it and said it made no difference to him. His point is right, unless you've tried it, how do you know? Rejecting it because you don't want to spend $$ on a $2000 player (a good reason) or because of marketing lingo (maybe not as good a reason) are not exactly objective conclusions on the validity of the feature.

Indeed my goal was not to attack you or even DL concept i think it was solid and let me repeat solved a problem for several types of content. My arrows where more aimed at denon if they are reading that what we hear from the next version sound the wrong direction that is the point i and JonFo are making. With DL and AL24, AL24+, AL24Advanced, AL32 its harder to find out what it does/did but they didn't slowly move to area where it made less sense. Denon and others seem to want to keep the 'jitter' problem alive instead of solving it with generic parts and protocols moving it into the grey area.

Good luck with your picking of a pre/pro my first comment on your question was why not get the AVP and some of the older (DL) players there are some fine ones out there and like JonFo stated maybe some convertor is possible.

Daniel.
post #23193 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^
However, in my BluRay DL4 tests I purposely used 2 copies of k d lang's wonderful Live in London concert Bluray for the A/B comparison because of the sonic quality. DL had no advantage.

And with the (limited) knowledge we on this thread have (i fully admit i am not a expert might be missing something) that was a expected result that it would make no difference on formats that need to be decoded and timed inside the endpoint anyway. But lets wait until we hear more about where they are going with this but i am worried.

Daniel.
post #23194 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Willy
I'm sorry I posted that. I wasn't thinking redface.gif
We did have couple of PM exchanges but I did respect your decision. You were the only one in Atl I knew who had one, including dealers, so at the time I was hoping to hear one.
Please accept my sincere apology for posting what I did. I had no right to bring you into it or say what I did. I wasn't trying to offend but looking at my post again, it wasn't cool. No excuse on my part.

No problem.
post #23195 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^You're welcome.
I agree about movie soundtracks. And I'd add that I don't listen to them as critically, as the whole point is to be more immersed in the story by being immersed in the surround bubble. I even use DSX wides for film, and would never do that for music.
However, in my BluRay DL4 tests I purposely used 2 copies of k d lang's wonderful Live in London concert Bluray for the A/B comparison because of the sonic quality. DL had no advantage.
...

remember that DL4 will only improve LPCM over HDMI, it does *nothing* for TrueHD or DTS-MA or Dolby Digital. Nothing.

So only if you have the player decoding the soundtrack (so it can mix in the 'menu' noises, or directors commentary), will it improve things by lowering jitter of LPCM over HDMI.

In your test, did you use any of the bitstreamed codecs (like TrueHD)?

If so, not surprised at the results, there is no diff. then.

There are very, very few BluRay discs with high-rez LPCM soundtracks. Even audio centric discs all use TrueHD or DTS-MA these days. and on our AVP, those yield the absolute best audio quality I've ever achieved.
post #23196 of 25955
My last post made me think that it might be worthwhile asking this question to the group:

Have you configured your BluRay player to bitstream your audio?

that is, elected to not hear 'menu sounds'?

If you still hear 'bloop, bloop' when messing with Bluray menus, you might not be bitstreaming.

Here's how to check if you are getting the 'real deal' on the avp

Press Menu, then select info, then audio input. It will show you the current inputs format.

if it's MCH Input, and you know the BR has a TrueHD or DTS-MA track, then you're not set up right (unless you have DL4).
Edited by JonFo - 8/20/12 at 7:21pm
post #23197 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I have to order some different stands. Turns out the ones I have will not extend high enough to clear my couch and chair. All I wound up doing yesterday was making sure it was hooked up correctly and that I had sound. Will post again when I get some time to work through it.

Looking forward in reading your impressions.


Btw it's been awhile this thread has been this active, good to see the wheels are turning smile.gif
post #23198 of 25955
I have a question for you experts out there:

I redid my room and went from 5.1 to 7.2 and now have added wides too.

I sometimes like to listen to 2 channel sources in Dolby ProLogic II mode and since I have now made my system 7.2 I am listening to PLIIx but don't like my 2 channel stuff coming at me from behind. I do have separate amps for each 2 channel pair so I can trigger the rear surrounds off when listening to certain sources/surround formats but I am wondering if I am defeating anything when I do this. If Audyssey and PLIIx are assuming I have back surrounds and I have them off I am wondering if something is getting routed to them which means I am missing these streams since they might be sending streams to them that normally would be going to other channels.

