Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 812

Oh, double bass. Got it, thanks.

You'll have your XO set at 80Hz so it's all good.

Since the SACD DSD streams fed by the Denon players through the AVP is missing 10dB of level, I needed a way to compensate for that when playing those discs. And since I use a speaker processor that has all kinds of controls, including a new option to create iPad 'control panels' for it, I embarked on a small project to let me dynamically adjust the bass levels and a few other controls.
So now, onmy iPad I can now control the sub volume and whether the nifty sub-harmonic synth is on or not. I can even mute the sub for demos.

Required the use of one PC to run HiQNet program to configure the setup, my wife who is an artist to give me an awesome background image and of course my trusty DBX DriveRack4800 speaker processor that does the work.

Now I can easily adjust sub level and options from my listening position.

Here's a screen shot from the iPad:

I only have 3 words for you :

NERD, NERD, NERD ...

Daniel.

PS: working on second screen (well multiscreen) apps on ipads at the moment for some european tv stations

Dude, that's the pot calling the kettle 'Black', but i get it

I know you want it ...

Looking forward to seeing your work on the second screen stuff.

cheers,

I assumed full fronts with LFE+Main. Not so?

Looking at that kettle i hope you agree its very suboptimal and i think if we combine our talent we should be able to fix it want to start a project ?

Daniel.

Quote by jam88 from the AV8801 thread, post#1998:

'With the Marantz players that offered an external clock input, you had to buy a third party master clock generator.

The AV8801 uses the hybrid PLL to internally reduced the jitter. While in theory it won't be as effective as the Denon Link, in practice when fed from a player that puts out very low amounts of jitter, like the Oppo 103 as mentioned on a review I read from a french website, it probably won't make that much difference in the real world. Jitter reduction is just one piece of the puzzle, there are other factors every bit as important and some probably more that have an impact on SQ starting with a good low noise power supply, the DACs, well designed analog output stages, the overall attention paid to lowering the noise floor throughout the whole design, etc. Furthermore, using better quality external amplifiers with the 8801 will produce additional benefits. Ultimately the proof is in the pudding. If I thought I could have saved almost $1K by buying the 4520 and had as good a SQ as with the 8801, I would have done it since I don't have any money to waste needlessly.'

I am quoting this, because there was the question here, whether the AV8801 can be compared to the AVP-A1HD. I believe this in an excellent answer. Think of the build quality of the AVP and the symmetrical output stages for the XLRs, the really huge power supply section etc.
I have nothing to add to jam88's post and just wanted to let you know.

I am a 5308CI owner posting in the AVP forum.

After reading reviews on the Denon AVR-4520CI & Maranatz AV8801 and doing my own research, I decided to purchase the upgrade kit for my Denon AVR-5308CI rather than purchasing the 4520CI or the AV8801 Pre/Pro combination. I made that decision because I have a traditional 7.1 HT (F, C, L, SL, SR, SBL, SBR and SW), and not planning to add for additional speakers for height or wide speakers, and the SQ from the 5308CI is pretty amazing. My main reason for purchasing the upgrade kit was for XT32.

I realize the setup is pretty much automatic, but thought AVP owners who upgraded might provide some additional insight on the upgrade or comments on improved SQ.

I've read the Audyssey setup guide posted on the AVS forum and of course, used the audio XT setup on my 5308CI previously. I do have a tripod for the XT32 mic to be placed. Since my tripod does not have a swinging arm, I used a small board between the arm rests of my HT seats to place the mic since a few of the seats are near a wall. Would this have an adverse effect on the Audyssey settings?

My AVR-5308CI will be upgraded tomorrow, and I'll be picking it up on Wednesday.

Many thanks,
Dave

Not sure if I am understanding you correctly but if you are asking about the use of the tripod on a board, I would strongly suggest you get a boom mic stand. This is what Audyssey recommends and you can get much more accurate positioning of the mic with the boom stand. If you are going to spend $1000+ dollars on the xt32/3D update, why not spend another $20-30 on a decent boom mic? You will then know you have the right tool.

Sorry to say that if your AVP software is up to date then the -10dB SACD LF issue was fixed last year with the last firmware upgrade, just as it would have been if you did the 3D upgrade. So not too sure what you are compensating for. Whether it is PCM or any other audio standard all the levels should now be correct. Well at least they are on my AVP.

