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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 816

post #24451 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

I listened to a bunch of SACDs today. The Marantz is very impressive. The AVP just better. I would play the music in one room and then hop to the other with the same disk. Not the best AB type of comparison process. smile.gif Guess if I gave the AVP a 10, the Marantz would be a 8.5. It really does sound good, even better than my initial observations. Just not quite the AVP in my opinion. But I'm glad I got it for our second system. Some of the difference is going to be the room and other components. SJ

Why post its better if you clearly stated the gear in the other room is better! Do use and yourself a favor and put it in the other room and then tell us which is better, I'll bet you may get a 9.5 or solid 9:D
post #24452 of 25955
One a totally different subject. Does anybody know of any films or test discs that can exercise the EXT1 and EXT2 INPUT displays on the AVP front display? These are used to show additional discrete channels, I assume height and wide.

I bought Expendables 2 to test this but apparently the H/W data is contained within the 7.1 DTS HD mix and is not held in discrete additonal channels. The film was OK and it has been optimised to be decoded by 11.1 NEO-X. It certainly showed how the heights could be used as additional channels, I do not have wides. I think that it is the first BluRay that has been encoded in this fashion. It also has a test section to demonstrate the use of the H/W channels when running 11.1 NEO-X.
post #24453 of 25955
^^
Paul, not understanding your question because my EXT2 (I'm using WIDES) comes on even for matrixed or non-discrete sources. Is yours not coming on at all?
post #24454 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

^^
Paul, not understanding your question because my EXT2 (I'm using WIDES) comes on even for matrixed or non-discrete sources. Is yours not coming on at all?

I am referring to the EXT1/EXT2 displays on the LHS of the front display not the EXT1/EXT2 on the RHS of the display that shows what speakers I have got connected and what processing I have activated, they work just fine.

So in short at no time have I seen those INPUT EXT1/2 displays light up ONLY the OUPUT EXT1/EXT2.

I am using DL4/DL3 so if you have got the INPUT EXT1/2 on the LHS of the display to light up I would really like to know how and what your input sources was, program material and connection, HDMI or DL for audio? I understood that they would ONLY light up if there was an ADDITIONAL one or two pairs of discrete channels above and beyond the current max of 7.1 held on Blu Rays.

Does this help?
post #24455 of 25955
^^

I think you will have to find a known BR or test disc somewhere. biggrin.gif

Seriously, I have a few BR discs and I will see if any of them are encoded and post back. Probably not too many out there yet. As you noted, the Expendables 2 is not a true discrete height/wide.

Will
post #24456 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

^^

I think you will have to find a known BR or test disc somewhere. biggrin.gif

Seriously, I have a few BR discs and I will see if any of them are encoded and post back. Probably not too many out there yet. As you noted, the Expendables 2 is not a true discrete height/wide.

Will

With the AVP now being discontinued I am concerned about ongoing firmware support. I would just like to make sure that however Denon decided to implement/detect these additional two channels actually works and adheres to some standard that might get implimented in the future. Maybe the decoder just looks for more than 7.1 (9.1/11.1) and simply recognises them as additional channels. I would like to know how the decoder knows if it is a H or W channel? Presumbaly there is some metadata supporting/in the additional streams that tells the decoder accordingly. Otherwise it looks like their maybe another firmware upgrade in the future.biggrin.gif

If you find anything please let me know.
Edited by Digione - 2/11/13 at 10:09am
post #24457 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

With the AVP now being discontinued I am concerned about ongoing firmware support. I would just like to make sure that however Denon decided to implement/detect these additional two channels actually works and adheres to some standard that might get implimented in the future. Maybe the decoder just looks for more than 7.1 (9.1/11.1) and simply recognises them as additional channels. I would like to know how the decoder knows if it is a H or W channel? Presumbaly there is some metadata supporting/in the additional streams that tells the decoder accordingly. Otherwise it looks like their maybe another firmware upgrade in the future.biggrin.gif

If you find anything please let me know.

Hi Paul,

there is another BR-disk with 11.1 on it: Dredd. I own it and it is quite different - imo - to Expendables 2, I also have this disk. Both disks have the optimized 11.1 Neo:X soundtrack on it. I also use heights only and found it quite convincing.
This works with the matching decoder to the track, in this case DTS Neo:X. The additional channels are matrixed into the L/R channels for the LH respective LR channels. Same goes with the surround channels - at least this is my information. I may please quote Rogers answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

They are not restricted in their capability -- it is just how a new signal is mixed into the existing channels. That new signal may be the same as any other signal carried in the soundtrack.
If that ambient sound is audible with direct 7.1 playback, then that is an aspect of the mix.

If that ambience s only apparent when Neo:X is used, then we are talking about the decoder. Neo-X is a newer breed of surround decoder, unlike PLII or Logic7. Those are wideband decoders (no frequency selectivity in the signal path), whereas Neo:X (like Neo:6 before) are frequency selective. That means sounds in part of the spectrum can be handled differently than other sounds in different parts of the spectrum, all at the same time. It's like having multiple decoders running in parallel.

