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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 809

post #24241 of 25955
I have a Marantz UD9004 and a AVP-A1HDCI. No body talks on the UD9004 forum so I ask here. Want to play SACD multi and 2ch with the best audio possible with a minimum of menu changes on both UD & AVP.

Connected XLR outs to AVP, selected CD and selected XLR. Have HDMI1 out to DVD on AVP.

Never been able to play SACD till now. I'm a virgin.

Review I read said "To wrestle full control over the UD9004’s multichannel analogue outputs you’ll need to go to HDMI Setup >Audio Setup and set this to ‘Mute’ before returning to the top Audio Setup menu where the (analogue) 7.1 channel level and distance options then become available. To enable the speaker configuration options (speaker size and crossover frequency) the Source Direct mode needs to be switched from ‘On:50kHz/100kHz’ to ‘Off’. Only now may you fully configure the UD9004 as a standalone source offering 7.1 channels of analogue sound from its RCA/XLR connections and 1080p/60Hz/24Hz digital video over HDMI."
To wrestle full control over the UD9004’s multichannel analogue outputs you’ll need to go to HDMI Setup >Audio Setup and set this to ‘Mute’ before returning to the top Audio Setup menu where the (analogue) 7.1 channel level and distance options then become available. To enable the speaker configuration options (speaker size and crossover frequency) the Source Direct mode needs to be switched from ‘On:50kHz/100kHz’ to ‘Off’. Only now may you fully configure the UD9004 as a standalone source offering 7.1 channels of analogue sound from its RCA/XLR connections and 1080p/60Hz/24Hz digital video over HDMI. http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/marantz-ud9004-pound;5000/7602

This works but changes all the settings so I can't play blu ray, no video at all. Plus can't see menus, most DVD-A or SACD have a menu to select sound format options. Have to select menu option from DVD input where video is available then switch to CD input on AVP to get the sound.

I must be way off. I can't believe this is how it's expected to do this. Also some of my disks are live concerts, I want best audio with video also playing. Is this even possible?

Can I use HDMI2 for video only to CD input on AVP and XLR for audio. Is that what I'm missing?
Edited by dahlgren - 1/10/13 at 9:07am
post #24242 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

most DVD-A or SACD have a menu to select sound format options. Have to select menu option from DVD input where video is available then switch to CD input on AVP to get the sound

I hate to be nitpicky but since you are an enthusiast, we might as well get facts straight...only DVD-A has video capability. Not SACD, which is audio only & plays just like a CD smile.gif you don't use a menu with SACD's.
post #24243 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I hate to be nitpicky but since you are an enthusiast, we might as well get facts straight...only DVD-A has video capability. Not SACD, which is audio only & plays just like a CD smile.gif you don't use a menu with SACD's.

Then that answers the SACD question, no need for video for a menu. I have King Crimson with menu that comes up when disk is loaded, no vidio just menu, have to select lossless or 2ch etc prior to playing. So can I get that menu to come up on CD input so I can listen to 2ch and make a selection?

What about the DVD-A concert videos? Can I use the CD input on AVP with XLR audio and HDMI on CD input and still get multi channel and video or is the XLR just 2ch?

How do I get the best audio with HDMi?
Edited by dahlgren - 1/10/13 at 9:42am
post #24244 of 25955
^^
If you're referring to the Steven Wilson's (of Porcupine Tree fame) remastered King Crimsons with lossless surround, those are not SACD's, they are DVD-Audio's. and they do have menus to be displayed on the screen to select which format to play. I assume your King Crimson also came with with a CD.