Nifty bit of iPad work though.
Edited by Digione - 1/21/13 at 5:06pm

Yes, you answered my question perfectly. Can you recommend a good boom mic stand which will connect with the Audyssey mic?

Dave

Check out the Audyssey FAQ in post 1 of the Audyssey thread here on AVS.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1
there are several suggestions for boom stands and mic adapters.

See links below for a mic stand and adapter I bought that work great. I did a lot of fiddling with my furniture and room this past year so I kept it close at-hand in my equipment closet in an assembled state to save time. You can even leave the mic on the stand too but I would recommend you cover it with a ziploc bag and tie it off to keep dust out of the mic.

As the other poster noted, the Audyssey thread is great and you will find some excellent tips on setup and mic placement. If you want to take things to the next level, you can purchase the Audyssey Pro Kit which, I think, comes with a boom mic. The kit costs about US$750 though.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000978D58/ref=oh_details_o01_s01_i00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GWCC4I/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00

I found this very helpful, not placing the mic in the listening positions:
Take a few minutes to review the Audyssey mic positions. From the Manual: Measurements are performed by placing the calibrated microphone (DM-A505Z) successively at multiple positions throughout the listening area. For best results, it is strongly recommended to measure 6 or more positions so that the measurements have the proper spatial weighting. Even if the listening environment is small, measuring at multiple points throughout the listening environment results in more effective correction.

First measurement should always be in the main listening position, The main listening position refers to the most central position where one would normally sit within the listening environment. MultEQ XT uses the measurements from this position to calculate speaker distance, level, polarity, and the optimum crossover value for the subwoofer. Place the microphone at ear height on a tripod or stand with the microphone pointing directly up towards the ceiling. It is not recommended to hold it in your hand. Be sure that the path from microphone to the speakers is not blocked by objects. Avoid placing the microphone close to a seat back or wall as sound reflections may give inaccurate results. My recommendation is to use all 8 positions. 1. Main 2. 4' to the Left 3. 4' to the Right 4. 4' L and 3' in Front 5. 4' R and 3' in Front 6. 3' in Front of Main 7. 3' L and 3' Behind 8. 3' R and 3' Behind .LF.....C.....RF L.......M.......R .LR..........RR

The other option is to use each seating position in a similar layout ...4..........5 2.......M......3 .7......6......8

Check the "Auto Setup" section of the manual.

If you get too big of an adjustment at one of the points or in one of the speakers, try repositioning the speaker a little.

Audyssey mic locations info:

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.

Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.

Basic starter-links:

The Audyssey homepage.

The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ

The Audyssey setup guide

====
Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement

The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.

The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.

It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.

The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.

MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.

After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.

For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.

Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results

Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.

It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.

Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.

The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.

In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.

Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.

Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.

The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.

The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.

Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.

(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)

Sent from my iPhone

^^

There are already several excellent Audyssey threads and you seem to have posted this in the wrong area.

@dahlgren
The link I posted in post # 24345 of this thread (just a few posts back) will take you to
the "Official" Audyssey thread which is very active and also has a FAQ in post #1. It's one of the longest and busiest threads on AVS.

I thought he originally needed help with mic placement.
Edited by dahlgren - 1/22/13 at 11:41am

I'm one of those that forces the AVP to check for updates every couple of months. Just did a check in Dec. 2012 and all is up to date.
Remember, this for DSD streams not PCM, there was a fix for PCM IIRC, but seems this DSD via DenonLink from a Denon player (ironically enough) is still missing the LFE level adjustment.

So in my AVP, setup this is required.

I hope they did correct it in the hardware upgrade, as I plan to do that soon. In the meantime, the iPad controller works just fine for listening sessions featuring my SACD discs.

Then I am very confused as the firmware upgrade that was released last year was to fix the -10dB LF Issue specifically for DSD over Denon Link. When I and many others installed it (search this thread) it immediately resolved the long standing LF issue with SACD's over DL. It was not a hardware issue just a software upgrade was required to resolve the issue and was also included in the 3D firmware upgrade. I am streaming from either a Denon 5900 or A100 and I have no LF issues with SACD DSD over DL having low LF levels.
Confused.

