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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 799

post #23941 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

I"m really sorry to read , this , but , if you want my opinion , you should take your unit in for check and repair , to theese guys who ded the upgrade. From what i remember they are quite knowledgeable of the avp.Right?
I only hope they won"t have to rewrite the hole programs into the eproms again. (it happened with a avc here , this is why i haven"t mine in for the upgrade yet)
No matter what you check , as you said there is this weird behavior in the center channel , and now in the left one too. It could also be a hw fault in the wiretapes within the amp from pcb to pcb , or anything. I suppose it needs time. Patiense.You "ll find out .

I fully agree the only reason i am doing more testing is to make it easer for the people who need to fix it by having a clear idea what the problem is. The second thing is indeed who should do the repear and i am indeed thinking about the tuning/upgrading place (CineMike) simply because i know they can probably fix the part that is broken instead of just swapping out a whole board. Since its a come/go type of problem having a clear idea on how to test for it is important since i have to drive to a different country 2 times.

Daniel.
post #23942 of 25955
Oops yeah , i forgot they are based in germany.
As for the hw repair i think the most quick process is indeed to swap boards or board , whatever . It will take much more time to invistigate even a single board , than a single swap , if they have it available.
post #23943 of 25955
I need to buy a new mouse, this is a double post sorry.
post #23944 of 25955
I would never repair an AVP like that, i would order a board change.
it's like you having a Lamborghini and ask a guy to repair engine injectors instead of replacing them.
post #23945 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I would never repair an AVP like that, i would order a board change.
it's like you having a Lamborghini and ask a guy to repair engine injectors instead of replacing them.

Well to each his own, there are about 25 boards in the avp which would you replace ?. Ill leave it to the experts to find out what is wrong and let them advice what todo. Second thing you assume is that all boards are still easy available and that also might not be the case since the avp is end of life. So thats why ill try to provide as much information to the engineers that i can so they can pinpoint the problem and replace the parts that are needed on this almost 5 year old machine.

Daniel.
post #23946 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

I would never repair an AVP like that, i would order a board change.
it's like you having a Lamborghini and ask a guy to repair engine injectors instead of replacing them.

why not? if the "broken" piece can be identified and fixed easily, it's rather pointless to go replacing entire boards... it's not like it's that hard to solder, even though it's a bit of a lost skill in today's world...

it's a piece of electronics... a nice one, but it's just electronics... there's no reason to go overboard...
post #23947 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

why not? if the "broken" piece can be identified and fixed easily, it's rather pointless to go replacing entire boards... it's not like it's that hard to solder, even though it's a bit of a lost skill in today's world...
it's a piece of electronics... a nice one, but it's just electronics... there's no reason to go overboard...

In this case it makes even more sense since this shop does tuning. Now whatever you might think of the con's or pro's of that. Ive seen several AVP's and POA's stripped down to the smallest parts there. They replace about 600 parts if you do the AVP+POA max tuning so they know how to solder parts inside the units.

Now back to topic, I now know that its related to temperature. Not 1 but 6 channels (my guess) are effected some more than others so its probably a chip/board that handles something for 6 channels. I know its not the amp, xlr parts, rca since the effect moves when i free assign.

I decided to leave the AVP on and measure over time, my guess its probably best to leave it on now to keep it stable but here are the result :


28nov_cold
L +12 (broken)
R -5
C +12 (broken)
SW -2.5
SL +12 (broken)
SR +8.5 (broken)
SBL +7 (broken)
SBR -1.5

28nov_30min
L -5 (fixed)
R -7.5
C +7.5 (little better)
SW -3
SL +1.5 (fixed)
SR -1 (fixed)
SBL +1 (fixed)
SBR -1.5

28nov_12h
L -5.5 (fixed)
R -7.5
C +3 (much better, still 10db off)
SW -3
SL +0.5 (fixed)
SR -2 (fixed)
SBL 0 (fixed)
SBR -2

28nov_24h
L -4.5
R -7.0
C +4
SW -2.5
SL +0.5
SR -0.5
SBL 0.5
SBR -1

Next step is writing a report and mailing the workshop frown.gif

Daniel.
post #23948 of 25955
Just bought an Apple TV. Not sure why, don't do much streaming. Anyway, would I get better performance connecting it to my AVP via HDMI or the HDMI in on my Oppo 103?
post #23949 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

Just bought an Apple TV. Not sure why, don't do much streaming. Anyway, would I get better performance connecting it to my AVP via HDMI or the HDMI in on my Oppo 103?

