Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 821

Okay, so then I was able to confirm with Denon as well that Sub EQ HT is in fact NOT included with the 3D/XT32 Upgrade.

What I do is assign all my subs as sub one ( running 4 ) calibrating them together to equal 75db. Works very well. So I'm actually running 9.1 instead of 9.3.
Edited by Franin - 3/4/13 at 5:00pm

I had wondered about the SubEQ too because I never read where it explicitly said it was part of the AVP.

So the bottom line is that what we have is better than SubEQ or in lieu of..........?

I tried to ask Chris in Ask Audyssey willyj but I've just read that he's doing research and to subscribe to his webinars.

As I already wrote, it is not better, it is just different. If you pray to the god of NEW: SubEQ HT is the new. SubEQ HT measures the subs with a different method, however, this doesn't mean 'better' to me.
Personally, I like to have control over what a program for sound EQ does. As I already wrote, for me, Audyssey likes to be a 'black box'.
However, this whole debate is - IMO - more a philosophical question rather than a technical question. You can see this, by the 'optional' nature of SubEQ HT as Chris wrote.

I also remember that a reviewer in Germany wrote, that it is best for the AVP to connect all subs to one sub output of the AVP using Y-cables and this gives best performance and control of LFE output. Then you clearly are at par with SubEQ HT. It is not used for one sub.
However, I believe that asking Chris this question, will give you the best answer. I really trust him.

Frank, you are doing what this reviewer from Germany proposed. I haven't tried it yet, but your experience testifies it. Then, SubEQ HT has no presumed advantage. Both subs - or four in your case - are measured together, like for SubEQ HT.
Edited by Ganymed4 - 3/3/13 at 6:26pm

The beauty about the AVP you dont use Y cables Just assign Sub 2 and Sub 3 as Sub 1

Definitely works well

Connecting the dual subs to a "Y" splitter is different than what Sub EQ HT is doing as Chris notes below in explaining the difference between level matching dual subs separately first before using XT vs. using Sub EQ HT with XT32 ....

OK, got it

Yes, this is true. The subs can not be tuned individually. You are right.

But if you don't use opposite positions and use them like an array in one place, it should still work well. However, what you write is absolutely true.
Edited by Ganymed4 - 3/3/13 at 6:40pm

Yes that syncs with my admittedly limited understanding of the basis for the technique of EQing the subs while they are firing together. It is related to room acoustics and your having multiple subs playing basically the same content at the same time. The low freq sound waves generated by the subs interact not just with the room (producing nulls and peaks), but interact with each other, likes ripples from multiple pebbles hitting the surface of a pond. That latter interaction can be seen if one measures the freq response in the room while they are firing together and the subs are moved to various locations.

Most of us a re familiar with a "sub crawl" wherein one finds a "good spot" in the room for a single sub-a spot that produces fairly smooth bass as it is not producing severe peaks and nulls. The same concept applies to multiple subs. The goal is to find spots for the subs where the wave interaction lessens the peaks and dips as measured in the room. I've referred to that as a "measured sub haul".

If you have matching subs equidistant from MLP with matched volume settings then hooking them up to a single sub out produces the same result. If not, then the subs firing together produce a response in the room that cannot be adequately taken into account, and thus cannot be accurately EQ'd, if you're measuring and EQing them strictly one by one. So SubEQHT pings them first individually for level and distance but not for any EQ. It then pings them together for EQ.

Agreed.

Well what we did first is pos the subs in there perfect spot using his RTA equipment ( He is a HAA calibrator ) , calibrating them as one. His equipment showed excellent result. Applied the Audyssey XT32 and it works very well. Actually was meant to go for QSC EQ's but have not a good understanding how they work it wasn't worth going down that track.

This Method works very well for me, I guess its not for everyone.

I can not agree more with what your are writing. That is the concept and it might be difficult to achieve. Agreed!

Well this news definitely squashes any enthusiasm I previously had for getting dual subs. Sub EQ HT sounds like very useful technology, and I'm really surprised Denon left it out of the 3D AVP update.