I share your confusion to some degree because I bitstream DSD via Denon Link 3/4 from my DBP-A100 to an AVR-4311 and after reading posts in this thread that the -10 dB LF issue had been addressed for the AVP, I guess I became hopeful that Denon would extend the firmware fix to the 4x10, 4311 and 4520. Since a lot of these Denon Link players (DBP-4010, DVD-A1UDCI, DBP-A100) do DSD to PCM over HDMI @ 44,1 kHz/ 16 as opposed to the 88.2 or 176.4 kHz on most other players, bitstreaming DSD over Denon Link is what most of us do. I am getting ready to file a complaint with Denon Customer service along with another forum member Sound of Mind regarding this -10 dB LF issue on Denon AVRs, now I am curious if you AVP owners have been taken care of or not regarding this? Thanks.

P.S see 4311 thread for some discussion about this issue (posts by me and Sound of Mind a couple of days ago). Sorry for the slightly OT posts here...

^^

No issues here with SACD bass on my 3d/xt32 upgraded AVP and my Denon 5910CI via Denon link or my Oppo -93 via HDMI. I should also say that I didn't have any SACD bass issue before the upgrade either (with the same equipment). I don't mean to imply that there is or was not a problem or that others may be wrong, simply that I personally have never had this issue on my setup.

There has been quite a bit of discussion on this issue on this thread and the Audioholics thread for several years now. Nothing was ever conclusive AFAIK and not everyone seemed to have noted the issue in the first place.

I always had the low LF issue with the AVP when streaming DSD over DL3 from my 5900 prior to the software upgrade/patch and had to compensate for it by boasting the sub by +10dB. As soon as I loaded the firmware patch last year that problem went away as I and several others posted on this thread way back. Since then I have bought an A100 and this provides exactly the same LF perfromance as my 5900 streaming DSD over DL3. So as of now boasting the LF by +10dB would result in way too much bass, I am therefore not too sure what is going on, furthermore I am very suprised that this issue also applies to other new Denon AVR's.

I've ordered the Marantz stack for our family room. However, will be hard to compare to the AVP/POA as the rest of the system is far superior in our dedicated HT. SJ

Is -10db reference listening level? Also is it normal to have to raise the sub-r & sub-L to +7db for DVD-A & SACD using direct mode XLR in? Yes I do like bass I'm a bass player. I expect bass pedals from ie Genesis Selling England to shatter my teeth as I would say it should. Audyssey is engaged. It does sound incredible, clear and precise, exceptional sound stage, no double bass as I've heard others talk about, crossover at 80hz LFE+main. I hear things I've never heard before in the mix. So im not complaining its wonderful. Just wondering. Oh, I put my subs back to -2db for movies. -2db was what Audyssey set both to. I do raise master volume for SACD to around +2db at times and DVD-A a bit over -10db, not as high as SACD for realism. Dynamic EQ/Volume off for everything.
Edited by dahlgren - 1/25/13 at 9:51am

Is it possible or is it too much to compare the 8801 in your HT room?

Maybe we are looking at the difference between "reference" and "preference".

With Audyssey the system is calibrated so that when the volume control is at 0dB the system will create exactly the same SPL as was created during the original mix, this assumes that your speakers can handle such a level and so can your ears. For many this level is way too high for home listening so many set the volume lower than the 0dB reference position, in my case it is typically -10dB or even lower. Now this calibration only applies to film audio where there is a known reference that all studios are supposed to work to. There is no such reference for music so the volume level you set depends totally on how the mix was created.

If you are used to to lots of bass or even a "bassoholic" then turning the LF/subs up is your choice and if that what makes you happy then just go for it. I normally run with dynamic EQ on as do many others. This is because DEQ compensates for the hearing performance of your ears at low SPL's particularly at low frequencies and dynamically adjusts levels to subs and surrounds based upon the content in order to present the listener a version of audio that maintains the original frequency balance inspite of it now being at a lower SPL than reference. DEQ can also work very well on music, but there is no known reference level, so it may be necessary to alter the DEQ reference point from 0dB to -5/10/15 in order to get the preferred LF response. Note I said preferred here.


All that matters is that once you have calibrated your system correctly to reference that you can always get back there from preference.

Given the amount of work that would take, tooooo much. I will let everyone know what I think, but the rooms and other equipment would not be the ideal AB type of comparison. SJ