Whichever has the better video chip.
post #23950 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

Why? would this be the only reason for bridging an amp?
Not sure if this the only reason, but it is one of the obvious reasons that come to mind. Can you list any others? Lower damping factor and higher distortion are other results, but hardly good reasons to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Bridging the amps on the POA makes it fully balanced (for each pair of channels that are bridged).
What does that do for sound quality in a power amp? Is it worth the tradeoffs mentioned above?
Quote:
the POA is a pretty darn nice amp
That it is. Part of why I'm wondering why you want to bi-amp bridge it.
Edited by Roger Dressler - 11/29/12 at 8:49pm
post #23951 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That it is. Part of why I'm wondering why you want to bi-amp it.
I'm not bi-amping it, but bridging it. If you look at the flow charts Audioholics shows for the AVP / POA combo (here), which I believe came from Denon, you'll notice that they show 2 POA's with all channels bridged, which at least implies that that's considered the optimal configuration for the AVP / POA combo. I've had the front 3 channels bridged for a while now and driving the side and surround speakers without bridging, but with similar speakers. The goal is to provide equal power to all speakers.
post #23952 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I'm not bi-amping it, but bridging it.
Sorry, my brain fart. I meant bridge.
Quote:
If you look at the flow charts Audioholics shows for the AVP / POA combo (here), which I believe came from Denon, you'll notice that they show 2 POA's with all channels bridged, which at least implies that that's considered the optimal configuration for the AVP / POA combo.
Well, I'm sure they are happy to sell you another amp, whether you need it or not. I'm just trying to figure out why you need it.
Quote:
I've had the front 3 channels bridged for a while now and driving the side and surround speakers without bridging, but with similar speakers. The goal is to provide equal power to all speakers.
What has "power" got to do with anything? Unless the amp clips, what does having untapped voltage swing do for the sound?

Let's consider that a more powerful amplifier has more muscle. A bigger power supply and a lower output impedance due to more output devices paralleled. This is what controls the speaker cone. But when two amps are bridged, yes the "power" numbers on paper look bigger. But that is misleading. There are twice as many output devices, but they are in series, not parallel. So instead of the added muscle we normally associate with higher power amps, the output impedance is increased in bridge mode. Doubled. Unless the single-ended amp has insufficient voltage swing, it controls the speaker better than the bridged mode.

So I'm just wondering...is there something else I'm missing?
post #23953 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

... There are twice as many output devices, but they are in series, not parallel. So instead of the added muscle we normally associate with higher power amps, the output impedance is increased in bridge mode. Doubled. Unless the single-ended amp has insufficient voltage swing, it controls the speaker better than the bridged mode.
So I'm just wondering...is there something else I'm missing?

The POA has nearly identical output impedance in bridged or normal modes:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/denon-poa-a1hdci/pao-a1hdci-measurements

Unlike many 'bridge' techniques, this one is balanced (parallel not serial), so one 'half' of the bridge handles positive phase, the other negative.

As for why, well many speakers need the extra headroom 300wpc can provide. No such thing as too much power in my book ;-)
post #23954 of 25955
Speaking of streaming, I just had one of the "DUH" moments eek.gif

A while back I installed DenOnOff on my iPhone and tried it a bit, and found it to be pretty buggy and unstable. Yesterday I was playing around with my network and decided to try to stabilize it by going to static IP's and that actually helped. For some unknown reason I decided to try the DenOnOff before I upgraded the iOS on my iPhone, and after changing the IP address to what I had set it to in the AVP, I happened to push a button that I hadn't tried before, and that's the "DUH" moment.

I hit the Net/USB input for the first time and up came a similar menu as the AVP gives you showing network options, I was able to go into my NAS and surf albums and play whatever tracks I wanted, and the app has a page up & page down feature, which I don't think the AVP has, so I could scan the list much faster. It's not the best streaming interface by a mile, but it allows me to listen to my bit-perfect FLAC files without having to crank on my PJ or get close enough to the AVP's display to read it. I also doesn't seem to freeze up at all when using the page up/down feature, so way better than using the AVP on board menu. ( I recall the Denon being pretty slow trying to navigate the list.)