SACD's and DVD-A's are not the same thing nor can all SACD players play DVD-A's. SACD's use a Sony-Philips developed disc structure using Direst Stream Digital or DSD recorded sound. DVD-Audio is a hi-rez PCM (same as CD) format but at higher sampling rates & bit depth, up to 192K Hz & 24 bits, but most commonly 96K Hz 24 bits. When SACD's are converted to PCM before playback (for example, if you are using Audyssey processing, the DSD is converted to PCM before conversion to analog), the equivalent PCM sampling rate is usually either 88.2 or 176.4 K Hz 24 bits. SACD/DSD is actually a 1 bit recording technology as opposed to PCM, an analogy might be serial vs parallel. think of it this way - a CD is 44.1KHz sampled rate X 16 bits "width" while SACD/DSD is 2.8224 MHz sampling rate X 1 bit "width".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD
http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dvd-audio-vs-sacd-vs-cd
http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-feature-articles/audio-related-articles/battle-of-the-discs-dvd-audio-vs.-sacd.html

again I'm not trying to be critical, if you're thinking hi-end gear, it might be helpful to your discussions to learn some more about the hi-rez lossless audio formats & the recordings you're speaking about smile.gif

DVD-Audio can contain std MPEG 2 DVD video, like concerts, and static on screen menus while SACD has NO video or on-screen capability. it's audio only.

for proper DVD-A playback you'll want a video connection to see the menu's, HDMI certainly is the best option. but you *could* even use component or even composite video but you'd still want an HDMI connection for multichannel hi-resolution audio so there'd be no point to using an analog video connection. if you're a 2 channel only guy, then you can use optical/coax digital. but for multichannel, you'll need HDMI.
Edited by ss9001 - 1/10/13 at 11:20am
post #24245 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

How do I get the best audio with HDMi?

confused.gif

any modern universal player that can play DVD-A & SACD plus HDMI 1.3 or 1.4 will get you the full 192 Khz 24 bits on a DVD-Audio and will transfer SACD either converted by the player as PCM or passed to the processor as straight DSD.

you don't have to "do" anything.

as long as the processor isn't downsampling, whatever audio resolution is on the disc will get transferred to the processor at its full lossless hi-resolution sampling rate & bit depth.

the XLR on the Marantz player are hi-quality stereo only so you could connect its XLR's to the AVP as you said, and HDMI for multichannel audio. I don't know if you can assign the video from the HDMI to the AVP's CD audio input in its menu. but if you can't, then you have other options to view the video part...component video being one which could be assigned so that it plays along with the XLR CD input. or use component video and the 5.1 analog outputs from the player (the AVP has the analog-to-digital converters so that Audyssey can be applied to the audio on the multichannel analog inputs but all this seems kind of complicated to me wink.gif I'd suggest the KISS approach, use HDMI and that also gives you everything.

the only thing you'll "lack" using HDMI with the Marantz is not having DenonLink for the ultimate jitter control over HDMI. if you're an analog purist who wants to use the DAC's & HDAM's in the Marantz, the XLR CD connections along with a component video cable would get you very nice 2 ch. you can use that for 2 ch and HDMI for multichannel - best of both worlds!
Edited by ss9001 - 1/10/13 at 11:22am
post #24246 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Where is 64bit?

What is the goal of this question, if you don't want us to try to reply to your 32 vs 24 questions fine but this just confuses us.

Daniel.
post #24247 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

What is the goal of this question, if you don't want us to try to reply to your 32 vs 24 questions fine but this just confuses us.

Daniel.

Just putting it out there cause I'm sure it's coming.
post #24248 of 25955
May I ask you 'knowing' guys a short question?

Does the AVP play FLAC files with more than 48 kHz / 16 bit? In the manual it says no but it can play LPCM up to 192/24. So in principle it has the DACs but only the file decoding is missing?

Thank you in advance.
post #24249 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

May I ask you 'knowing' guys a short question?

Does the AVP play FLAC files with more than 48 kHz / 16 bit? In the manual it says no but it can play LPCM up to 192/24. So in principle it has the DACs but only the file decoding is missing?

Thank you in advance.
Nope - you'll need to buy a streamer or the like.
post #24250 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

Nope - you'll need to buy a streamer or the like.