Right, in my understanding, it depends on the room, the location of the subs and how your set-up is. This is - IMO - quite tricky and difficult to solve by a room correction program. Therefore, I don't see, that SubEQ HT is the salvation in general. This is one method to find a better way to have the 'bass' right at home.
But still. I think that the Denon people were right to choose for not to deploying SubEQ HT in the AVP-A1. My personal opinion is, that it doesn't have this much impact and change compared to the 'traditional' method. If you are tuning in each sub separately, it has for me the same effect than tuning in together.
I found, that the Denon AVP is in any means better than the Onkyo. Even in the sense of SubEQ HT vs. separate measurement.

I couldn't hear any difference between Onkyo and Denon regarding the subs .Honestly you don't need SubEQ HT. The AVP A1 is one of a kind and sounds 'breathtaking' without SubEQ HT-

Agreed, the AVP is incredible in all respects. I suppose the main benefit would be taming overlapping frequency anomalies of both subs' simultaneous output. But careful placement could be just as effective. Just thought it sounded like a interesting technology that would have given me a better excuse to invest in a second sub.

I can't help but add a comment on a different solution to handling woofers with an AVP and XT32 that I use in my system.

One of these days I will get my new HT room finished and I will make a more complete report. One of the design requirements (to meet WAF standards) was no speakers on the floor and minimal external wiring (see speakers choices below), The room is 9.75 L x 5. 8 H x 2.6 H (32 x 19 x 8.5ft) with a suspended acoustic tile ceiling and deeply textured walls. I choose a pair of Paradigm RVC-12SQ built in subs placed about 4.5 m from the front of the room (screen end -- 120" screen) built into each of the two sidewalls. I used Paradigm's built in sub enclosures as well. The subs are therefore to the left and right side of the seating area (3.5-4.5 m from the screen). The pair of subs is fed by a Paradigm X-850 850w Class D sub amp. The amp is fed by a single sub output from the AVP giving me a 9.1 system. Before connecting the sub-amp to the AVP I ran Paradigm's PBK sub management software which is much like running the Audyssey correction. I then connected the sub pre-amp output from the AVP which was set to one sub and ran the XT32 Audyssey room correction.

The speakers and amps are not yet broken in, the furniture and drapes aren't all in place, nor are the room treatments installed. That said the bass measures flat and sounds great. In fact, I am ready to quit right here and just listen happily. My point being that there are a variety of ways to deal with subs and get excellent results. I wouldn't stress too much over any one equalization system or another or on the number of subs or sub outputs. Every room and system is different and you have to be willing to experiment a bit with subs -- playing with placement just wasn't an available option for my situation. When the room is finished and everything is all sorted out and broken in I will report again. Maybe I will feel differently then. I may even add more subs--who knows?

Other system components are Wyred4Sound and D-Sonic Class D amps, Oppo BDP-103 player, and wall mounted Gallo Reference Strada II center and sides mated with A'Diva Ti wides, sides, and backs. I am so far very pleased with this system.

Quite frankly nothing I have heard compares with the upgraded AVP and I plan to be with it for a very long time. My only minor regret is that the AVP can't run 11.1 since I have the wiring and amp channels to run 11.1. Sometime in the future if I get restless to tinker and optimize, I will try width versus height channels to see which I like better. But as I have said before, the AVP has killed my need to upgrade.
Edited by AudioBear - 3/3/13 at 9:22pm

That is correct Denon Hong Kong confirmed it today.

Chris at Audyssey warned me about this issue some time ago and advised me to keep my external Audyssey Sub EQ, which runs XT32, driven by one sub output from the AVP. So I manage to get the best of both worlds by first equalising my two subs with the Audyssey SubEQ then running the XT32 in the AVP using Pro. The double DAC conversion was not to be considered relevant or audable by Chris so I have never changed the setup. I suppose the combined XT32 + XT32 gives me XT64 and according to my measuremsnt is ruler flat to about 15Hz.

I have dual subs in opposite corners (front left and front right) of the room. Are you guys suggesting I get the subs volume set the same (75db) and run them both as sub1 (assign sub2 as sub 1 also)? Right now, I have them sub1 and sub2 on my 3d/xt32 upgraded AVP.

Are there any soundtracks that are x.2 rather than x.1 where this might be a problem (assigning them both as sub1)?

