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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 807

post #24181 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Oh, the AVP will passthrough/switch 4K video?

I think he means if you went with the AV8801. No 4K pass through on the AVP is documented. I have 4K from by BD player, but no display to check/confirm with.
post #24182 of 25955
My guess is also, that this could work. Strictly pass through. My Onkyo or other AVRs with 4k capability use the same HDMI interface. The only thing should be that the HDMI switch can handle the amount of bandwidth.

'The HDMI 1.4 specification adds support for extremely high video resolutions that go far beyond today’s 1080p systems. 4K is shorthand for 4,000 lines wide by 2,000 lines high, or roughly four times the resolution of a 1080p display. The term actually covers two formats, both supported in the HDMI 1.4 specification:'

From here: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/4K.aspx

Looks good to me that this works with the AVP...
post #24183 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

My guess is also, that this could work. Strictly pass through. My Onkyo or other AVRs with 4k capability use the same HDMI interface. The only thing should be that the HDMI switch can handle the amount of bandwidth.
'The HDMI 1.4 specification adds support for extremely high video resolutions that go far beyond today’s 1080p systems. 4K is shorthand for 4,000 lines wide by 2,000 lines high, or roughly four times the resolution of a 1080p display. The term actually covers two formats, both supported in the HDMI 1.4 specification:'
From here: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/4K.aspx
Looks good to me that this works with the AVP...

I'm not so sure. For certain, you'd have to at least have the upgraded AVP with "Video Direct" option. Because otherwise (or with non-upgraded AVP), all HDMI signals have to run into the HQV processor. Which would certainly barf on 4K.

I don't think it's a bandwidth issue, so much as an "unsupported resolution" issue. If the incoming resolution doesn't match one of the pre-defined parameters, the AVP will just flat out block it.

So who's gonna buy a 4K display first, to give this a shot? smile.gif
post #24184 of 25955
I'm thinking about getting rid of my AVP-A1HDCI (A) just upgraded to 3D/Audyssey32. Perfect condition, used for 5 months, 5 months in box waiting for room remodel. Think I'll go 11.2 with the AV8801.

Anyone think this is a good or bad idea?
post #24185 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

I'm thinking about getting rid of my AVP-A1HDCI (A) just upgraded to 3D/Audyssey32. Perfect condition, used for 5 months, 5 months in box waiting for room remodel. Think I'll go 11.2 with the AV8801.
Anyone think this is a good or bad idea?

Only you can decide that. I think it's as simple as deciding on what best fits your intended uses.
post #24186 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

I think he means if you went with the AV8801. No 4K pass through on the AVP is documented. I have 4K from by BD player, but no display to check/confirm with.

Oh after re-reading it he might be talking about if I got an Oppo with dual HDMI outputs. At this point I have zero desire to change out my AVP, and certainly not for the 8801.
post #24187 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

I'm thinking about getting rid of my AVP-A1HDCI (A) just upgraded to 3D/Audyssey32. Perfect condition, used for 5 months, 5 months in box waiting for room remodel. Think I'll go 11.2 with the AV8801.
Anyone think this is a good or bad idea?

How do you know you'll even like 11.2? Seems like a big risk... trading known (excellent) quality, for something that may sound worse, which only gives you two extra channels which you may not even find suitable.
post #24188 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

So who's gonna buy a 4K display first, to give this a shot? smile.gif

And you'd need a source too. wink.gif
post #24189 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

And you'd need a source too. wink.gif

Well I can use my OPPO BDP-105, which lets me select 4K x 2K resolution output for upscaling. I just have no display of that nature.
post #24190 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

How do you know you'll even like 11.2? Seems like a big risk... trading known (excellent) quality, for something that may sound worse, which only gives you two extra channels which you may not even find suitable.

Very true, still deciding. Wanted input from you all to help. Sound quality out weighs an extra two channels. Just wanted to add wides to the height and have the Audyssey 32 to support it. Plus the 32bit DAC's that presumably are better.
post #24191 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Very true, still deciding. Wanted input from you all to help. Sound quality out weighs an extra two channels. Just wanted to add wides to the height and have the Audyssey 32 to support it. Plus the 32bit DAC's that presumably are better.