Thank you for your answer.

Do you mean a standalone streaming box and connect this to the AVP? I use a Windows Server for streaming and Twonky but the rendering or DACs are in the AVP.
post #24251 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Thank you for your answer.

Do you mean a standalone streaming box and connect this to the AVP? I use a Windows Server for streaming and Twonky but the rendering or DACs are in the AVP.

I use Twonky for FLAC and it works just fine via a wired or wireless connection to the AVP from my MAC Pro.
post #24252 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Thank you for your answer.

Do you mean a standalone streaming box and connect this to the AVP? I use a Windows Server for streaming and Twonky but the rendering or DACs are in the AVP.
Something that will take the flac files to pcm. I use my oppo but there are many others including computers. Avp is very limited on flac playback and streaming.
post #24253 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

I use Twonky for FLAC and it works just fine via a wired or wireless connection to the AVP from my MAC Pro.

Yes, this also works for me, however HiRes encoded files over 48/16 e.g. 96/24 do not work - FLAC. The AVP display reads 'format error'. It works in principle and if you rip CDs everything is fine but I think WillyJ is right.
I thought that after the '3D' update also this problem would be solved - update to new formats/encoding of FLAC. But this seems to be not the case. However, I can still play my ripped CDs via Twonky.
I could try my WD-TV to play these files but then I need a display to use it.

I guess this is just a software issue. If somebody from Denon is reading here - would be nice, if you could offer a software update for FLAC. The upgraded AVP is not old and I am expecting to use it for some years to come. After the upgrade it also has the processing power and the DACs should be able to do the job and it sounds just marvelous...smile.gif

Thank you, both of you, for your answers.
post #24254 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Yes, this also works for me, however HiRes encoded files over 48/16 e.g. 96/24 do not work - FLAC. The AVP display reads 'format error'. It works in principle and if you rip CDs everything is fine but I think WillyJ is right.
I thought that after the '3D' update also this problem would be solved - update to new formats/encoding of FLAC. But this seems to be not the case. However, I can still play my ripped CDs via Twonky.
I could try my WD-TV to play these files but then I need a display to use it.

I guess this is just a software issue. If somebody from Denon is reading here - would be nice, if you could offer a software update for FLAC. The upgraded AVP is not old and I am expecting to use it for some years to come. After the upgrade it also has the processing power and the DACs should be able to do the job and it sounds just marvelous...smile.gif

Thank you, both of you, for your answers.

I too had hoped they would incorporate support for hires flac with the recent update but alas, nothing was done; However, as has been posted here before, the AVP's interface is very clunky and slow and you really are better off with a dedicated streamer. In addition to faster speed and a better interface, you will gain album art support, playlists and so forth too.
post #24255 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I too had hoped they would incorporate support for hires flac with the recent update but alas, nothing was done; However, as has been posted here before, the AVP's interface is very clunky and slow and you really are better off with a dedicated streamer. In addition to faster speed and a better interface, you will gain album art support, playlists and so forth too.

I couldn't agree more smile.gif It's a pity that those manufacturers of 'hifi equipment' have been so blind on the software side for years. I mean menus you can count pixels, problems with formats. I think this is not only Denon, it applies to many of these manufacturers. Blu-Ray players was a good example for me in the beginning years....
But I hope they are starting to keep up with Apple, Microsoft and others. Software and processing power is definitely their weak point wink.gif
post #24256 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
If you're referring to the Steven Wilson's (of Porcupine Tree fame) remastered King Crimsons with lossless surround, those are not SACD's, they are DVD-Audio's. and they do have menus to be displayed on the screen to select which format to play. I assume your King Crimson also came with with a CD.