^Willy,
I'm no expert but here's my opinion on your query. It's hard to say if it would make much audible difference. It really depends on the room and of course how the current sub placements interact in the room. For ex., if you have effective bass traps it probably wouldn't matter much. If not, it could be worth a try. Here's what I'd do. I'd use Network Save on the current config and label it on my HD. I'd write down the the trims and distances on the current sub channels. After rerunning Audyssey, I'd Save that config, again properly labelled for convenient recall and comparison. I'd also then try manually reentering the current values of the sub trims and distances.

However, a caveat-making comparisons and tuning your system by ear is really difficult. Do you have a way to measure your room/system's performance? By that I mean REW, OmniMic, XTZ, etc. Even rerunning Audyssey pro before graphs can give a fair idea of what's going on. Something objective would be very useful in guiding your sub setup.

There is no x.2 LFE, there is only 1 LFE channel. Stereo bass for music content is yet another complex topic and I don't worry about that myself with my dual subs. I use SubEQHT in the A100/4311.
Edited by SoundofMind - 3/4/13 at 9:07am

There is never anything more than one LF sub channel (0.1) so driving all your subs from one output is not a problem.

As I understand it with no SubEQ then all subs should ideally be the same distance from the MLP and EACH should measure the same (75db reference) at th MLP also during EQ. So the answer to your question is yes. The distance issue can often change depending upon your desire to move subs around after EQ in order to improve the LF response.

The advantage of driving ALL subs simultaneously during EQ is that the final EQ should take care of any interactions between all subs and the room.

^^

I no longer have any bass issues with movies and digital music and my center channel dialogue issue has been fixed as well. My only remaining issue is a strong sub "thump" when playing vinyl at times. I have tried DynEQ and DynVol but it still exists. I am using my subs with my vinyl rig because I like the bass it provides for a lot of my old vinyl records.

I may try to run sub2 as a sub1 assign and see what results I get.

Thanks.

I too play a lot of vinyl. Can you be more descriptive of the "thump" and what causes it. The problem that I had was that VLF rumble from some cuttings caused my cones to over extend so I had to deliberatley switch in a VLF filter for my phono feeds. It removes everything below about 15Hz. This was not rumble from my turntable...perish the thought.

Right. The advantage of Sub EQ HT is that it could correct overlapping ripples/frequencies that you are getting at the MLP from having two subs. Consider two stones being dropped on a smooth lake. Where those ripples crash into each other, you could have problems, and Sub EQ HT tries to fix those.

Which leads me to another question... assuming the space/cost of running dual subs makes that option less favorable (for me), is anyone out there running a bass transducer with their AVP? I just ordered a Seaton SubMersive HP, and although I'm sure it will do quite well in my application, I'm thinking about exploring a transducer for those time when I need to keep overall volume lower because I have sleeping kids.
Edited by Sam S - 3/4/13 at 10:22am

^^
Sounds similar to my issue. It is a very low frequency. I can hear it above everything else. It is like the sub is too loud but even if I cut if way back, I still hear the thump. It is very isolated or limited frequency. Almost like someone is banging on the wall or running up the stairs. It doesn't last long and it isn't throughout the listening session. It is limited to certain records and even certain songs on the record.
I too thought maybe it was turntable rumble but it is a Rega P9 mounted on a rigid wooden shelf and my experience with rumble would be something that was always present, especially noticeable during quiet passages. This is actually only noticeable when music is playing. I am running it through a Fosgate Signature all-tube phono stage into my AVP. It is confined to my vinyl setup: I don't hear it at all with any other sources. The subs are matching Infinity Prelude MTS subs.

Maybe it is in the tubes............I can always switch it out with the one built into the AVP and see if I can isolate it. Just haven't had the time to play around with it yet.

I know transducers only from a friend, who is using them together with a Marantz 7005. They are working well but can not replace a real LFE bass. It just 'kicks your butt' when there should be very low bass. This works, is a nice effect but I don't see it as a substitute for a really strong subwoofer or subwoofers. For the AVP I don't have any experience. Have you tried Dynamic Volume from Audyssey? I never used it, but it is said, it should do the same trick as the Night Listening Mode of the AVP.

That was a smart move, because you don't hear 15 Hz and the wave is over 30 feet - I guess - which means you could 'feel' it only if sitting more than 30 feet away from your speakers. This is 'subsonic' and not audible any more. So a very low High-Pass-Filter is always a good idea.