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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 833

post #24961 of 25955
whats the display ? thats probably more the culprit ! what are output settings on the oppo. what are video settings on the avp ?
post #24962 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I guess this is also why i didn't want to report this rumour here, But you have to understand D&M was/is being refocussed so it makes perfect sense they are working on a new (shared) platform if they want to recapture some of the lower and mid range you have to have a wide base. One trick a larger combined company can do is buy more parts, reuse designs be better at the software etc etc but you need to keep moving so there has to be a first fully shared codebase/platform i am sure and a followup 'A1' design might be a good testing ground even if they decide never to release it. What has me doubting is the timeframe like i stated the last A1 was known to be in development for 4 years before the release. I still think they might be leaking this from D&M to see how people react.

Again this info comes from one source its like a apple rumour at best smile.gif

Daniel.

yep 3 generations of the avp so far and they have been all been approx 10 years apart. seeing the last one was released 2007,
http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2007/high_end_report_thcr_1.shtml

and 3 years earlier we started to get sniffs of it in 2004,
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ces-2004-denon-preview-flagship-av-component-prototypes.html

stands to reason then 10 years later in 2014 good chance we'll start to get hints of an avp-a2 ! biggrin.gif

and a launch 10 years later from 2007 in 2017 smile.gif

if we're lucky who knows that might be a year or two earlier !
post #24963 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

yep 3 generations of the avp so far and they have been all been approx 10 years apart. seeing the last one was released 2007,
http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2007/high_end_report_thcr_1.shtml


stands to reason then 10 years later in 2014 good chance we'll start to get hints of an avp-a2 ! biggrin.gif

and a launch 10 years later from 2007 in 2017 smile.gif

if we're lucky who knows that might be a year or two earlier !

I remember that areadvd report when it came out. We were all getting excited at DTV smile.gif

Well if there is a new one next year it will be Interesting to see what they offer.
post #24964 of 25955
hi frank ofcourse you were the one that dug that up for us. got it on the radar as with the next bit of news when the prototypes turned into a commercially released product. smile.gif

looking forward to what sniffs of the next avp we start to get over the next year smile.gif
post #24965 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

hi frank ofcourse you were the one that dug that up for us. got it on the radar as with the next bit of news when the prototypes turned into a commercially released product. smile.gif

looking forward to what sniffs of the next avp we start to get over the next year smile.gif

Yes will be keeping an eye out
post #24966 of 25955
Thoughts on the next AVP

Since we are speculating about the next AVP-class pre-amp, here are some thoughts I had about what I’d like to see.

First, the job of a great processor is to handle and decode the latest codecs, and in a world where $300 receivers handle all current surround codecs and even stream high-rez FLAC, a statement piece needs something to really distinguish it, so I would want to see support for the new vectorized 3D audio streams, such as Dobly Atmos and whatever new vector format DTS is cooking up.
But this introduces new challenges, as how many output channels will it support? To me, a statement piece distinguishes itself by handling a high-end, complex system, say one with 16 channels minimum. Ideally, it would support up to 32.
In addition to vectorized audio, I expect the very latest in room correction as well. Given their support for Audessey, we should see whatever they are working on that goes beyond XT32.

Now, a box with 32 outputs is going to be a beast, if not impossible, as the cost of that much DSP and D/A is high, to say nothing of the back-panel real-estate. So I expect a modular approach, with the base unit supporting 16 channels, and an optional expansion chassis with another 16 outputs and the associated DSP and D/A in it.

Other core features of the processor revolve around input selection and output direction, so 8 HDMI inputs (min, maybe 10), and four matrix switched HDMI outputs that can be used for multiple zones or mirrored displays, or even watching one thing on the PJ, and another on a monitor.

I’m always torn about video processing, as that’s an ever moving goal post, but one would think a flagship piece should have a decent video processor in it. And there are some nice ones these days, such as the piece used in the Marantz 8801 (although I’d expect something a bit better/newer in a flagship two years out).

Now, here’s where it might get a little out in the weeds for the ‘mainstream’, but here goes:

With a box (and expansion chassis) that can deliver 32 (or more, just keep adding expansion boxes) outputs, they could allow support for active crossovers in this product. Building on top of the room corrector measurement feature, it could allow ‘speaker correction’ to test the various frequencies and provide an optimized crossover and EQ structure for the target speaker. Then on top of that, one can still run the room corrector for final overall system / room integration.

One final ‘wish’ for crazies like me: Support a MADI output so even larger / custom systems can be built out.