In my experience, the "numbers game" of DACs (i.e. 24bit vs. 32bit) is outweighed by the analog path, etc. inside the unit. It would seem unlikely the analog components inside the AV8801 would be up to the high standard of the AVP.
post #24192 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

In my experience, the "numbers game" of DACs (i.e. 24bit vs. 32bit) is outweighed by the analog path, etc. inside the unit. It would seem unlikely the analog components inside the AV8801 would be up to the high standard of the AVP.

Not only that, but the bit depth is only one of several factors in DAC performance.
post #24193 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

In my experience, the "numbers game" of DACs (i.e. 24bit vs. 32bit) is outweighed by the analog path, etc. inside the unit. It would seem unlikely the analog components inside the AV8801 would be up to the high standard of the AVP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Not only that, but the bit depth is only one of several factors in DAC performance.

I guess it comes down to old fashion listening. Need a/b test.

Marantz goes about things differently. No DL for minimizing jitter. Instead copper housing, better opp amps. advanced multi-DSP audio processor, and individual HDAM's or each channel.

I sure don't want to make a mistake. I do love my AVP, just always looking to stay ontop.
post #24194 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

I guess it comes down to old fashion listening. Need a/b test.
Marantz goes about things differently. No DL for minimizing jitter. Instead copper housing, better opp amps. advanced multi-DSP audio processor, and individual HDAM's or each channel.
I sure don't want to make a mistake. I do love my AVP, just always looking to stay ontop.

The 8801 probably has the same or close to the same dsp power as the AVP would not be shocked the AVP with the update now has more. HDAM just means they don't use regular opamps but build them with basic transistor units. The AVP esp when using xlr also uses a special signal path for each channel on seperated boards (6 boards) :

http://www.soundstage2.com/lasvegas2009/jan11e/denon_circuit_table.jpg

The copper housing i have no comments about but looking at how massive think and shielded parts are :

http://www.marcush.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/denon_vorst_avp-a1hd.jpg

http://us.marantz.com/Assets/Images/Products/AV8801/AV8801_1.png

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/5/4520_inside2.jpg

I would not worry about that, the whole story about the copper has to result in less noise and well the AVP+POA has a amazing low noise level doubt if the 8801 can touch it.

edit: added the inside of the 4520 vs 8801. you can see how close 50% of the case is. on the 8801 they took the amps out and reused the space as i have talked about before you can clearly see the 3 DSP's. ill hunt down the numbers but i would guess its the same layout, chips and speeds as the new DSP board inside the AVP.

edit2: indeed the 4520/8801 use 3x Devices Sharc ADSP-21487

same as the avp board now : (see image)



Daniel.
Edited by danielo - 1/4/13 at 2:10pm
post #24195 of 25955
The upgraded AVP uses Sharc ADSP-21487 decoders, and the AV8801 probably uses the exact same chips.
post #24196 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

It would be great if someone really close to how D&M does things could say if -
1) AL32 is intact in the Marantz's but is not advertised to preserve brand differentiation or
2) it's there but turned off in FW code
I have a really hard time believing that the company builds 2 separate circuit designs & digital processing boards. that would make no sense for economies of scale in production costs. It makes a whole more sense that the company "comments out" the code that implements AL32 in the processor wink.gif
it's too bad if it really isn't there. because that would make the Marantz a clear winner. I'm still skeptical that the analog enhancements can compensate for lack of upsampling, I can't even find any reference of any kind anywhere on upsampling. Surely in this day, Marantz would deliberately leave it out which IMO puts them at a disadvantage to nearly all their competitors. Pioneer has had it for years, as has Denon. Why Marantz wouldn't strikes me as very short-sighted technologically. Having it PLUS the analog enhancements, PLUS the shielding would make it a clear winner. Now....it's not clear at all, all the subjective reviews not withstanding. Sorry, but the objectivist in me wants to know what technology is used in the box & makes it tick smile.gif no different than how I look at gear from Pioneer, Denon or Onkyo.
all these subjective remarks are fine but more details of what's really in the 2 products & how they differ would be more helpful IMO.
We know the Audyssey vs Pioneer MCACC issues. What about AL32 vs no-AL32?

