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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 805

post #24121 of 25965
How is the Denon AVP-A1HDA seen today in 2013....with units one the market like Datasat and ADA Cinema Reference that claim to have the "Pure" Cinema Sound.

Denon AVP + POA are one of a kind, at least in magazines, but are they in the same league of those that i mentioned?
post #24122 of 25965
I was also interested in ADA products some time ago. I only heard about Datasat but just after you mentioned it, checked their web site.

Well, I can not say anything about the sound and how stable they function, however, I think they target a different market, like the Crestron. My impression is, these products are more intended for serious home theater installations and installers doing the job, rather than 'look, daddy is bringing a new box home'. The Denon is - IMO - more 'living room' friendly.
Also, I have no idea about the prices but a 16 channel Trinnov EQ built into the ADA MACH IV, is already over 10,000 bucks, isn't it.

Personally and if money would not count, I would go for the ADA. But, as I already wrote, these units look for me more like semi-professional equipment, whereas a Denon AVP-A1 is more 'HiFi'.

I can't say more about the sound but neither ADA nor DATASAT look to me as if you could just hook them up to your other equipment and everything works. But I believe, they must be very good.

When I wrote, that the AVP-A1 is the best AV Pre-Amp I heard up to now, I meant the usual consumer electronics like Onkyo, Yamaha and other AVRs I know and owned.

And to answer your question: ADA and Datasat play in a different league than Denon in general.

Just my two cents...
Edited by Ganymed4 - 1/1/13 at 11:10am
post #24123 of 25965
You have to consider the law of diminishing returns, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean you get more for that dollar.
I seriuosly doubt there's much to be had in terms of audible improvement once you get to the level of the AVP, so it boils down to function IMO.
post #24124 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

I was also interested in ADA products some time ago. I only heard about Datasat but just after you mentioned it, checked their web site.
Well, I can not say anything about the sound and how stable they function, however, I think they target a different market, like the Crestron. My impression is, these products are more intended for serious home theater installations and installers doing the job, rather than 'look, daddy is bringing a new box home'. The Denon is - IMO - more 'living room' friendly.
Also, I have no idea about the prices but a 16 channel Trinnov EQ built into the ADA MACH IV, is already over 10,000 bucks, isn't it.
Personally and if money would not count, I would go for the ADA. But, as I already wrote, these units look for me more like semi-professional equipment, whereas a Denon AVP-A1 is more 'HiFi'.
I can't say more about the sound but neither ADA nor DATASAT look to me as if you could just hook them up to your other equipment and everything works. But I believe, they must be very good.
When I wrote, that the AVP-A1 is the best AV Pre-Amp I heard up to now, I meant the usual consumer electronics like Onkyo, Yamaha and other AVRs I know and owned.
And to answer your question: ADA and Datasat play in a different league than Denon in general.
Just my two cents...

Yes i believe so also.
The ADA Reference by the way it csts around $40000 USD....i take Home Cinema very seriosly but would't pay that for a Processor.
Come on it can be differences but are they so many that justifies that money?
DATASAT is another thing...at a cost of $18000, and with a good discount it can be bought for $14000 that gives alot to think....

ADA can have Trinnov, but Datasat also has Room Correction and so has Denon. Simply firmware....
post #24125 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

However, does anybody have an explanation, that the picture quality can improve, compared to my Onkyo Pre-Amp, even all video enhancers are turned off?
Happy new year, everybody!

The only thing I can think of is it might have something to do with the repeater/amplifier function of the AVP's HDMI board being better than the Onkyo's.

And I echo the Happy New Year to all as well !!!
post #24126 of 25965
I am going to use a new setup, and i was very very doubtful about the Pre and Amps, but i've decided to use the following setup:

- Denon AVP-A1HDA
- Mcintosh MC601 (2 Front Channels)
- Mcintosh MC303 (Center and Back Channels)
- Klipsch Palladium Set of Speakers 5.2.

My doubts were mainly because of DATASAT and their Amps, but it's too much sound and with Denon and Mcintosh married with Klipsch i believe the Cinema here at Home will be alot better than the public cinema on the area. LOL
post #24127 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You have to consider the law of diminishing returns, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean you get more for that dollar.
I seriuosly doubt there's much to be had in terms of audible improvement once you get to the level of the AVP, so it boils down to function IMO.

Well people say, that the Bryston SP3 is better in some means than the Denon. However, I completely agree to your point of view!
I was thinking about checking the new AV8801 but I could buy an AVP for the price of the Marantz and this decision was easy.