So, what would you like to see in a new AVP ?
post #24967 of 25955
Why not just move to a distributed architecture? In this model the programmable processor sends digital signals (wired or wireless) and you can install as many speakers as you want. The speakers can handle their own digital crossovers, etc. This allows much more flexibility and gets away from all of us having to buy a box that has a lot of features we don't want or need. It might also be best to omit video processing and allow that to be handled by source, display and/or independent video boxes. Such a system would be flexible, extensible, and could be updated to the newest codecs, etc via software.

I guess I am asking if we have arrived at the time when the massive processor box is a dinosaur. Having asked that I have no intention of replacing my AVP anytime soon.
post #24968 of 25955
This may be of interest for anyone looking for an AVP:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/processors-denon-av-a1hdci-flagship-home-theater-processor-2013-05-06-home-theater-55304

Great guy to deal with. I've bought a fair bit of stuff from him. Seems like a decent price considering the upgrade is $1k on its' own.
post #24969 of 25955
Excellent comments, Jonathan and AudioBear. But I would tend more to AudioBear's point of view: Modular and distributed architecture. However, this is - I guess - too expensive for a manufacturer. E.G. think of different DAC boxes, may be four different types of chips and different circuits.
But if you do something like this, you would loose the advantages of mass production. I think this is more something for a smaller and very expensive high end company and not a mass market manufacturer like Denon. We have discussed the number of AVPs in the world before and nobody knows.
But this number would give you an idea of the market for a 10000 bucks pre-pro.

But I like both your ideas. Both sound quite appealing to me.

Personally I have no ideas currently, I think that we will have to wait until some things are ready developed and disclosed to the puablic. There is the H.264 follow-up H.265 which is able to encode HD or 4k with half the data size. There is a limit in HDMI for transmitting 4k with 30 fps, not higher and there are new surround sound formats like the vector based formats, you mentioned Jonathan.
I have my doubts that Atmos will ever make it to the HT market. But who knows?

What I want to say is, that I see some new formats on the horizon, which need some new hardware, which doesn't exist yet. For me, the conclusion is just to wait and see and I also would not exchange my AVP into anything else, currently.

Just my two cents...cool.gif
Edited by Ganymed4 - 5/6/13 at 5:03pm
post #24970 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Thoughts on the next AVP
So, what would you like to see in a new AVP ?

A less is more approach.

I'd want the same meticulous analog output quality including the discrete L/R architecture.

Get rid of the video processing, most displays are suitably compentent on their own....way too much redundancy in the chain already. Just have a straight conversion for a couple of legacy inputs and a HDMI video bypass for any future formats.

While doing that, get rid of most of the outdated video & audio inputs like SVHS, and composite etc.

If they add more channels, make them fuly assignable and Audyssey enabled, including the active bi-amp option.. always thought that would be cool to play with.

Add a competent music streaming interface/gui with android & iPad/Phone support.

Have the latest Audyssey Pro implementation or better..

Done.
post #24971 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

Why not just move to a distributed architecture? In this model the programmable processor sends digital signals (wired or wireless) and you can install as many speakers as you want. The speakers can handle their own digital crossovers, etc. This allows much more flexibility and gets away from all of us having to buy a box that has a lot of features we don't want or need. It might also be best to omit video processing and allow that to be handled by source, display and/or independent video boxes. Such a system would be flexible, extensible, and could be updated to the newest codecs, etc via software.

I guess I am asking if we have arrived at the time when the massive processor box is a dinosaur. Having asked that I have no intention of replacing my AVP anytime soon.

I agree, we posted/talked about this before (use search). I am still waiting for my AVP to return ( i hope soon ). Then new speakers (order this month i hope) then a new projector. By the time i would consider spending 10k again on a pre/pro i just can't see how a non modular design would do for me 2007/2008 is not 2014/2015 the same basic design concept just don't make me move.

Daniel.
post #24972 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

A less is more approach.

I'd want the same meticulous analog output quality including the discrete L/R architecture.

Get rid of the video processing, most displays are suitably compentent on their own....way too much redundancy in the chain already. Just have a straight conversion for a couple of legacy inputs and a HDMI video bypass for any future formats.

While doing that, get rid of most of the outdated video & audio inputs like SVHS, and composite etc.

If they add more channels, make them fuly assignable and Audyssey enabled, including the active bi-amp option.. always thought that would be cool to play with.

Add a competent music streaming interface/gui with android & iPad/Phone support.

Have the latest Audyssey Pro implementation or better..

Done.

This sounds to me like a reasonable down to earth approach and I agree. "Way too much redundancy in the chain already" I also agree strongly. Having two Realta T2 chips and only one is used. Less inputs but more flexible outputs. May be an electronic x-over function?
Yes, I like your ideas.