SACD's and DVD-A's are not the same thing nor can all SACD players play DVD-A's. SACD's use a Sony-Philips developed disc structure using Direst Stream Digital or DSD recorded sound. DVD-Audio is a hi-rez PCM (same as CD) format but at higher sampling rates & bit depth, up to 192K Hz & 24 bits, but most commonly 96K Hz 24 bits. When SACD's are converted to PCM before playback (for example, if you are using Audyssey processing, the DSD is converted to PCM before conversion to analog), the equivalent PCM sampling rate is usually either 88.2 or 176.4 K Hz 24 bits. SACD/DSD is actually a 1 bit recording technology as opposed to PCM, an analogy might be serial vs parallel. think of it this way - a CD is 44.1KHz sampled rate X 16 bits "width" while SACD/DSD is 2.8224 MHz sampling rate X 1 bit "width".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD
http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dvd-audio-vs-sacd-vs-cd
http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-feature-articles/audio-related-articles/battle-of-the-discs-dvd-audio-vs.-sacd.html

again I'm not trying to be critical, if you're thinking hi-end gear, it might be helpful to your discussions to learn some more about the hi-rez lossless audio formats & the recordings you're speaking about smile.gif

DVD-Audio can contain std MPEG 2 DVD video, like concerts, and static on screen menus while SACD has NO video or on-screen capability. it's audio only.

for proper DVD-A playback you'll want a video connection to see the menu's, HDMI certainly is the best option. but you *could* even use component or even composite video but you'd still want an HDMI connection for multichannel hi-resolution audio so there'd be no point to using an analog video connection. if you're a 2 channel only guy, then you can use optical/coax digital. but for multichannel, you'll need HDMI.

Thank you this was a great explanation.

What is LPCM for 2ch and LPCM Multi?

The choices of bitstream, Source Direct off/on50 or 100kHz, AFDM...

Lot to learn. I've read the manual over an over. Some above are unable to be selected when others are selected. Taking all this in...

UD9004 says manual SACD over HDMI audio signals are output at 44.1 kHz 16-bit. Is this normal for blu ray/SACD players?

Thanks again for all your help.
post #24257 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

confused.gif

any modern universal player that can play DVD-A & SACD plus HDMI 1.3 or 1.4 will get you the full 192 Khz 24 bits on a DVD-Audio and will transfer SACD either converted by the player as PCM or passed to the processor as straight DSD.

you don't have to "do" anything.

as long as the processor isn't downsampling, whatever audio resolution is on the disc will get transferred to the processor at its full lossless hi-resolution sampling rate & bit depth.

the XLR on the Marantz player are hi-quality stereo only so you could connect its XLR's to the AVP as you said, and HDMI for multichannel audio. I don't know if you can assign the video from the HDMI to the AVP's CD audio input in its menu. but if you can't, then you have other options to view the video part...component video being one which could be assigned so that it plays along with the XLR CD input. or use component video and the 5.1 analog outputs from the player (the AVP has the analog-to-digital converters so that Audyssey can be applied to the audio on the multichannel analog inputs but all this seems kind of complicated to me wink.gif I'd suggest the KISS approach, use HDMI and that also gives you everything.

the only thing you'll "lack" using HDMI with the Marantz is not having DenonLink for the ultimate jitter control over HDMI. if you're an analog purist who wants to use the DAC's & HDAM's in the Marantz, the XLR CD connections along with a component video cable would get you very nice 2 ch. you can use that for 2 ch and HDMI for multichannel - best of both worlds!

Thank you so much.
post #24258 of 25955
Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?
post #24259 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?