Even the AVP comes as a used unit like a real bargain, I do not see any other AV-Pre-amp having the same functionality as the AVP in this class. The Bryston SP3 was stripped intentionally by network functions and video functions to achieve better sound. It seems this worked, however, there is no streaming, no upscaling, even not a network connection and a small display.

Crestron, ADA and also the Datasat, are long-term investments and need a suitable environment - acoustically treated room and a rack etc. Then - I am sure - you can achieve results which are really top notch. But this costs a lot of money and the whole chain must fit - speakers, room etc.

The only alternative with a good room correction system, I could think of, is the Anthem Statement D2v. However, this unit is somehow on the same level as the Denon but not very wide spread. In Europe, where I live, it would be difficult to get one. Well and not to forget Arcam. But from these guys I heard, that they have severe firmware and quality problems and I know some people who sent their units several times for repair.
At least as far as my experience goes, marketing text and nice brochures are one thing, but that this unit also works - in all cases - is another.

Therefore, I think that the Denon AVP is a very good choice, they offer the 3D upgrade for a reasonable price, it has all the functions, at least I need - my wife has an iPhone but we don't use it for streaming. I use a Windows Server 2012 Essentials with Twonky. Works reliable, can be setup via LAN and used via Android and iOS (Apple) and gave me the best picture, I ever had - must be the built-in HDMI switch. Thank you rnrgange for your answer.

And not to forget the sound - most important with an AV-Pre-Amp. I know the difference between Audyssey XT and XT32 from Onkyo AV-Pre-Amps. I also own an Audyssey Pro-Kit. Man, was I surprised to hear what the AVP did, with only XT, out of the sound! Just one word: Amazing!

It is really a pity, that Denon doesn't build a follow-up. However, I don't think it is necessary now and that this unit will last some years to come.

MV_Cinema, your combination sounds excellent to me. No doubt, that this will sound better than most public cinemas smile.gif Enjoy!
post #24128 of 25965
Actual commercial theaters have to deal with the nightmare of filling a huge auditorium with sound and at the same time having it sound decent for multiple locations in the theater, last time I checked you are not able to pay extra at the ticket booth for a specific seat in the theater that is the sweet spot. As such any decent home theater set up should be able to exceed what a commercial theater can put forward.

What klipsch palladium models are you getting? My friend is running a 7.1 set up with klipsch palladiums.
post #24129 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

Actual commercial theaters have to deal with the nightmare of filling a huge auditorium with sound and at the same time having it sound decent for multiple locations in the theater, last time I checked you are not able to pay extra at the ticket booth for a specific seat in the theater that is the sweet spot. As such any decent home theater set up should be able to exceed what a commercial theater can put forward.
What klipsch palladium models are you getting? My friend is running a 7.1 set up with klipsch palladiums.

Hi

I am getting the:

- P-39F (Fronts)
- P-27S (Back Surrounds)
- P-27C (Center)
- P-312w (x2) Subwoofer

What is the result at your friend Theater? What kind of Processor and Amps does he use?
post #24130 of 25965
Hello members.

First of all a happy new year to you all smile.gif


I also bought an AVP in The Netherlands.(Still waiting for my AVP to get back as it´s being upgraded right now)

The AVP is like new and i was surprised i could find one because my plans were going after the Marantz AV 8801 at first.

I really like this thread and i am sure i can learn a lot here. wink.gif
post #24131 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by denon a1xva View Post

Hello members.
First of all a happy new year to you all smile.gif
I also bought an AVP in The Netherlands.(Still waiting for my AVP to get back as it´s being upgraded right now)
The AVP is like new and i was surprised i could find one because my plans were going after the Marantz AV 8801 at first.
I really like this thread and i am sure i can learn a lot here. wink.gif

Welcome to the club smile.gif
post #24132 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You have to consider the law of diminishing returns, just because something is more expensive doesn't mean you get more for that dollar.
I seriuosly doubt there's much to be had in terms of audible improvement once you get to the level of the AVP, so it boils down to function IMO.

That is spot on well said rnrgagne.
post #24133 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by denon a1xva View Post

Hello members.
First of all a happy new year to you all smile.gif
I also bought an AVP in The Netherlands.(Still waiting for my AVP to get back as it´s being upgraded right now)
The AVP is like new and i was surprised i could find one because my plans were going after the Marantz AV 8801 at first.
I really like this thread and i am sure i can learn a lot here. wink.gif

I brought mine also today to my local D&M repair shop for the upgrade. Will get it back most likely tomorrow or Friday. I was very eager to listen to it before the upgrade to have a comparison. What people wrote here about the upgrade was very positive. I am looking forward to it.