The much lesser pre/pro already exists. I would say this is the Bryston SP3. But this is 'too much less' for me.
post #24973 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

This sounds to me like a reasonable down to earth approach and I agree. "Way too much redundancy in the chain already" I also agree strongly. Having two Realta T2 chips and only one is used. Less inputs but more flexible outputs. May be an electronic x-over function?
Yes, I like your ideas.

The much lesser pre/pro already exists. I would say this is the Bryston SP3. But this is 'too much less' for me.

For the price of the Bryston why not buy the Datasat RS20i.
post #24974 of 25955
Regarding a replacement AVP, AudioBear, rnrgange, Ganymed4, Danielo, I also agree on a more distributed approach as I was tempted to propose the main AVP output just MADI and then have secondary boxes for DSP, D/A and outputs. But for a company like Denon, that’s probably too sophisticated and complex a system for the dealers to handle. Maybe if they really invested in the UI and interconnection design and made setup simpler, it might fly.

I also agree on reducing the legacy port count and maybe even ditching the video processor, but as long as any legacy video is in the chain, you probably need some basic videoProc, and at these prices, might as well make it half way decent. As long as there are 100% bypass/shutoff modes the remove it from the signal chain, no problems having it there for those that need it.
post #24975 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

For the price of the Bryston why not buy the Datasat RS20i.

I didn't mention, because I don't know it so well. But if the R20i is also in the range of 10.000 - which I don't know - then I think it is definitely worth a look. I just checked, they are made in the UK, but I don't know why there are not more present in the on- and offline magazines or news in Europe then?

PS: I just checked and it costs 16.000 English Pounds. But this may be the basic version only?
post #24976 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

I didn't mention, because I don't know it so well. But if the R20i is also in the range of 10.000 - which I don't know - then I think it is definitely worth a look. I just checked, they are made in the UK, but I don't know why there are not more present in the on- and offline magazines or news in Europe then?

PS: I just checked and it costs 16.000 English Pounds. But this may be the basic version only?

It's modular, can add up to 64 channels. Datasatdigital used to be called DTS, it's a true theater quality in the home, DTS/Datasatdigital created the RS20i from their theater system. The room correction seems complicated though, I think requires an installer. Will do new Auro 3D audio standard, which should come to Home Theater, unlike Dolby Atmos that is designed only for Movie Theater.
Edited by dahlgren - 5/8/13 at 5:46pm
post #24977 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

It's modular, can add up to 64 channels. Datasatdigital used to be called DTS, it's a true theater quality in the home, DTS/Datasatdigital created the RS20i from their theater system. The room correction seems complicated though, I think requires an installer. Will do new Auro 3D audio standard, which should come to Home Theater, unlike Dolby Atmos that is designed only for Movie Theater.

Ive read about Auro 3D, I'm curious to see if any of the new upcoming recievers and pre amp will implement that in its system. At the moment Dolby, DTS and even now audyssey are mainly seen in receivers and pre amps.
post #24978 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Ive read about Auro 3D, I'm curious to see if any of the new upcoming recievers and pre amp will implement that in its system. At the moment Dolby, DTS and even now audyssey are mainly seen in receivers and pre amps.

I would just like to have an AV that doesn't become obsolete. If Datasat is to their word it's the only AV that could stand the test of time.
post #24979 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

I would just like to have an AV that doesn't become obsolete.

I think everybody would
Quote:
If Datasat is to their word it's the only AV that could stand the test of time.

That would be awesome for all Datasat owners.
post #24980 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I think everybody would
That would be awesome for all Datasat owners.

All that is required is enough channel capabilities and updates to new standards, codex's, etc... if 64-bit becomes mandatory then a new system would be required.
post #24981 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

It's modular, can add up to 64 channels. Datasatdigital used to be called DTS, it's a true theater quality in the home, DTS/Datasatdigital created the RS20i from their theater system. The room correction seems complicated though, I think requires an installer. Will do new Auro 3D audio standard, which should come to Home Theater, unlike Dolby Atmos that is designed only for Movie Theater.

This sounds truly impressive and I saw on the web-page, that they have a professional branch, which is obvious for DTS. Really not bad.I will look for a distributor in Germany. Would be interested to get more information about it.

Do you own one?
post #24982 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

It's modular, can add up to 64 channels. Datasatdigital used to be called DTS, it's a true theater quality in the home, DTS/Datasatdigital created the RS20i from their theater system. The room correction seems complicated though, I think requires an installer. Will do new Auro 3D audio standard, which should come to Home Theater, unlike Dolby Atmos that is designed only for Movie Theater.
DTS had no hand in the RS-20i. It was all Datasat by then.