Now I wonder if anyone has come up with a similar app for Denon that has album art etc.?
Edited by rnrgagne - 12/2/12 at 10:05am
post #23955 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoy1999 View Post

Hi All,
Sorry to just jump in here, but I have a chance to get the Denon AVP-A1HDCI with the upgrade installed (3D, XT32, etc...) at a pretty reasonable price ($2,660) and wanted to get some opinions. I currently have the Marantz av7005. If the SQ and video are better I think it might be worth it. Currently have a Parasound Halo A 31 amp, Def Tech STS Supertowers, Mythos nine center, Oppo 95, and the av7005. Probably around 70% TV and HT vs music.
Thank you.

Hi All,

In case anyone was wondering or interested, I finally got the AVP (upgraded) hooked up. It had to be send out to the manufacture for service, so it took a few weeks, with Thanksgiving, to get it back. So far, I'm very happy with the SQ and XT32, definitely an improvement over the av7005 I think. Haven't notice any difference in the video quality between the AVP and av7005, although it does seem a little slower when switching channels via comcast drv box. Thanks.
post #23956 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoy1999 View Post

Hi All,
In case anyone was wondering or interested, I finally got the AVP (upgraded) hooked up. It had to be send out to the manufacture for service, so it took a few weeks, with Thanksgiving, to get it back. So far, I'm very happy with the SQ and XT32, definitely an improvement over the av7005 I think. Haven't notice any difference in the video quality between the AVP and av7005, although it does seem a little slower when switching channels via comcast drv box. Thanks.

$2600 with the upgrade. You seem to be a lucky person can you buy some lottery tickets for me smile.gif

Very good deal sir. The last known new price in europe was 8999 euro + 1200 euro upgrade. Thats $13200 ....

Daniel.
post #23957 of 25955
Correct i second that. I still haven"t taken in mine for the upgrade. They are still stucked with a avc that refuses to get the files. mad.gif
post #23958 of 25955
Hi everybody,

Oke, just bought a AVP 3D together with a 4010UD. Now I am playing around with the Dlink4. When I play a BlueRay it works fine (three lights) but when i'am playing a CD then the third light does not lightup. Is this how is should be.

Or do I have to switch the AVP and the 4010UD, to Dlink3. Or is the anti-jitter working without the light on?

I have the Dlink indicator light up on the AVP, but when the third blue light comes on the 4020UD the Dlink indicator on the AVP goes off. Now the moment I play a CD, like you said the third light on the 4010UD stays off but the indicator on the AVP keeps burning.

Is this the way it should be?

SoundofMind said:

That is true for my A100, it does not say DenonLink on the AVR FPD for BluRay, just 3 lights on the player. Two lights on the player and Denon link light on the AVR for CD, SACD. You could confirm in the AVP thread.


anybody can confirm ?

thx

Alex
post #23959 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Sorry, my brain fart. I meant bridge.
Well, I'm sure they are happy to sell you another amp, whether you need it or not. I'm just trying to figure out why you need it.
What has "power" got to do with anything? Unless the amp clips, what does having untapped voltage swing do for the sound?
Let's consider that a more powerful amplifier has more muscle. A bigger power supply and a lower output impedance due to more output devices paralleled. This is what controls the speaker cone. But when two amps are bridged, yes the "power" numbers on paper look bigger. But that is misleading. There are twice as many output devices, but they are in series, not parallel. So instead of the added muscle we normally associate with higher power amps, the output impedance is increased in bridge mode. Doubled. Unless the single-ended amp has insufficient voltage swing, it controls the speaker better than the bridged mode.
So I'm just wondering...is there something else I'm missing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers



I wouldn"t say that bridged amps are connected in series. Only differential . Some times if i remember correctly the two are completely inversed. + for the negative sine and - for the positive sine. Apart from that there is nowhere a series connection.
post #23960 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridged_and_paralleled_amplifiers
I wouldn"t say that bridged amps are connected in series. Only differential . Some times if i remember correctly the two are completely inversed. + for the negative sine and - for the positive sine. Apart from that there is nowhere a series connection.
All the current in both amp sections and the load is identical -- not only that, it is the very same current path. That is evidence they are connected in series.

If you feel better not using the word "series" that's fine with me. Differential seems so esoteric a word, but they are actually equivalent as far as how the load sees it. I was trying to illustrate the contrast between what is normally understood to be a "more powerful amplifier" (the referenced article describes paralleling two amps, which is essentially what happens when an amp maker goes from an amp with 4 output devices to a bigger version with 8 devices and a beefed up the power supply: >>In this mode the available output CURRENT is doubled but the output voltage remains the same. The output impedance of the pair is now halved.<< This is where one gets the sense of control that bigger amps can deliver, and why they can easily drive lower impedance speakers with no sense of effort. The same amps arranged as bridged will not perform the same, where the source impedance feeding the load is the sum of both amps. That means damping factor is cut in half. It also means the amp's noise floor is up 3 dB, but usually that's not an issue once the preamp is running as that will swamp out the amp's noise.

