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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 798

post #23911 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Hi,
Just to let you know i am convinced there is a weird software bug in the upgraded units. Yesterday my center signal dropped about 20dB in signal. We had this after a the upgraded and a reset solved it (to about 2dB) and the unit has been fine for months until now. I know others have had this too and the reset helped.
I checked all kinds of things like rerouting signals to other boards and excluding as much as i can and i doubt its hardware since if you compensate all sounds fine. So i reset the unit several time and each time the problem returned but too a different level (very weird).
I ended up having to push the center channel (bridged) to +4dB so have enough range but it should be at -6dB since its bridged. The fact that its 10dB also makes me think its a bug.
So keep your eyes out for this and check your levels using the internal test signals every few weeks to catch it.
Daniel.


Whoa wait a minute here. Center channel being bridged means that poa"s center channel is 6 db higher than the other non bridged channels. If the others L, R , are bridged too then you should not have this difference. That from amplification point of view.
Now we come to speakers sensitivity , impedance and room placement.
As you know a different speaker has different sensitivity. Also a 4ohms speaker behaves differently than a 8 ohm one. In a 4ohm load poa will pump 500w , (bridged, whereas in a 8 ohm load will pump 300w.
Now let"s go to room gain. If the L, R speakers are placed relatively close to a corner , then they get a number of extra amplification due to the corner, whereas the center will probably not. Not to mention that center speakers most of the time are less sensitive.
So we have , actually i have, a problem understanding your " theory" of 20db drop in the center channel. Could you please explain your thoughts?



John.
post #23912 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Whoa wait a minute here. Center channel being bridged means that poa"s center channel is 6 db higher than the other non bridged channels. If the others L, R , are bridged too then you should not have this difference. That from amplification point of view.
Now we come to speakers sensitivity , impedance and room placement.
As you know a different speaker has different sensitivity. Also a 4ohms speaker behaves differently than a 8 ohm one. In a 4ohm load poa will pump 500w , (bridged, whereas in a 8 ohm load will pump 300w.
Now let"s go to room gain. If the L, R speakers are placed relatively close to a corner , then they get a number of extra amplification due to the corner, whereas the center will probably not. Not to mention that center speakers most of the time are less sensitive.
So we have , actually i have, a problem understanding your " theory" of 20db drop in the center channel. Could you please explain your thoughts?
John.

Its simple yes both 3 fronts are bridged so normally they would be about -6dB, There is some differences but the center and fronts match well so for years i always had the same result in fact before this 'drop' it was -6, -4, -7 for my 3 fronts. Yesterday i had to push the centre to +10dB to compensate both using the vu meters on the POA and using a dB meter.

After a few resets the difference dropped and +4.5dB was enough still a difference of 8.5dB from the day before without any logical reason. I agree if i would have changed something in my setup i might be overlooking something but i don't think i have but if anyone has a idea i am open to ideas.

Maybe 20dB was a little much but without any logic i had to push it (before the reset) from -4dB to +10db thats 14dB.

Daniel.
post #23913 of 25955
Ok after daniel"s explanation and clarification, does any one else have the same problem?
I"m talking one of the upgraded avp owners?



Anyone?
post #23914 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Ok after daniel"s explanation and clarification, does any one else have the same problem?
I"m talking one of the upgraded avp owners?
Anyone?

I am upgraded and using all balanced outputs from the AVP driving Genelec's and have not heard any issues with my center channel level,or any other channel level.
post #23915 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Yes and yes biggrin.gif. The video processing in the Oppo players is excellent. Since I'm a beta tester for Oppo, you might consider me a bit biased, but the reviews that are out there speak for themselves. That said, if using it with the AVP, I'd suggest going with the Oppo BDP-103, use HDMI for everything, and put the $700 savings into something else. Even though the BDP-105 analog outputs are excellent, the use of room correction is more important, so sending a digital signal into the AVP makes more sense than using the analog outputs.