Franin did this already, but I join in, welcome to the club...smile.gif
post #24134 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Well the update was done by CineMike (who does updates too) they are near Aachen, its a multi hour drive for me but i would prefer it over a place that i don't trust.
Daniel.

Sorry for my late answer Daniel, so then you have the CineMike tuned version? I know this place, however, is it worth the price?

For those who don't know, this guy is 'tuning' the AVP and other equipment. He is mainly changing condensers, resistors and this kind of stuff and asks for 5000 Euro for the tuning - correct me Daniel, if I am wrong. Thanks.

I read numerous tests about equipment tuned by him and they were positive. However, you never know what is true and what not and what makes an audible difference. In theory it sounds good but will you also hear it? I am interested, to read your opinion Daniel.
post #24135 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Sorry for my late answer Daniel, so then you have the CineMike tuned version? I know this place, however, is it worth the price?
For those who don't know, this guy is 'tuning' the AVP and other equipment. He is mainly changing condensers, resistors and this kind of stuff and asks for 5000 Euro for the tuning - correct me Daniel, if I am wrong. Thanks.
I read numerous tests about equipment tuned by him and they were positive. However, you never know what is true and what not and what makes an audible difference. In theory it sounds good but will you also hear it? I am interested, to read your opinion Daniel.

Hi,

wink.gif I am not Daniel so sorry for that, but right now my AVP is being upgraded by CineMike, and i think it is worth the money.
post #24136 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Sorry for my late answer Daniel, so then you have the CineMike tuned version? I know this place, however, is it worth the price?
For those who don't know, this guy is 'tuning' the AVP and other equipment. He is mainly changing condensers, resistors and this kind of stuff and asks for 5000 Euro for the tuning - correct me Daniel, if I am wrong. Thanks.
I read numerous tests about equipment tuned by him and they were positive. However, you never know what is true and what not and what makes an audible difference. In theory it sounds good but will you also hear it? I am interested, to read your opinion Daniel.

Wow 5000 Euros is a lot! I would hope if one is considering investing that much, you would pick up a spare/used AVP to have around for parts, just in case something fails with your heavily-modded version and the part can't be replaced.
post #24137 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Sorry for my late answer Daniel, so then you have the CineMike tuned version? I know this place, however, is it worth the price?
For those who don't know, this guy is 'tuning' the AVP and other equipment. He is mainly changing condensers, resistors and this kind of stuff and asks for 5000 Euro for the tuning - correct me Daniel, if I am wrong. Thanks.
I read numerous tests about equipment tuned by him and they were positive. However, you never know what is true and what not and what makes an audible difference. In theory it sounds good but will you also hear it? I am interested, to read your opinion Daniel.

This has been discussed before, I think he asked 5800 euro for a combined AVP and POA upgrade. Mine is not upgraded he just performed the 3d update for me since it was a place i felt i could trust because i know they knew the unit and most repeat points have no clue.

The problem that i have with these tunings (i have cd/dvd players tuned before) is they all seem to demand/like a pure setup and no EQ at all and i have problems in this compare i simply have not made my mind up yet and 5800 euro was too much for me at that time.

Now on the price itself i have no problem, they will replace i think about 300 parts in each of the AVP and POA and it takes them a full week of work and i believe its lots of work because when i visited ive seen my own AVP apart but the place also had about 2 or 3 other AVP's and 2 POA's in heavy state of undress and parts all over the table. Agree or disagree with the result and the effects of replacing so many parts but i can promise you they are replacing them and they are very open about what they do and how unlike some other modders that almost see it as trade secrets (never a good sign).

Daniel.

PS: also i plan to move to B&W 800 D2 line soon for my speakers and that kinda drains the budget smile.gif
post #24138 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by denon a1xva View Post

Hi,
wink.gif I am not Daniel so sorry for that, but right now my AVP is being upgraded by CineMike, and i think it is worth the money.

Well worth the money considered the work, yes. But the changes in the sound? Would be interested to read your impressions after your AVP comes back.