BTW, do not ever try to run two separate amps in parallel as they describe. That will create smoke or popped fuses, or both.

So now that we're all on the same page regarding the operational aspects of bridge amps, do you still feel there is a compelling reason to do it?
post #23961 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

...
Now I wonder if anyone has come up with a similar app for Denon that has album art etc.?

Static IPs are definitely the way to go for stability.

As for controllers, looks at an App called 'MediaConnect', it does the full DLNA suite of features, including the ability to pick content from a DLNA-compatible server, and directing the AVP to play it back as a DLNA-Renderer. It was a bit flaky last year, but much better now.

there are quite a few others I'm sure. They keyword to look for is DLNA controller.

I have yet to find the ideal DLNA app that let me browse the server contents with cover art and all that and that then lets me direct the AVP to play back the selected tracks or playlist. But I have not checked them all out. So I'm also interested in others feedback here.
post #23962 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Static IPs are definitely the way to go for stability.
As for controllers, looks at an App called 'MediaConnect', it does the full DLNA suite of features, including the ability to pick content from a DLNA-compatible server, and directing the AVP to play it back as a DLNA-Renderer. It was a bit flaky last year, but much better now.
there are quite a few others I'm sure. They keyword to look for is DLNA controller.
I have yet to find the ideal DLNA app that let me browse the server contents with cover art and all that and that then lets me direct the AVP to play back the selected tracks or playlist. But I have not checked them all out. So I'm also interested in others feedback here.

I bypass the interface in the AVP: I use my Oppo -93 and I have a small 7" LCD connected to the composite port on the AVP. I am thinking about getting a bigger LCD because it is hard to see if you are more than 3 feet away. All my music files on my NAS are in FLAC format so I have album art, tracks, etc., displaying on the small LCD.

As a bonus, the small LCD also provides the GUI to the AVP for ALL input sources so even when my plasma is off (vinyl listening, cd's, etc.) I can have access to the AVP's innerds.

Some may balk at the Oppo's streaming abilities but I happen to like it for my needs and I don't have to use the clunky, awkward interface on the AVP.
post #23963 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Static IPs are definitely the way to go for stability.
As for controllers, looks at an App called 'MediaConnect', it does the full DLNA suite of features, including the ability to pick content from a DLNA-compatible server, and directing the AVP to play it back as a DLNA-Renderer. It was a bit flaky last year, but much better now.
there are quite a few others I'm sure. They keyword to look for is DLNA controller.
I have yet to find the ideal DLNA app that let me browse the server contents with cover art and all that and that then lets me direct the AVP to play back the selected tracks or playlist. But I have not checked them all out. So I'm also interested in others feedback here.

So if I read that correctly, the MediaConnect doesn't do cover art?
I think the DenOnOff is close to what I want for audio streaming, and I suppose it would be even easier to navigate if it were on an iPad ot tablet. I seem to recall another iPhone app that had a more detailed GUI than DenOnOff, but can't remember what it was called.

On another note, I tried to get into the AVP with web control typing in the new static IP address I gave it, and I couldn't. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or how to do this with a manually entered static IP?
post #23964 of 25955
I use dune hd duo media player for my files and some movies ofcourse. Dune is ethernet connected via a switch hub to the main pc - server in my office , so are avp , a1ud, and stream whatever i want. The main difference is that i have a 27" samsung monitor on top of the rack so i can read sice i"m 2-3 meters away biggrin.gif:D
Edited by jomark911 - 12/3/12 at 9:10am
post #23965 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas25 View Post

Hi everybody,
Oke, just bought a AVP 3D together with a 4010UD. Now I am playing around with the Dlink4. When I play a BlueRay it works fine (three lights) but when i'am playing a CD then the third light does not lightup. Is this how is should be.
Or do I have to switch the AVP and the 4010UD, to Dlink3. Or is the anti-jitter working without the light on?
I have the Dlink indicator light up on the AVP, but when the third blue light comes on the 4020UD the Dlink indicator on the AVP goes off. Now the moment I play a CD, like you said the third light on the 4010UD stays off but the indicator on the AVP keeps burning.
Is this the way it should be?
SoundofMind said:
That is true for my A100, it does not say DenonLink on the AVR FPD for BluRay, just 3 lights on the player. Two lights on the player and Denon link light on the AVR for CD, SACD. You could confirm in the AVP thread.

anybody can confirm ?
thx
Alex

I have owned the 4010 and now own the A100. The third blu light will ONLY light up with a Blu Ray disc. It indicates that the player is clock locked to the AVP. This is used to reduce the data jitter of the HDMI audio data. Blu ray audio data is not passed over DL. The AVP will switch to DL3 mode (no third blu light) when you play any other type of disc.