your making a big deal of the al32, but that doesnt acknowledge the massive dac section of the avp. someone posted that a while back the dual differential dac board is so big it wouldnt even fit in the marantz I reckon compared to the money saving dac on a chip option the marantz and denon 4520 use. the avp was a cost no object item the kind of thing denon does every 10 years as an exercise to show what it can do putting mind to it. items like the marantz or denon equivalent avr are more mass market items limited by cost as it higher volumes lower margin cant expect them to be comparable in components used. look inside the avp and inside the marantz or denon 4520 the avps in a whole another league smile.gif
post #24197 of 25955
I still think we're talking about minutia in terms of potential audible differences, and that gets even smaller as you add channels.
post #24198 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

your making a big deal of the al32, but that doesnt acknowledge the massive dac section of the avp. someone posted that a while back the dual differential dac board is so big it wouldnt even fit in the marantz I reckon compared to the money saving dac on a chip option the marantz and denon 4520 use. the avp was a cost no object item the kind of thing denon does every 10 years as an exercise to show what it can do putting mind to it. items like the marantz or denon equivalent avr are more mass market items limited by cost as it higher volumes lower margin cant expect them to be comparable in components used. look inside the avp and inside the marantz or denon 4520 the avps in a whole another league smile.gif

I feel like an idiot...I meant my post for the Marantz thread!
I will delete. That's what I get for posting in a hurry redface.gif

But you're point is well-taken comparing the AVP to the 8801. there's a lot of hardware difference between them. Sorry I was confused in where I put my post! but my point was most of the Marantz thread is full of subjectivity and not much on hardware & implementation differences between it & the 4520.

carry on, as I depart feeling silly I got the threads confused smile.gif
post #24199 of 25955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

Welcome back Seth. Thought we lost you when you decided against the 3D/XT upgrade.

Thanks Willy.wink.gif

Nope, I'm still here and still a proud and very happy AVP owner!biggrin.gif It's still so nice to see that almost all of the discussion here on this thread has to do with either the fun we're having with our units, or learning about how to use certain functions. It's very rare to read about any issues an owner is having with their AVP. An amazing and rock solid product that truly delivered on everything (or nearly everything) Denon said it would. At this point I have no desire, even without the upgrade, to replace my AVP with any other model.

I hope my AVP lasts for many years to come.
post #24200 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeah32 View Post

Thanks Willy.wink.gif
Nope, I'm still here and still a proud and very happy AVP owner!biggrin.gif It's still so nice to see that almost all of the discussion here on this thread has to do with either the fun we're having with our units, or learning about how to use certain functions. It's very rare to read about any issues an owner is having with their AVP. An amazing and rock solid product that truly delivered on everything (or nearly everything) Denon said it would. At this point I have no desire, even without the upgrade, to replace my AVP with any other model.
I hope my AVP lasts for many years to come.

Right! As a new AVP owner I feel the same and I agree to all posts above, saying that the AVP is no match compared to the AV8801. This is a different league and I also agree, that Denon did something extraordinary in ten years.

For me it is hard to believe, that processing power is outweighing basic electronically design at it's finest.

I fully agree to this post and others made before.I am still waiting for my upgrade but what I read, this will only make the AVP better. I also have an Audyssey Pro-Kit and will put the AVP to the test. However, even the standard version exceeded my expectations.
post #24201 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Oh after re-reading it he might be talking about if I got an Oppo with dual HDMI outputs. At this point I have zero desire to change out my AVP, and certainly not for the 8801.

That's what I was meaning rnr if you ever decide to go to 4k just buy an oppo and your able to keep your AVP. I have no desire to go to Marantz at all, why are people getting excited about it? 11.2?

If people have there systems calibrated right ( speakers subs placement correct in room, acoustics etc ) and the audio is exactly where they want it what on earth is the Marantz or any other pre amp going to do, apart from functions ( eg iPod, Internet hub and all that stuff ) that's it. People tend to forget its all about the audio, they're all rushing to get the next so called big thing for its functions.
post #24202 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeah32 View Post

Thanks Willy.wink.gif
Nope, I'm still here and still a proud and very happy AVP owner!biggrin.gif It's still so nice to see that almost all of the discussion here on this thread has to do with either the fun we're having with our units, or learning about how to use certain functions. It's very rare to read about any issues an owner is having with their AVP. An amazing and rock solid product that truly delivered on everything (or nearly everything) Denon said it would. At this point I have no desire, even without the upgrade, to replace my AVP with any other model.
I hope my AVP lasts for many years to come.