You are probably right and its all so good, I'm probably splitting hairs..... However, the difference between the two using pure direct is noticeable in my setup. The bass definitely sounds better coming straight from the Oppo XLR connections into the AVP vs HDMI. Overall sound is a bit warmer/fuller sounding. I'll kick in the XT32 for the next testing round. Guess I need to use Stereo mode for that. SJ
post #23916 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

I am upgraded and using all balanced outputs from the AVP driving Genelec's and have not heard any issues with my center channel level,or any other channel level.

Same here. Driving all my channels balanced to QSC amps and no sound problems. Since the upgrace, the only problem I'm having is occasional HDMI comunication problems between the preamp and my Panasonic TH-65f9uk, which has dvi inputs.Probably time to convince my wife its time for a new plasma or led.smile.gif
post #23917 of 25955
NEW OLD TOPIC

I am about to set up my new media room after 2 years down time. I had my AVP upgraded and have put wiring in the walls for just about any speaker combination the AVP can support. I now have to decide if I am going to use width or height channels with Audyssey DSX and/or Dolby height channels for Iix.

I know this has been discussed before but now that people have had a chance to live with upgraded AVPs I would like to ask who is using DSX? Do you prefer height or width channels--pity we can't have both. And who has tried with Dolby height solution? Which do you like better? Do they add anything much to the theater experience?

Is it possible to set up a system with Audyssey width speakers and have the AVP configured such that I can switch to Iix height speakers? I am going to be using only 1 sub-out channel so I have the extra channel to work with.

Basically I would like to get those of you who have been using 9.1 and 11.1 modes (or variations) with new height and width speakers to tell us how it has worked out. I need to figure out how to configure my system and your experience can be my guide since I have never heard any of these new features.

One more thing, I could care less about surround A and B. My set-up is a movie/TV system.

Thanks.
post #23918 of 25955
hi,

Thanks all for reporting back. I can only say weird things are happening with my setup. Ill look into it more tonight but for now consider it just my machine.

Daniel.
post #23919 of 25955
This question might look a bit silly, i am comparing a Denon Set that costs €16000 Euros to a Pioneer SC-LX90 that costs €5000 Euros.
But price isn't everything sometimes....

In terms of movies because i am a Home Theater guy will the Denon produce a better sound than the Pioneer? The Pioneer SC-LX90 has the advantage to have the "old" AC3, the Denon cannot play AC Soundtracks from Laserdisc.

But i can always connect an AC3 Demulator or buy an older Denon Processor with AC3....Don't know if it's possible to connect 2 Processors to an Amplifier....rolleyes.gif
post #23920 of 25955
Obviously you mean ac3 rf in, that older sets used to have..
I"m not sure if this can be done with the new prepro"s .
But as far i can remember some pioneer Ld players had a coaxial dig out as well. Im not sure though.
Apart from that , i don:t see where those two machines avp-suzano , can be compared. Avp is a fully balanced prepro, whereas suzano is a integrated av amp. They have some commonalities , but apart from that , they are totally different machines.
post #23921 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

NEW OLD TOPIC
I am about to set up my new media room after 2 years down time. I had my AVP upgraded and have put wiring in the walls for just about any speaker combination the AVP can support. I now have to decide if I am going to use width or height channels with Audyssey DSX and/or Dolby height channels for Iix.
I know this has been discussed before but now that people have had a chance to live with upgraded AVPs I would like to ask who is using DSX? Do you prefer height or width channels--pity we can't have both. And who has tried with Dolby height solution? Which do you like better? Do they add anything much to the theater experience?
Is it possible to set up a system with Audyssey width speakers and have the AVP configured such that I can switch to Iix height speakers? I am going to be using only 1 sub-out channel so I have the extra channel to work with.
Basically I would like to get those of you who have been using 9.1 and 11.1 modes (or variations) with new height and width speakers to tell us how it has worked out. I need to figure out how to configure my system and your experience can be my guide since I have never heard any of these new features.
One more thing, I could care less about surround A and B. My set-up is a movie/TV system.
Thanks.

I'm using WIDES and it is great for movies - not so much for music. I find that my front left and rights to a pretty good job with music for a wide soundstage as it is and the wides seem to be redundant. However, for movies with so much coming from the center channel, it definitely adds to the left and right sides of the screen AND when a scene pans around the room, it is pretty darn realistic. If you have a narrow but tall room, I would think the heights would be the way to go. And, placement of wides can be an issue too depending on furniture, room layout, etc..