Alternately, does turning the wides off when it is steering streams to them mean I am missing some critical streams that would normally be routed elsewhere; To the front mains for instance?

I looked to see if there was an option for plain-jane PLII but didn't see it in the AVP menus. I see THX Pro Logic which is a 5.2 format but don't know how this compares to PL and PLII. Am listening in this mode right now.
Edited by WillyJ - 8/19/12 at 6:42pm
post #23199 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I was thinking of the 95 at one stage Im assuming your using the balanced cables to the AVP?
Actually, my phono preamp usually gets the honor of using the balanced input on the AVP, but I have hooked the 95 up to the balanced input for testing purposes. Most of the time though, I just use HDMI for audio because Audyssey just makes everything sound better and there's no point using the analog inputs if I'm going to use Audyssey for a digital source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Maybe the architecture of the AVP minimizes any of the benefits of DenonLink or other internal clock control?
I realize you've got your mind made up on all this, but until you've actually heard the (upgraded) AVP, with standard HDMI connection, it's really impossible for you to make a judgement about "improvements" offered by DenonLink, etc. I've actually been able to A/B with this specific gear, you have not.

Wow - what a discussion has surfaced around the whole DenonLink thing...

One thing that should be kept in mind is how much jitter the player that's being used for the comparison has. For example, the Oppo 93 &95 were tested by Secrets and found to have extremely low jitter, which wouldn't leave much room for improvement. That combined with how the AVP reclocks everything should yield an excellent result even if DL isn't being used.
post #23200 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

One thing that should be kept in mind is how much jitter the player that's being used for the comparison has. For example, the Oppo 93 &95 were tested by Secrets and found to have extremely low jitter, which wouldn't leave much room for improvement. That combined with how the AVP reclocks everything should yield an excellent result even if DL isn't being used.

Careful. Correct me if I am mistaken, but Secrets measured the jitter spectra of the Oppos' resultant analog outputs. In other words, Secrets tested the jitter rejection of the Oppos' DACs. That says nothing of their jitter performance when used as transports.

AJ
post #23201 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

Careful. Correct me if I am mistaken, but Secrets measured the jitter spectra of the Oppos' resultant analog outputs. In other words, Secrets tested the jitter rejection of the Oppos' DACs. That says nothing of their jitter performance when used as transports.
AJ
Looks like we're both mistaken wink.gif (though I believe you're also correct that they did measure jitter on the analog outputs). From their review:
Quote:
Jitter for the 93 and 95 was essentially identical (I didn't measure it in the 93NE because the transport is not altered in the NuForce edition of the player). The measurement was taken from the coaxial digital output, using a CD containing an 11 kHz sine wave as the test signal. This test measures jitter in the digital bitstream, in the digital domain, as compared to other types of measurements using the analog output signal and deducing the amount of jitter from the resulting spectrum. Jitter averaged about 5-10 pico-seconds when the signal was playing, with 17 major peaks, the largest of which was 900 pico-seconds. These are very good results.

I thought there had been a follow-up that measured jitter on their HDMI outputs, but I can't find it and may have just misremembered.
post #23202 of 25955
Aren't you guys glad I stopped by as a catalyst eek.gif

Seriously jitter control can be an interesting subject that sometimes gets controversial. Occasionally, similar debates about the value of their PQLS get going in Pioneer threads.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/20/12 at 2:47am
post #23203 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Aren't you guys glad I stopped by as a catalyst eek.gif
Seriously jitter control can be an interesting subject that sometimes gets controversial. Occasionally, similar debates about the value of their PQLS get going in Pioneer threads.

Sure we don't mind a good discussion, But i do think i am still misunderstood the discussion is not if we believe in jitter (and jitter control) but what denon is doing to its 'crude' solution (DL) in the next version. That was the only point i was trying to make as several have pointed out they could not hear a difference on newer formats and we tried to point out why that is. Instead of them updating DL with very little keeping on the track of jitter reduction they should just bystep the whole thing like with the new formats.

So the question is in what ways can you solve the basic problem and imho both PQLS and DL are old way of thinking and if the industry keeps doing that others (mostly computer companies) will take over. Notice for most brands the 'hot' features this year are things like airplay and control from iOS and Android devices both areas are made by outsiders and most of the time the implementation isn't even done by audio companies they just attach them blindly to their systems. In the case of D&M (denon, marantz etc etc) they use bridgeCO for this.