The RS-20i costs double the SP-3 in the US anyway.

The implementation of Dirac Live is "particular" but can be done by the determined owner.

The version of the Datasat AP-20 sold through Barco (AP-24) includes Auro3D decoding, so there is some reason to think it could be added to the RS-20i. But there are other ways to deliver 11.1 discrete audio on Blu-ray if that turns out to be a desirable capability.

Dolby is aiming Atmos at home use, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

if 64-bit becomes mandatory then a new system would be required.
Luckily, no one is talking about audio content beyond 24 bits.
post #24983 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

I would just like to have an AV that doesn't become obsolete. If Datasat is to their word it's the only AV that could stand the test of time.

I realize my AVP is becoming obsolete but I would be perfectly happy if I could upgrade it to HDMI 2.0. If they came out with an AVP2 with HDMI 2.0 I would sell my current 2 AVPs and buy 2 new AVP2s in a heartbeat. It isn't just about tech specs because in many ways my Onkyo Integra prepro matched much of the AVPs specs for about 1/4th the price but it sounded like crap in comparison to the AVP. Denon has proven they can make a wonderful prepro and hopefully they'll come out with an upgrade or a new AVP as the AVP is IMHO by far the best thing to come from Denon in the last decade. They used to make the best optical disc players but frankly I think they've fallen behind others such as Oppo who charges much less for some great players. If Denon drops the AVP then Denon will pretty much be off my radar which is sad as the AVP is an amazing piece of equipment at the heart of my bedroom and living room systems.
post #24984 of 25955
^Despite its inevitable obsolescence, I am still drawn to this model with the XT32 upgrade. The whole point is that there may be some audible SQ improvement to be squeezed out from the post-Audyssey analog preamp section as compard to my AVR A100/4311. I don't have use a pure analog path, rather I use Audyssey Pro to maximize DSP and I like the added SQ of DenonLink4 from my DBP A100. I have a 7.2 DSX wides configuration and enough amps so would simply sell the 4311, buy a new $150 Pro license for the AVP.

Question: Does the XT32upgrade have SubEQHT as an option, ie can you set 2 different subs' individual levels and distances yet EQ them as one sub? I have this in the 4311 and find it useful and effective.
post #24985 of 25955
Another issue, if I may.

Another important objective for me is to move into the 21st century and begin streaming high-rez MC music off a computer.

1. I'm wondering if any of you could enlighten me as as to how well an this model handles streaming HiRes MC music as compared to the 4311?

2. And as compared to the very modern Marantz Pre/pro8810 and/or Denon AVR4520?

TIA
post #24986 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Despite its inevitable obsolescence, I am still drawn to this model with the XT32 upgrade. The whole point is that there may be some audible SQ improvement to be squeezed out from the post-Audyssey analog preamp section as compard to my AVR A100/4311. I don't have use a pure analog path, rather I use Audyssey Pro to maximize DSP and I like the added SQ of DenonLink4 from my DBP A100. I have a 7.2 DSX wides configuration and enough amps so would simply sell the 4311, buy a new $150 Pro license for the AVP.

Question: Does the XT32upgrade have SubEQHT as an option, ie can you set 2 different subs' individual levels and distances yet EQ them as one sub? I have this in the 4311 and find it useful and effective.

No, the XT32 upgrade does not support SUBEQHT. That is one of the reasons I kept my external Audyssey SubEQ, the other was on the advice of Chris at Audyssey.
post #24987 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Another issue, if I may.

Another important objective for me is to move into the 21st century and begin streaming high-rez MC music off a computer.

1. I'm wondering if any of you could enlighten me as as to how well an this model handles streaming HiRes MC music as compared to the 4311?

2. And as compared to the very modern Marantz Pre/pro8810 and/or Denon AVR4520?

TIA

The general consensus is that all build in streaming suck compared to a external solution many of us have given up and just accept that fact. My short playing with the 8801 (same as 4520) has not changed that view. I strongly doubt D&M will ever release a streaming solution that comes close to external options.

Daniel.
post #24988 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

It isn't just about tech specs because in many ways my Onkyo Integra prepro matched much of the AVPs specs for about 1/4th the price but it sounded like crap in comparison to the AVP.

This is exactly my experience but I moved the other way - from Onkyo/Integra to AVP.
post #24989 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

This is exactly my experience but I moved the other way - from Onkyo/Integra to AVP.
Yep - that's what I did as well from Onkyo to AVP because the Onkyo 885 sounded like crap using the same speakers and amps as the AVP.
post #24990 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Dolby is aiming Atmos at home use, too.

Thank you Roger. That's what I've been waiting for. smile.gif
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