Thank you in advance.
post #24139 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

This has been discussed before, I think he asked 5800 euro for a combined AVP and POA upgrade. Mine is not upgraded he just performed the 3d update for me since it was a place i felt i could trust because i know they knew the unit and most repeat points have no clue.
The problem that i have with these tunings (i have cd/dvd players tuned before) is they all seem to demand/like a pure setup and no EQ at all and i have problems in this compare i simply have not made my mind up yet and 5800 euro was too much for me at that time.
Now on the price itself i have no problem, they will replace i think about 300 parts in each of the AVP and POA and it takes them a full week of work and i believe its lots of work because when i visited ive seen my own AVP apart but the place also had about 2 or 3 other AVP's and 2 POA's in heavy state of undress and parts all over the table. Agree or disagree with the result and the effects of replacing so many parts but i can promise you they are replacing them and they are very open about what they do and how unlike some other modders that almost see it as trade secrets (never a good sign).
Daniel.
PS: also i plan to move to B&W 800 D2 line soon for my speakers and that kinda drains the budget smile.gif

Thank you for your answer. Well this 'pure setup' you mention would be also nothing for me. Due to the fact, that my living room, where my home cinema is located has relatively poor acoustics, I have to use Audyssey which gives me a much better sound. Therefore, this amount of money would not be worth it for me.
Also, if I would consider to do that and then be bound to use a pure setup, I would strongly consider the Bryston SP3. Costs less money, than an AVP list price plus the tuning and is also very pure and better than the AVP - sound wise. However, this is only an assumption by me and according the tests I read.

I can believe that the sound will change and that the tuning is worth the money, related to the amount of work. However, it can not change the basic characteristics of the AVP.

For me, my decision for the AVP was based on the functions and the excellent build quality of this unit. Therefore, I completely agree with your point of view.
post #24140 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Thank you for your answer. Well this 'pure setup' you mention would be also nothing for me. Due to the fact, that my living room, where my home cinema is located has relatively poor acoustics, I have to use Audyssey which gives me a much better sound. Therefore, this amount of money would not be worth it for me.
Also, if I would consider to do that and then be bound to use a pure setup, I would strongly consider the Bryston SP3. Costs less money, than an AVP list price plus the tuning and is also very pure and better than the AVP - sound wise. However, this is only an assumption by me and according the tests I read.
I can believe that the sound will change and that the tuning is worth the money, related to the amount of work. However, it can not change the basic characteristics of the AVP.
For me, my decision for the AVP was based on the functions and the excellent build quality of this unit. Therefore, I completely agree with your point of view.

CineMike does consider the AVP the best starting point for the a upgrade, they feel its better than any other pre/pro sold today to start from. They do lots of other brands now and feel forced to look into alternatives but they did buy AVP's and POA's when they could/can to work from.

Again for me the upgrade is iffy since i don't have a base to compare with audyssey XT32 in the mix but who knows maybe ill do it at some point. For now i think putting 20k into new speakers makes more sense smile.gif (some people claim putting 20k into speakers makes no sense but smile.gif ).

Daniel.
post #24141 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Thank you for your answer. Well this 'pure setup' you mention would be also nothing for me. Due to the fact, that my living room, where my home cinema is located has relatively poor acoustics, I have to use Audyssey which gives me a much better sound. Therefore, this amount of money would not be worth it for me.
Also, if I would consider to do that and then be bound to use a pure setup, I would strongly consider the Bryston SP3. Costs less money, than an AVP list price plus the tuning and is also very pure and better than the AVP - sound wise. However, this is only an assumption by me and according the tests I read.
I can believe that the sound will change and that the tuning is worth the money, related to the amount of work. However, it can not change the basic characteristics of the AVP.
For me, my decision for the AVP was based on the functions and the excellent build quality of this unit. Therefore, I completely agree with your point of view.


However, it can not change the basic characteristics of the AVP.

If you talk about the change in sound i can assure you that it is different from the basic sound.

More details, a bigger soundstage and more transparency at any volume level.

Right after delivering my AVP personaly by car we did compare my stock unit with the upgraded one. Even after a couple of minutes it was very clear.

I also had a chance to hear their upgraded Bryston SP3 amplifier and sounded also very good. But this was not a final version yet.


There is a customer from France who does have a U.S. model (black color) and did have it modified by Mike and uses Audyssey and is very happy with the results. So even with Audyssey there is improvement. If it is worth it i don't know because i have never heard it with Audyssey.

But the rule is that everything should be on a good level to get the full benefit of these upgrades. So the source and amplifier are important too.