Same, im not interested in any audio upgrade unless my pre amp decides not too work anymore.
post #24203 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I still think we're talking about minutia in terms of potential audible differences, and that gets even smaller as you add channels.

Exactly! There will be no difference. The only difference is when you go louder in volume it is still sounding clear with very little (if any ) audible distortion. I know I can go to reference on the AVP with no distortion so why I on earth would I change that.
Edited by Franin - 1/4/13 at 6:43pm
post #24204 of 25955
Ofes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Exactly! There will be no difference. People want difference change your speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Same, im not interested in any audio upgrade unless my pre amp decides not too work anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

That's what I was meaning rnr if you ever decide to go to 4k just buy an oppo and your able to keep your AVP. I have no desire to go to Marantz at all, why are people getting excited about it? 11.2?
If people have there systems calibrated right ( speakers subs placement correct in room, acoustics etc ) and the audio is exactly where they want it what on earth is the Marantz or any other pre amp going to do, apart from functions ( eg iPod, Internet hub and all that stuff ) that's it. People tend to forget its all about the audio, they're all rushing to get the next so called big thing for its functions.

Thanks great confirmation I originally made a good choice with my AVP. All I need is Pro, and my room professionally treated. Well more money too. I purchased a UD9004 to replace my 3800bdci, I don't think there is a better blu ray on the market, I see it as the AVP, it won't be matched. I got a great price since box open but is new. The DVD-A1UD was gone and only used available. Will do as you say, buy an Oppo if I ever go to 4K.
post #24205 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Ofes
Thanks great confirmation I originally made a good choice with my AVP. All I need is Pro, and my room professionally treated. Well more money too. I purchased a UD9004 to replace my 3800bdci, I don't think there is a better blu ray on the market, I see it as the AVP, it won't be matched. I got a great price since box open but is new. The DVD-A1UD was gone and only used available. Will do as you say, buy an Oppo if I ever go to 4K.

Im doing the same buying an Oppo when I go 4K. Spend the money on the room, you will realise its money well spent. I learnt the hard way I was in all into upgrading to the latest many years ago, changing speakers, subs, audio gear constantly. Wasted too much money. People are still doing it in the forums and they will realise one day that the room was the most important. Actually it was my original HAA calibrator who made me see the light and some people on these forums.
post #24206 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I feel like an idiot...I meant my post for the Marantz thread!
I will delete. That's what I get for posting in a hurry redface.gif
But you're point is well-taken comparing the AVP to the 8801. there's a lot of hardware difference between them. Sorry I was confused in where I put my post! but my point was most of the Marantz thread is full of subjectivity and not much on hardware & implementation differences between it & the 4520.
carry on, as I depart feeling silly I got the threads confused smile.gif

No problem the 8801 was a topic here anyway and yes we are a little more objective i feel in this thread and research things when needed. My guess on AL32 that its either fully active on the 8801 (and not talked about) or partly. Simply because part of its function is to make all audio 'ready' for use in the rest of the digital audio path that imho is always running at 192/24 or 192/32. If they don't upsample it would make the rest of the chain more complex and less stable. I think all D&M devices use this trick. Maybe marantz tuned some of the other stuff done in the AL24/AL32 algorithm but i have my doubts my guess they went for changes in the analog path only. As you can see in the images i just posted it looks like 50% (the non amp part) is the same why introduce differences in the firmware if its not needed.

Daniel.
post #24207 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

For me it is hard to believe, that processing power is outweighing basic electronically design at it's finest.
.

That was my point, the AVP and 8801 use the same amount of chips of the same model at the same speeds (the 3 dsp's) the AVP probably has a bigger FPGA since we see more flexible options and probably also better other parts in the digital path and for sure in the dac parts. What it doesn't have is 32 bits paths (and so no 32 bits dac's) no upgrade in the world could change that easy and 192khz/32 was not a option in 2006/2007 when they designed it.

Now the video processing is a different question the chip difference there is massive but most of us hardly use it anyway.