Daniel.
post #23204 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

remember that DL4 will only improve LPCM over HDMI, it does *nothing* for TrueHD or DTS-MA or Dolby Digital. Nothing.
So only if you have the player decoding the soundtrack (so it can mix in the 'menu' noises, or directors commentary), will it improve things by lowering jitter of LPCM over HDMI.
In your test, did you use any of the bitstreamed codecs (like TrueHD)?
If so, not surprised at the results, there is no diff. then.
There are very, very few BluRay discs with high-rez LPCM soundtracks. Even audio centric discs all use TrueHD or DTS-MA these days. and on our AVP, those yield the absolute best audio quality I've ever achieved.

I decode all in the avp if i can, the loss of menu sound is know but i as most people i guess don't care. Imho this is again a example of bad design they should have solved the overlay audio in a different way.

Daniel.
post #23205 of 25955
For those non-AVP owners out there who might be interested in purchasing an AVP, now that it appears to be discontinued, I see where DAKMART is still showing refurbished units on their website at almost 1/2 off list price when new. They come with a 1 year warranty. I know nothing about Dakmart nor am I plugging them; Just passing along info that may be useful to someone looking for one used as this might be a viable option. These likely do not have the 3D/XT32 upgrade so you would need to spend another US$1K on top to get it up to date.

http://www.dakmart.com/p6501/DENON-AVP-A1HDCI-AUDIO-VIDEO-PROCESSOR-AUTH-DEALR-W-WTY/product_info.html
post #23206 of 25955
hehe reading threads like these where people start jabbering along about jitter....just have look over to my rega p9

and as it says inside the p9 psu box

THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE "THANG" ... THERE WILL BE NO JITTER OR UP-SAMPLING HERE **** WITH THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE...

ah yes vinyl...if nothing else you dont get vinyl fans "jabbering along about jitter" hehe
post #23207 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

hehe reading threads like these where people start jabbering along about jitter....just have look over to my rega p9
and as it says inside the p9 psu box
THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE "THANG" ... THERE WILL BE NO JITTER OR UP-SAMPLING HERE **** WITH THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE...
ah yes vinyl...if nothing else you dont get vinyl fans "jabbering along about jitter" hehe

Analog jitter comes in a variety of flavors. The most troublesome is when I slip a record out of its sleeve and attempt to manipulate it from the sleeve onto the deck without dropping it. Then, when I lift the needle at the end I can only hope I am paying attention so I don't "jitter" the tonearm and break the needle. smile.gif
post #23208 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

hehe reading threads like these where people start jabbering along about jitter....just have look over to my rega p9
and as it says inside the p9 psu box
THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE "THANG" ... THERE WILL BE NO JITTER OR UP-SAMPLING HERE **** WITH THE REGA TOTAL ANALOG GROOVE...
ah yes vinyl...if nothing else you dont get vinyl fans "jabbering along about jitter" hehe

Exept if the recording was digital or remastered all the jitter and up sampling problems forever stamped into your little black grooves smile.gif

Daniel.
post #23209 of 25955
Thank goodness then that I still own many of the original Sheffield Lab direct to disc cuts (showing my age here) ...no digital for them smile.gif.

These discs still give many modern digital recordings a real "run for their money"biggrin.gif
post #23210 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Thank goodness then that I still own many of the original Sheffield Lab direct to disc cuts (showing my age here) ...no digital for them smile.gif.
These discs still give many modern digital recordings a real "run for their money"biggrin.gif

you too? Yes, those & MFSL are still part of my prized collection, too smile.gif

I had to replace one of my 2 SL Harry James LP's about 8-9 yrs ago, found one in great condition on ebay, snapped it up. Mine had rotted from too much Permastat liquid on it & too long in its plastic sleeve.

Those SL & MFSL discs were some of the best! Nice to see there are more luddites floating around, sometimes I get lonely in the Pioneer threads with all the talk of files, media streamers & computer audio biggrin.gif
post #23211 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Thank goodness then that I still own many of the original Sheffield Lab direct to disc cuts (showing my age here) ...no digital for them smile.gif.
These discs still give many modern digital recordings a real "run for their money"biggrin.gif
I'm always on the lookout for those and the original Parlophones of the Beatles from the 60's.
post #23212 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post


Those SL & MFSL discs were some of the best! Nice to see there are more luddites floating around, sometimes I get lonely in the Pioneer threads with all the talk of files, media streamers & computer audio biggrin.gif

Well you are always welcome to visit we have more than a few vinyl people on this thread, i guess it fit with the avg age of the avp owners.