The only problem that I have with my AVP is that once it is set to auto for HDMI input mode, it needs this in order to activate DL4, it always resets itself to HDMI digital input mode when I play any other disc. This means every time I want to use DL4 I need to set the HDMI input mode to Auto again. Have you seen this issue?

So what you are seeing is right if I understand you correctly.
Edited by Digione - 12/3/12 at 6:08pm
post #23966 of 25955
I don"t think that avp reverts to dl3. The only switch you have for this function is in the players menu sel dl2,3,4. at least that"s how it is on my a1ud. When the third led lights up on the player , signal clock info passes through dl4 , audio passes through hdmi..
post #23967 of 25955
...
Edited by jomark911 - 12/4/12 at 12:07am
post #23968 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I bypass the interface in the AVP: I use my Oppo -93 and I have a small 7" LCD connected to the composite port on the AVP. I am thinking about getting a bigger LCD because it is hard to see if you are more than 3 feet away. All my music files on my NAS are in FLAC format so I have album art, tracks, etc., displaying on the small LCD.
As a bonus, the small LCD also provides the GUI to the AVP for ALL input sources so even when my plasma is off (vinyl listening, cd's, etc.) I can have access to the AVP's innerds.
Some may balk at the Oppo's streaming abilities but I happen to like it for my needs and I don't have to use the clunky, awkward interface on the AVP.

Heh, I also do something similar, I use FooBar2000 on my HTPC and feed 8ch audio over HDMI to the AVP. That lets me play my 30K+ set of CD tracks and my 5K+ set of HighRez tracks (from DVD-A and BluRay).
For display when using audio only, I have a secondary 21" monitor in the room near my seat. That way I can keep the PJ off, and jsut drive the AVP and HTPC via that secondary monitor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

So if I read that correctly, the MediaConnect doesn't do cover art?
I think the DenOnOff is close to what I want for audio streaming, and I suppose it would be even easier to navigate if it were on an iPad ot tablet. I seem to recall another iPhone app that had a more detailed GUI than DenOnOff, but can't remember what it was called.

Correct, no cover art in that app, and it's rather a mess in terms of UI, as it tries to do too much in one app. Ideally, one wants an app that:
  • Lets me pick a source DLNA server (like a NAS)
  • Let's me pick a target DLNA Renderer (like the AVP)
  • Pick albums or playlists and direct the renderer to play them

Picking using full meta-data and cover art is the nice-to-have here. But also the speed of a mobile talking to a NAS is going to be orders of magnitude faster than the clunky AVP UI.
But, you get the main benefit: the AVP is pulling and decoding the audio tracks for the most jitter-free playback quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

On another note, I tried to get into the AVP with web control typing in the new static IP address I gave it, and I couldn't. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong or how to do this with a manually entered static IP?

Works for me, just type in the IP address you gave it into the URL bar.

Try restarting the AVP. I've had the network interface stop working after a week or so, and rebooting (via the small power button) does the trick.
post #23969 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Heh, I also do something similar, I use FooBar2000 on my HTPC and feed 8ch audio over HDMI to the AVP. That lets me play my 30K+ set of CD tracks and my 5K+ set of HighRez tracks (from DVD-A and BluRay).

Just curious, what mode or modes to listen to primarily for your CD's (PLII, Direct, etc.)? I have been experimenting and I really like PLIIx with Audyssey FLAT for CDs. It seems to give them a warmer, richer tone. Always open to what others are doing. (I have the XT32 upgrade.) Thanks.
post #23970 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

I don"t think that avp reverts to dl3. The only switch you have for this function is in the players menu sel dl2,3,4. at least that"s how it is on my a1ud. When the third led lights up on the player , signal clock info passes through dl4 , audio passes through hdmi..

You are of course correct, the AVP will always remain in DL4 once selected. I should have simply said that it transferes the data over DL as in DL3 mode, not that it actually switches to DL3.
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