Daniel.
post #24208 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

No problem the 8801 was a topic here anyway and yes we are a little more objective i feel in this thread and research things when needed. My guess on AL32 that its either fully active on the 8801 (and not talked about) or partly. Simply because part of its function is to make all audio 'ready' for use in the rest of the digital audio path that imho is always running at 192/24 or 192/32. If they don't upsample it would make the rest of the chain more complex and less stable. I think all D&M devices use this trick. Maybe marantz tuned some of the other stuff done in the AL24/AL32 algorithm but i have my doubts my guess they went for changes in the analog path only. As you can see in the images i just posted it looks like 50% (the non amp part) is the same why introduce differences in the firmware if its not needed.
Daniel.

thanks for your reply. I'm not sure why Marantz wouldn't want to advertise some form of upsampling, in a similar fashion as their M-DAX vs Denon Restorer - 2 tradenames for the "same" thing.

what you say makes sense, tho. it's hard to think that the company would design & mass produce 2 different circuit boards for each product, when the 1 serves both companies and maybe Marantz has an agreement with Denon not to market it. that would be nice, if it could be confirmed with (ahem) service manuals that had the schematics wink.gif

the problem I have with the Marantz thread is that for the most part, it's the usual subjective reviewer(s) (& mostly one wink.gif) that act as pied pipers that "the Marantz is much better sounding" than the Denon version without any supporting documentation to support it. Here, a good number of you have the manuals and have figured out the hardware in the unit so have a basis of understanding of the theoretical advantages of the design. over there, so far, it's mostly (ahem) "higher temperature" air wink.gif
post #24209 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

That was my point, the AVP and 8801 use the same amount of chips of the same model at the same speeds (the 3 dsp's) the AVP probably has a bigger FPGA since we see more flexible options and probably also better other parts in the digital path and for sure in the dac parts. What it doesn't have is 32 bits paths (and so no 32 bits dac's) no upgrade in the world could change that easy and 192khz/32 was not a option in 2006/2007 when they designed it.
Now the video processing is a different question the chip difference there is massive but most of us hardly use it anyway.
Daniel.

This is absolutely correct. But does somebody really think, that up-sampling from 24 to 32 bits makes a difference???

My Onkyo PR-SC5509 had also these 192/32 DACs. Are they making an audible difference? I have my strong doubts. I mean how can one know this? You can't take them out or replace them. You would really need the same unit but with different DACs.

BTW Denon and Marantz belong to the D&M Holding, which stands for Denon & Marantz. They are two brands of one company. Just because of this discussion before.
Edited by Ganymed4 - 1/5/13 at 11:32am
post #24210 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

The 8801 probably has the same or close to the same dsp power as the AVP would not be shocked the AVP with the update now has more. HDAM just means they don't use regular opamps but build them with basic transistor units. The AVP esp when using xlr also uses a special signal path for each channel on seperated boards (6 boards) :
http://www.soundstage2.com/lasvegas2009/jan11e/denon_circuit_table.jpg
The copper housing i have no comments about but looking at how massive think and shielded parts are :
http://www.marcush.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/denon_vorst_avp-a1hd.jpg
http://us.marantz.com/Assets/Images/Products/AV8801/AV8801_1.png
http://www.hideflifestyle.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/4/5/4520_inside2.jpg
I would not worry about that, the whole story about the copper has to result in less noise and well the AVP+POA has a amazing low noise level doubt if the 8801 can touch it.
edit: added the inside of the 4520 vs 8801. you can see how close 50% of the case is. on the 8801 they took the amps out and reused the space as i have talked about before you can clearly see the 3 DSP's. ill hunt down the numbers but i would guess its the same layout, chips and speeds as the new DSP board inside the AVP.
edit2: indeed the 4520/8801 use 3x Devices Sharc ADSP-21487
same as the avp board now : (see image)

Daniel.

So it's possible with the added space removing the amps, they made the 8801 better, focusing on audio. Might go well with my new UD9004.

Also I have all McIntosh amps without XLR balanced inputs. FYI zero noise at all levels can put ear up to speaker and hear nothing. Also all components .0005% THD UD9004 .0008% THD
Edited by dahlgren - 1/5/13 at 12:08pm
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