Can't address the heights VS wides issue. My front l/r are already 5 feet tall, in a room with 8 foot ceilings, so I haven't felt the need to experiment with heights.
post #23922 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by djdmt View Post

That didn't work. Neo:x still won't turn on.

Perhaps if you posted some screen shots and gave more details about what your configuration is, it might help. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. You should be able to select the music/sourround mode from the GUI. Depending on the input source, it will list your available choices and you can cycle through them. If you have run Audyseey and told it you had front heights/wides, then the AVP should reply back on the GUI with choices for surround modes,etc.. Note that what you see on the GUI will depend on the source being played - the choices available will change for different input sources (2 channel, MCH, etc..).
post #23923 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Obviously you mean ac3 rf in, that older sets used to have..
I"m not sure if this can be done with the new prepro"s .
But as far i can remember some pioneer Ld players had a coaxial dig out as well. Im not sure though.
Apart from that , i don:t see where those two machines avp-suzano , can be compared. Avp is a fully balanced prepro, whereas suzano is a integrated av amp. They have some commonalities , but apart from that , they are totally different machines.

I also feel that i am being a bit silly making this comparison, but in certain apsects it's something to discuss...

If we drive the POA by Bi-Wiring to get 300w per channel in 5.1 and if we connect a 6th channel on the Rear Center, that channel cannot be Bi-wired right? That channel i guess stays with only 140watts output...
post #23924 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The POA is really designed such that bridging is a good thing. And in bridged mode, the POA is fully balanced. I'm bridging the front 3 speakers and then running the sides and surrounds with just 1 amp channel each with absolutely no issues (with B&W Matrix 800 series speakers).

Same as my AVP/POA setup, fronts are Focal Electra 1037BE with Focal Electra CC all three bridged then the other 4 channels going to focal surrounds SR1000BE which have 2 speakers 2 tweeters in 1 enclosure for a 7.1 system. Have had this setup since day 1 which is many years.

Highly recommended is a Cool Components fan array the amp runs really damn hot with just normal ventilation. http://www.discounthomeautomation.com/Cool-Components-Dual-Fan-Cooling-System-for-Full-Sized-Components-CCCPCC2FN

After I added this above which I also have ontop of my AVR-5308CI (bedroom) receiver the temps went from 140-160'F down to around 100'F huge difference and selectable settings for how much you need the air moved, I have it on second to lowest and don't even hear the fans with volume muted. 4 yrs using these fans and have had zero issues with any noise from them appears they use very high quality long lasting fans.
Edited by pentium7 - 11/26/12 at 8:28am
post #23925 of 25955
I think that the Denon AVP-A1HDA will produce even better sound combined with Mcintosh.
I am thinking that instead of the Denon POA-A1HD, if combined with 2 MC601 for the Front Channels and the MC303 for the Rear and Center Channels will be better than the POA-A1HD.
Anyone has experience with this setup?

I am more into Home Theater....
post #23926 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

hi,
Thanks all for reporting back. I can only say weird things are happening with my setup. Ill look into it more tonight but for now consider it just my machine.
Daniel.

So some more research and i think my unit is broken frown.gif

But i would not mind all your ideas on what it might be, ill list what ive excluded sofar.

So yesterday i excepted the drop in output of the center channel. So i shocked to find after watching a f1 (sounded fine) like this that a few hours later when watching a movie the center sounded hot. So i checked the levels again and indeed somehow about 4.5dB was 'back'.

So today both my left and center channel have a problem, the left is off about 4dB and the center still about 15dB.

Now i checked the following

1) amp, by rerouting channels
2) speakers by using free assign and flipping left with right etc etc (and problem moves so speakers, amp, outputs have to be ok).
3) tested non-bridged
4) tested using rca out instead of balanced (excluding the whole xlr boards)
5) send the center signal to other speakers too, and then they are all 'low'
6) popped the unit open didn't see anything weird

It seems however i route it allways seems to be the center and left channel that seem off. But they seem to drift.

now i see 2 options :

1) its in the digital part, somehow the unit decides to lower these 2 channels
2) all the signals are first made analog before they are routes/switched this sound more true if indeed these channels are drifting.