Their goal is to get the Bryston on the same level as the AVP (upgraded) to offer this to customers as a replacement for the AVP.

A standard Bryston is not on the same level as the upgraded AVP. wink.gif
post #24142 of 25965
I'd be worried they would tune to "taste" rather than accuracy. Sort of like playing with tubes, where they chase a specific flavor...
To me the AVP is about as accurate a sound reproducer as I've heard.
Having said that, the mind is the most powerful tool in audio....
post #24143 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I'd be worried they would tune to "taste" rather than accuracy. Sort of like playing with tubes, where they chase a specific flavor...
To me the AVP is about as accurate a sound reproducer as I've heard.
Having said that, the mind is the most powerful tool in audio....

It's very hard to describe how the upgrades sound. Consider the upgrades as making a very good unit even better. Not as making a bad unit sounding good.

The stock AVP is a fabulous unit and still one of the best on the planet. I consider myself very lucky that i could buy one.smile.gif
post #24144 of 25965
Since the AVP A1HDCI is no longer in production is the Marantz AV8801 considered its replacement? Has anyone compared them? Would it be considered an upgrade to move to the 11.1 3D/Audyssey32 AV8801?
post #24145 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Since the AVP A1HDCI is no longer in production is the Marantz AV8801 considered its replacement? Has anyone compared them? Would it be considered an upgrade to move to the 11.1 3D/Audyssey32 AV8801?

I don't think it would be an upgrade as much as a sideways move depending on how you plan to use it.

In simple terms, the more channels you add the harder it is to pick up on any audible differences that would be in play.

On that basis if one wanted to primarily use 11 channels and didn't have 11 channels of amplification on hand, one should probably look at a receiver with XT32.
If one does a lot of 2ch music, one might be better off looking for a used AVP as some have done here.
post #24146 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I don't think it would be an upgrade as much as a sideways move depending on how you plan to use it.
In simple terms, the more channels you add the harder it is to pick up on any audible differences that would be in play.
On that basis if one wanted to primarily use 11 channels and didn't have 11 channels of amplification on hand, one should probably look at a receiver with XT32.
If one does a lot of 2ch music, one might be better off looking for a used AVP as some have done here.

I can only agree to this! But 11 channels is only about processing power - isn't it. The additional channels are artificially generated by the DSPs. That is why, I was asking for the 'Expendables 2' BD which should have muxed Neo:X
post #24147 of 25965
What was the reference/flagship AV from Marantz that competed with the Denon AVP prior back when?
post #24148 of 25965
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Since the AVP A1HDCI is no longer in production is the Marantz AV8801 considered its replacement? Has anyone compared them? Would it be considered an upgrade to move to the 11.1 3D/Audyssey32 AV8801?
The AV8801 is essentially a Denon AVR-4520 with the amps removed and a few upgrades. It's definitely not a Denon AVP replacement / upgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

What was the reference/flagship AV from Marantz that competed with the Denon AVP prior back when?
I don't recall them having anything to compete with the Denon AVP.

If Marantz is supposed to be taking over handling the flagship product duties as has been rumored, they've got some work ahead of them. Just as an example, Marantz's current top receiver is less expensive than Denon's AVR-4520.
post #24149 of 25965
AV8801 - D/A Conversion 192kHz/32-Bit, Networking AirPlay, DLNA 1.5 certified Audio/Photo Streaming, Internet Radio, Streaming service capability (Spotify/Pandora/SiriusXM/flickr), Audyssey MultEQXT32, SubEQHT, DSX, Dynamic EQ Dynamic Volume, Number of Channels 11.2.

No S-Video. It's about time

Small 4 port network switch.

Just saying, all this for $3,599.
post #24150 of 25965
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

AVP and POA are now on then Denon USA discontinued pages at this point. What a great combo Denon put together! Remember the original brochure for these:
http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/US/High_End_Catalog_Lit0611.pdf
Should last us all for many more years. Thanks Denon for these products! SJ

Thanks for sharing this catalog.wink.gif I saved it to my PC, as I consider it to be something to hang on to. Quite an amazing production run these three awesome products have had. 5 years for the AVP/POA, that's amazing in itself! And the A1UD enjoyed a 3 1/2 year run. All top notch products! And I am very happy and proud to be an owner of two of these products (AVP/A1UD). I plan to use and enjoy them for hopefully many years to come.smile.gif


Hope everyone had a nice New Years!


Seth
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