Daniel.
post #23213 of 25955
There are still a number of web sites that show that they have many of the original Shefield collection for sale, sometimes they are a bit pricy but at least they can stil be purchased either new or used.

Unfortunately Shefield Lab only carries CD versions of the original masters and has no links to other re-sellers.
post #23214 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Well you are always welcome to visit we have more than a few vinyl people on this thread, i guess it fit with the avg age of the avp owners.
Daniel.

Hey, no age discrimination! tongue.gif I'm 37, but do have a Rega P9 hooked up to my AVP. I don't get to enjoy it as often as I'd like. But it does sound nice!
post #23215 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Hey, no age discrimination! tongue.gif I'm 37, but do have a Rega P9 hooked up to my AVP. I don't get to enjoy it as often as I'd like. But it does sound nice!

So you consider 37 a youngster. Maybe its just me maybe because i work with so many people in their 20's and tell them stories on how the Internet was when they where either not born yet or very young that i always think people on these forums are probably in their 20's too. I should have known better the avp/poa are not cheap and i guess you must have some disposable income that comes with age but i was kinda shocked to hear some of the ages posted somehow not knowing or having seen many of you fill in the blanks and somehow that never works correctly smile.gif

We could almost have discussions not if we can hear jitter but move on to tell stories at what age you starting loosing that capability smile.gif

Daniel.
post #23216 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

So you consider 37 a youngster. Maybe its just me maybe because i work with so many people in their 20's and tell them stories on how the Internet was when they where either not born yet or very young that i always think people on these forums are probably in their 20's too. I should have known better the avp/poa are not cheap and i guess you must have some disposable income that comes with age but i was kinda shocked to hear some of the ages posted somehow not knowing or having seen many of you fill in the blanks and somehow that never works correctly smile.gif
We could almost have discussions not if we can hear jitter but move on to tell stories at what age you starting loosing that capability smile.gif
Daniel.

Does it count that I was 34 when I got the AVP originally? HAHAHA

I think you've got a point, though. Not many younger people are into HiFi, or maybe their financial priorities point them elsewhere. I'm still from the generation who lusted after all the cool stuff in each issue of Stereo Review mag, and anxiously awaited each Crutchfield catalog for the latest surround sound gear smile.gif
post #23217 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I have a question for you experts out there:
I redid my room and went from 5.1 to 7.2 and now have added wides too.
I sometimes like to listen to 2 channel sources in Dolby ProLogic II mode and since I have now made my system 7.2 I am listening to PLIIx but don't like my 2 channel stuff coming at me from behind. I do have separate amps for each 2 channel pair so I can trigger the rear surrounds off when listening to certain sources/surround formats but I am wondering if I am defeating anything when I do this. If Audyssey and PLIIx are assuming I have back surrounds and I have them off I am wondering if something is getting routed to them which means I am missing these streams since they might be sending streams to them that normally would be going to other channels.
Alternately, does turning the wides off when it is steering streams to them mean I am missing some critical streams that would normally be routed elsewhere; To the front mains for instance?
I looked to see if there was an option for plain-jane PLII but didn't see it in the AVP menus. I see THX Pro Logic which is a 5.2 format but don't know how this compares to PL and PLII. Am listening in this mode right now.

Shouldn't make any difference as it takes two channel info and synthesizes the other channels from that, should't be loosing any "true" info by turning those channels off.
post #23218 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

My last post made me think that it might be worthwhile asking this question to the group:
Have you configured your BluRay player to bitstream your audio?
that is, elected to not hear 'menu sounds'?
If you still hear 'bloop, bloop' when messing with Bluray menus, you might now be bitstreaming.
Here's how to check if you are getting the 'real deal' on the avp
Press Menu, then select info, then audio input. It will show you the current inputs format.
if it's MCH Input, and you know the BR has a TrueHD or DTS-MA track, then you're not set up right (unless you have DL4).

Always bitstream.
post #23219 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Hey, no age discrimination! tongue.gif I'm 37, but do have a Rega P9 hooked up to my AVP. I don't get to enjoy it as often as I'd like. But it does sound nice!

Nice combo - there are a couple of us AVP owners on this thread that also have the P9.
post #23220 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLA View Post

Shouldn't make any difference as it takes two channel info and synthesizes the other channels from that, should't be loosing any "true" info by turning those channels off.

I wonder what that THX Pro Logic option is all about - is it the old, original Pro Logic (that has been around for years)? Hard to fathom they would still bundle that old format into a modern piece of gear.
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