According to what Roger wrote, you can see these additional channels as full channels. I guess that they are not discrete is due to the BD spec, which defines up to 8 channels and not 11.
I don't think there will be new decoders soon and I guess you can enjoy your AVP still a bit longer. However, I guess this was the last update for the AVP.
It is fine as it is and I personally don't think, I need more.

I also don't think that there will be larger surround sets than 11.x. I mean you need a lot of space and many speakers and most tracks are still 5.1. I think the next evolution will take some years. We have now 3D, 4k and 11.1. That should be it, for some time. But this is only a guess.
post #24458 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Why post its better if you clearly stated the gear in the other room is better! Do use and yourself a favor and put it in the other room and then tell us which is better, I'll bet you may get a 9.5 or solid 9:D

Please he at least owns both setups we see many people making claims on much less. He outlined how 'fair' the compare is from the start again more than most people do.

I welcome the feedback he is providing its much less biased than most. who compare based on stuff they owned or heard or heard about...

So SJ was this with or without room correction on both setups ? and 2 channel a assume.

Daniel.
post #24459 of 25955
I tested both 2 channel and multi channel. With and without room correction. AVP/POA was clearly the winner over the AV8801/MM8077. 2 channel without room correction and multichannel with. Maybe I should not have reported about this because the setups are really different and It would crazy for me to try and do them together for a better comparison! So, it is one mans opinion. I used SACDs that I'm very familiar with and used when I purchased my new KEF Reference speakers a couple of years back. I listened to the same tracks on many different setups and know the content. SJ
post #24460 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post



I also don't think that there will be larger surround sets than 11.x. I mean you need a lot of space and many speakers and most tracks are still 5.1. I think the next evolution will take some years. We have now 3D, 4k and 11.1. That should be it, for some time. But this is only a guess.

I am really happy with my 9.2; I have no space for wides. My earlier comments were really because I hate having functions on hardware that I cannot exercise to see if they actually work, its the engineer in me. smile.gif

I may have to pester my engineering contact at Denon to see if I can get some information on how the INPUT EXT 1/2 are activated. If I find anything out, I will post it.

My A/V room is a 3D free zone; and until there is some REAL 4K material that hasn't been compressed to death and some projectors that are actually 4K, not pretend, that I can afford, then I'm finished for now.
post #24461 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

.... then I'm finished for now.

I seriously doubt that.wink.gif
post #24462 of 25955
Yeah, my wife thinks that after every upgrade. smile.gif
post #24463 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

I tested both 2 channel and multi channel. With and without room correction. AVP/POA was clearly the winner over the AV8801/MM8077. 2 channel without room correction and multichannel with. Maybe I should not have reported about this because the setups are really different and It would crazy for me to try and do them together for a better comparison! So, it is one mans opinion. I used SACDs that I'm very familiar with and used when I purchased my new KEF Reference speakers a couple of years back. I listened to the same tracks on many different setups and know the content. SJ

Don't be silly you are posting this in our own thread and like i stated you base your review on more info than most do. To me its very good news for the marantz yes it probably has its limits if i read the 8801 thread its both in end result but also in features and build quality but it also shows us what D&M could have done if they pushed a head with the APV-CIX a few years ago. I think they made a mistake (one of many) they could have owned the 2k/3k pre/pro market based on the work they had done with the AVP in 2007.

Daniel.
post #24464 of 25955
^^

Maybe someone should start an AVP VS 8801 thread...............Sorta like Predator VS Alien.
post #24465 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

^^

Maybe someone should start an AVP VS 8801 thread...............Sorta like Predator VS Alien.

Nah they are both fine products and can share information you can clearly see the same background in some of the high and lows. Again its a pity that denon didn't push the AVP-CIX. I think they are good value something i have more problems with if i look at some other contenders.

Daniel.
post #24466 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

I am really happy with my 9.2; I have no space for wides. My earlier comments were really because I hate having functions on hardware that I cannot exercise to see if they actually work, its the engineer in me. smile.gif

I may have to pester my engineering contact at Denon to see if I can get some information on how the INPUT EXT 1/2 are activated. If I find anything out, I will post it.

My A/V room is a 3D free zone; and until there is some REAL 4K material that hasn't been compressed to death and some projectors that are actually 4K, not pretend, that I can afford, then I'm finished for now.

Yes, I completely agree. I also didn't jump on the 3D wagon and I will not, until not a really convincing 3D system has been developed. However, I don't think that this will need any more than HDMI 1.4 and 4k - Full HD 3D. REAL 4k will take a long time until there will be a disc format to carry the data, may be MPEG5 etc. But I don't see anything major, the AVP could not offer in the near future or even mid-term, I mean next three years. Except that it is no 11.1 AV-Pre-Amp but I have the same situation as you Digione, I can not place wides.