Ill keep the unit on and see if they gain volume over time.

So anyone had this before on a pre amp ? could channels be drifting based on temperature and some compensation for it is not working ?

Daniel.
post #23927 of 25955
Do you still have warranty?
post #23928 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Do you still have warranty?

Well i got it in 2008 so no idea it did get the upgrade a few months back. But lets first find out what is wrong the unit has been stable for years but maybe something went wrong when it was in the shop or something.

My first goal is to nail down what is happening and then contact denon people with a detailed report so they have some idea. It seems a type of problem you want to diagnose with care or risk them not 'finding' it when its in for repear.

I think its drifting based on cold/heat look at these 2 results i made today, notice how the center should be about -6dB but when cold came in at +8.5 but when i tested/calibrated (and checked with dB meter) came in at +2dB when unit was warm it was +2dB it 'found' 6dB back.

26nov_cold
L -4.0
R -7.5
C +8.5
SW -2.5
SL +1.5
SR -1.0
SBL +0.5
SBR -2.0

26nov_hot
L -6.0
R -8.0
C +2.0
SW -3
SL -0.5
SR -1.5
SBL +0.5
SBR -1.5

Daniel.
post #23929 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

So some more research and i think my unit is broken frown.gif

Daniel, so sorry, this is a real bummer. But I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

... now i see 2 options :
1) its in the digital part, somehow the unit decides to lower these 2 channels
2) all the signals are first made analog before they are routes/switched this sound more true if indeed these channels are drifting.
Ill keep the unit on and see if they gain volume over time.
So anyone had this before on a pre amp ? could channels be drifting based on temperature and some compensation for it is not working ?
Daniel.

Option 1 seems weird to me, as a bug would probably be more consistent than this. Plus, it seems to happen only on your unit, and not in a predictable manner.

Option 2 is attractive, but more so because it could be a lose contact that is affected by heat. As you probably might guess, the attenuation level is a resistor ladder (analog), but digitally controlled. If the digital signals to go [up],[up],[up]... are somehow inconsistently received due to dodgy connections (affected by heat), then you could see how the 'analog' section is affecting the levels.

So I'd check the seating of the analog output boards in those two channels.

I hope that helps. This is a tough one.
Edited by JonFo - 11/26/12 at 3:41pm
post #23930 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Daniel, so sorry, this is a real bummer. But I'm sure you'll figure it out.
Option 1 seems weird to me, as a bug would probably be more consistent than this. Plus, it seems to happen only on your unit, and not in a predictable manner.
Option 2 is attractive, but more so because it could be a lose contact that is affected by heat. As you probably might guess, the attenuation level is a resistor ladder (analog), but digitally controlled. If the digital signals to go [up],[up],[up]... are somehow inconsistently received due to dodgy connections (affected by heat), then you could see how the 'analog' section is affecting the levels.
So I'd check the seating of the analog output boards in those two channels.
I hope that helps. This is a tough one.

Agreed, i somehow assumed all was digital before it hit the 'routing' part of the unit but i guess at some stage these signals are analog even if you say 'split' them to a second xlr output or rca or.. That is what kinda surprised me now that i think about it there are probably more parts where they have some attenuation for offsets and things before the last volume control.

One test isn't enough yet so ill test a few more days to see if its cold/warm related and before considering what next.

Daniel.
post #23931 of 25955
Sorry to hear of the problems with your AVP Daniel.

On another note, I placed my order for POA-A1HDCI #2 today through the AVS store. I'm supposedly getting the last one that Denon has in their warehouses in the USA, so once any remaining stock that any dealers happen to have is gone that's it. Once it arrives, I'll be able to used bridged channels for all 7 speakers, which will leave 6 channels available for future use.
post #23932 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Once it arrives, I'll be able to used bridged channels for all 7 speakers, which will leave 6 channels available for future use.
Why do you want to use bridged amps. Are you running into clipping?
post #23933 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Sorry to hear of the problems with your AVP Daniel.
On another note, I placed my order for POA-A1HDCI #2 today through the AVS store. I'm supposedly getting the last one that Denon has in their warehouses in the USA, so once any remaining stock that any dealers happen to have is gone that's it. Once it arrives, I'll be able to used bridged channels for all 7 speakers, which will leave 6 channels available for future use.