I will not be doing so.... my friend just recently sold his Anthem D2v (which was upgraded) and got the marantz. Has had it for a little while and is saying he's selling it. Said he's either going back to a D2v or is considering getting a AVP haha. He had thought about getting a AVP after hearing mine but he was enticed by having the new top of the line, guess he found out the hard way that NEWEST isn't always BEST
post #24260 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?
There's not a chance of me making that switch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

I will not be doing so.... my friend just recently sold his Anthem D2v (which was upgraded) and got the marantz. Has had it for a little while and is saying he's selling it. Said he's either going back to a D2v or is considering getting a AVP haha. He had thought about getting a AVP after hearing mine but he was enticed by having the new top of the line, guess he found out the hard way that NEWEST isn't always BEST
The relative pricing of the AVP compared to the Marantz ought to be enough to indicate that the Marantz isn't REALLY a flagship product. As should the fully balanced design of the AVP compared to the non-fully balanced design of the Marantz. I suspect the Marantz is a pretty good product at its price point, but it really isn't fair to expect it to match or top flagship products like the AVP and Anthem D2v.
post #24261 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

I will not be doing so.... my friend just recently sold his Anthem D2v (which was upgraded) and got the marantz. Has had it for a little while and is saying he's selling it. Said he's either going back to a D2v or is considering getting a AVP haha. He had thought about getting a AVP after hearing mine but he was enticed by having the new top of the line, guess he found out the hard way that NEWEST isn't always BEST

Spot on sk576c

Your mate shouldnt have a problem selling it. Its good to see he was impressed by the AVP.
post #24262 of 25955
Double Post
post #24263 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

There's not a chance of me making that switch.

Good to see gsr smile.gif
Quote:
The relative pricing of the AVP compared to the Marantz ought to be enough to indicate that the Marantz isn't REALLY a flagship product. As should the fully balanced design of the AVP compared to the non-fully balanced design of the Marantz. I suspect the Marantz is a pretty good product at its price point, but it really isn't fair to expect it to match or top flagship products like the AVP and Anthem D2v.

+1
post #24264 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?

No way for me. The AVP is probably the most satisfying piece of AV gear I have ever owned. The build quality is beyond reproach and unrivaled by anything else I have seen. As much as I liked it before the upgrade, the addition of XT32 in the upgrade really cemented it for me. I honestly don't see anything out there that would make consider, for even a minute, selling my AVP. And the thing I love the most is it just works, with very few hiccups unlike my previous high end processor which was constantly having issues and endless firmware updates.
post #24265 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk576c View Post

I will not be doing so.... my friend just recently sold his Anthem D2v (which was upgraded) and got the marantz. Has had it for a little while and is saying he's selling it. Said he's either going back to a D2v or is considering getting a AVP haha. He had thought about getting a AVP after hearing mine but he was enticed by having the new top of the line, guess he found out the hard way that NEWEST isn't always BEST

Two questions:
Was it SQ or what was the reason to want to go back to the D2v?
Why go back to the D2v not the AVP?
Sorry not familiar at all with the Anthem product line or its price point.
post #24266 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?

Did you just call my AVP a ship ?

If it was a ship i would not be jumping !, Someone would have to make me walk the plank...


Daniel.
post #24267 of 25955
Tomorrow will be my third anniversary of owning the AVP... I would never think of getting rid of it smile.gif
post #24268 of 25955
Still trying to get the best SQ out of my AVP/UD9004. I recently posted these questions and they went unanswered. I value all your experience and knowledge.

What is LPCM for 2ch and LPCM Multi?

The choices of bitstream, Source Direct off/on50 or 100kHz, AFDM?

Lot to learn. I've read the manual over an over. Some above are unable to be selected when others are selected. Taking all this in...

UD9004 says manual SACD over HDMI audio signals are output at 44.1 kHz 16-bit. Is this normal for blu ray/SACD players?
post #24269 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?

Normally I have moved our dedicated theaters components to our family room as I have upgraded over the years. Not going to happen with the upgraded AVP/POA. However, I'm seriously considering getting the Marantz to replace my Sunfire TG4 in our Family room..... SJ
post #24270 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Just curious how many AVP owners have jumped ship to Marantz?

I have just started to get to know my AVP and considered the Marantz before I bought the AVP. However, after reading some tests I decided for the AVP and I am very happy that I did.
I also don't think the Marantz AV8801 can be compared with the AVP.
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