For me, it is also a pity that Marantz shall take over the lead for high-end equipment in the D&M group. But may be, this has its reasons and Marantz has the still the development teams, working on separates and Denon disbanded the teams after the AVP/POA. This is just a guess but it is a pity. May be the AVP/POA was too expensive and not sold well on the market, also just a guess.

However, I am very happy with mine and really enjoy this machine.
post #24467 of 25955
The only thing that will make me change the AVP is if it breaks down or Dolby ATMOS decides to make it to the home.
post #24468 of 25955
If my AVP breaks, I will get it repaired. Nothing any current processor out today offers that betters the 3D-updated AVP, for my situation.
post #24469 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

The only thing that will make me change the AVP is if it breaks down or Dolby ATMOS decides to make it to the home.

I agree but have strong doubts that ATMOS will ever make it to the home. What I read about it, it seems it needs a lot more processing power than available in any AVR currently available. However, technology is changing rapidly and who knows if the next development will be the introduction of ATMOS for the home in a smaller package than for commercial cinemas.
I guess Dolby will do something to keep up with DTS or they wait and see, whether 11.1 will be successful or not. I think it is more a niche technology than for the masses.

Wasn't Daniel writing something about this here some time ago? About the recent developments inside of Denon. Or was this just thinking loud, I don't know?
post #24470 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

If my AVP breaks, I will get it repaired. Nothing any current processor out today offers that betters the 3D-updated AVP, for my situation.

From my experience once something is repaired its never the same. Other things tend to creep up and fail after ( sometimes that usually due to the technician not doing his job properly)
post #24471 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

I agree but have strong doubts that ATMOS will ever make it to the home.

I think it will be possible, it could be something we will see 5+ years from now.
post #24472 of 25955
I found this on wikipedia: ' the technology will initially be geared towards commercial cinema applications only, but may later be adapted to home cinema.'

Which underlines what you wrote. Let's see...
post #24473 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

I found this on wikipedia: ' the technology will initially be geared towards commercial cinema applications only, but may later be adapted to home cinema.'

Which underlines what you wrote. Let's see...

Well something is bound to happen. It will be intresting to see what audyssey will do also wether they stay on board in the recivers market or someone else comes into the party to compete.
post #24474 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Well something is bound to happen. It will be intresting to see what audyssey will do also wether they stay on board in the recivers market or someone else comes into the party to compete.

Can you be more precise, what other company you mean? Haven't heard any rumors about this.

I mean Audyssey is not flawless... smile.gif
post #24475 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Can you be more precise, what other company you mean? Haven't heard any rumors about this.

I mean Audyssey is not flawless... smile.gif

I'm just speculating, who knows what could happen in the future. There is no competitor as such that I know of yet, but there always could be a possibility.
post #24476 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I'm just speculating, who knows what could happen in the future. There is no competitor as such that I know of yet, but there always could be a possibility.
There are a few companies offering expensive equivalents to Audyssey (though some of them involved significant manual effort to setup) - it wouldn't be a shock to see 1 or more of them come out with a more affordable version of their technology that AVR manufacturers could license and use as an alternative. Even if it's still more expensive than Audyssey licensing, it could possibly give AVR manufacturers a higher-end alternative for their top models. Pioneer already uses their own in-house MCAAC which seems to get pretty positive reviews.
post #24477 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

There are a few companies offering expensive equivalents to Audyssey (though some of them involved significant manual effort to setup) - it wouldn't be a shock to see 1 or more of them come out with a more affordable version of their technology that AVR manufacturers could license and use as an alternative. Even if it's still more expensive than Audyssey licensing, it could possibly give AVR manufacturers a higher-end alternative for their top models. Pioneer already uses their own in-house MCAAC which seems to get pretty positive reviews.

Anthem have their own too?
post #24478 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Anthem have their own too?
Yes - Anthem calls theirs ARC. And Lexicon also has their own (though they aren't exactly relevant in the surround sound processor market these days).
post #24479 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I seriously doubt that.wink.gif

You were of course correct, I didn't even last a couple of days.smile.gif

I just got my projector ISF calibrated by Kevin Miller and I then just had to buy the Darblet video processor because of Chris Deering's and a few friends reviews. biggrin.gif

Works really well set to HD 40-50%. I won't review it here as there is a whole thread dedicated to it.
Edited by Digione - 2/19/13 at 7:09am
post #24480 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

You were of course correct, I didn't even last a couple of days.smile.gif

I just got my projector ISF calibrated by Kevin Miller and I then just had to buy the Darblet video processor because of Chris Deering's and a few friends reviews. biggrin.gif

Works really well set to HD 40-50%. I won't review it here as there is a whole thread dedicate to it.

We must read the same magazines.wink.gif I read about the Darblet in a magazine. I also purchased my AVP based on Kris's review in that very same magazine. Bad news for my budget is that he is now raving about the Parasound JC1 mono blocks. This madness must stop!
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