With the money you sent in 2 POA wasn't better to buy 2 MV601 for the Fronts and a 2 more MC's for the rears and center? Maybe it could take more time to afford but it's something that can be done by stages.
Don't get me wrong, this is just my opinion.
post #23934 of 25955
Probably you underestimate POA. It"s a 10 channels amp , which does 10x150/8 , 10x300/4 , and if you bridge all channels 5x300/8, 5x500/4 .
All channels can be bridged in pairs , but not neceserilly. That leaves you with many combinations at hand. Say 8 channels of 150w and 1 channel of 300w.Or 6 ch of 150w and 2 ch of 300w, and so on.
Probably he wouldn"t get anything more by going mac.
post #23935 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Agreed, i somehow assumed all was digital before it hit the 'routing' part of the unit but i guess at some stage these signals are analog even if you say 'split' them to a second xlr output or rca or.. That is what kinda surprised me now that i think about it there are probably more parts where they have some attenuation for offsets and things before the last volume control.
One test isn't enough yet so ill test a few more days to see if its cold/warm related and before considering what next.
Daniel.


I"m really sorry to read , this , but , if you want my opinion , you should take your unit in for check and repair , to theese guys who ded the upgrade. From what i remember they are quite knowledgeable of the avp.Right?
I only hope they won"t have to rewrite the hole programs into the eproms again. (it happened with a avc here , this is why i haven"t mine in for the upgrade yet)
No matter what you check , as you said there is this weird behavior in the center channel , and now in the left one too. It could also be a hw fault in the wiretapes within the amp from pcb to pcb , or anything. I suppose it needs time. Patiense.You "ll find out .
post #23936 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Probably you underestimate POA. It"s a 10 channels amp , which does 10x150/8 , 10x300/4 , and if you bridge all channels 5x300/8, 5x500/4 .
All channels can be bridged in pairs , but not neceserilly. That leaves you with many combinations at hand. Say 8 channels of 150w and 1 channel of 300w.Or 6 ch of 150w and 2 ch of 300w, and so on.
Probably he wouldn"t get anything more by going mac.

I did not understimate the POA, not at all, but you can compare it in a way, and another way you don't.
I love the POA in fact, but with the MC Setup i can get more power and i would dare to say cleaner....
post #23937 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I think that the Denon AVP-A1HDA will produce even better sound combined with Mcintosh.
I am thinking that instead of the Denon POA-A1HD, if combined with 2 MC601 for the Front Channels and the MC303 for the Rear and Center Channels will be better than the POA-A1HD.
Anyone has experience with this setup?
I am more into Home Theater....

I use the AVP with a McIntosh MC402 for front and 207 for center and surrounds. I would never change this config, it works so fine!
post #23938 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus2k View Post

I use the AVP with a McIntosh MC402 for front and 207 for center and surrounds. I would never change this config, it works so fine!

This is the point i was trying to tell. Did you tried it before with the POA?
Don't you think you go better with the MC, and you have more punch when you watch movies or hear music?
Besides there are no limitations, if it's an MC402, it delivers 400watts at 4,6 and 8 oms....
post #23939 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Why do you want to use bridged amps. Are you running into clipping?
Bridging the amps on the POA makes it fully balanced (for each pair of channels that are bridged).

And going with the POA gives me a ton of flexibility to have anywhere between 10 channels (all pairs bridged) and 20 channels (all channels unbridged). I considered going with another brand of amp, such as Bryston or McIntosh, but since I already had a POA, any of those options would have been a LOT more expensive than adding a 2nd POA and the POA is a pretty darn nice amp (that had replaced 3 Krell KAV series amps, one of which needed $$$ repairs for a bad channel which is what prompted the purchase of the first POA), even if it doesn't say McIntosh or something else on the front wink.gif.
Edited by gsr - 11/27/12 at 5:26am
post #23940 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Why do you want to use bridged amps. Are you running into clipping?
Why? would this be the only reason for bgidging an amp?
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