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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 834

post #24991 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Thank you Roger. That's what I've been waiting for. smile.gif

Does this mean the Franin is in shopping mode?
post #24992 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

The general consensus is that all build in streaming suck compared to a external solution many of us have given up and just accept that fact. My short playing with the 8801 (same as 4520) has not changed that view. I strongly doubt D&M will ever release a streaming solution that comes close to external options.

Daniel.
Very interesting, thnx for your patience Daniel. Forgive my cluelessness in trying to formulate these questions:
Given an ext streaming solution how do I get the SQ playing an SACD on the DBPA100 via DenonLink, which is up to 24bit192Khz for 2ch and 24bit/96K for 6ch.
Does one use ethernet cable connection from LAN router?
Are their significant differences in the capability of the processor models under discussion to handle that MC HiRes content at the digital level? For ex., what I can find about the 4311 is it can handle FLAC to 96k but does not say stereo or MC.
post #24993 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

This sounds truly impressive and I saw on the web-page, that they have a professional branch, which is obvious for DTS. Really not bad.I will look for a distributor in Germany. Would be interested to get more information about it.

Do you own one?

No just researching 11.1 systems there are few out there.
post #24994 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

No, the XT32 upgrade does not support SUBEQHT. That is one of the reasons I kept my external Audyssey SubEQ, the other was on the advice of Chris at Audyssey.
Ahh, I was vague on that so thnx for clarifying.
post #24995 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Very interesting, thnx for your patience Daniel. Forgive my cluelessness in trying to formulate these questions:
Given an ext streaming solution how do I get the SQ playing an SACD on the DBPA100 via DenonLink, which is up to 24bit192Khz for 2ch and 24bit/96K for 6ch.
Does one use ethernet cable connection from LAN router?
Are their significant differences in the capability of the processor models under discussion to handle that MC HiRes content at the digital level? For ex., what I can find about the 4311 is it can handle FLAC to 96k but does not say stereo or MC.

No problem we don't mind helping people, keep in mind no answer is perfect the AVP is a complex beast and all of us forget little details all the time and someone else jumps in.

I think you mixed up 2 things. When using DL4 on a AVP you don't use the same connection as for streaming. The AVP has 2 RJ-45 plugs on the back but only one is for ethernet (internet). so :

1) DL4 port you connect the DL4 cd/dvd/bluray player combined with a HDMI signal it will bring all then content from it including any sacd format. the denonlink part syncs the clocks to remove jitter.

2) You bring in your Internet over the other RJ-45 plug (ethernet) that indeed hooks up to a router or personally i would place a small (say 8 port) gigabit switch in your AV rack. You hook all your 'internet ready' AV devices into it including the AVP and your streaming solution.

All units AVP,4311, 8801 and 4520 use a network/streaming card from a company called BridgeCo but of different ages the AVP the oldest and the 8801/4520 a newer model. But all are limited they just are not great solutions for streaming (and navigating your music). While i think for example all of these cards are limited to bringing in FLAC at 96khz using a external FLAC decoder doesn't. So most of us 'decode/uncompress' audio formats externally and bring it into the AVP at the speed wanted/needed (including 192/24).

Of the units listed the AVP is by design limited to 24bits and 9.3 channels while the others internally are 32bits and 11.x. But the level of how the 24bits are done is much higher in how its handled and what you can do with it. The AVP allows you much more methods of input and of the models outlined once its inside the unit allows you todo more with it (route, add EQ, subwoofer use, mode pure-direct modes).

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse more,

Daniel.
Edited by danielo - 5/10/13 at 12:37am
post #24996 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

Does this mean the Franin is in shopping mode?

Lol no need to update for me unless its a feature I'm after. Atmos is a feature I've been keeping my eye out for.
post #24997 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

The general consensus is that all build in streaming suck compared to a external solution many of us have given up and just accept that fact. My short playing with the 8801 (same as 4520) has not changed that view. I strongly doubt D&M will ever release a streaming solution that comes close to external options.

Daniel.

for me a $99 apple tv achieves all I need streaming/media wise. I would never expect denon to try integrate what are such cheap options at end of it and what in reality are constantly evolving changing things. cheaper easier to just use an inexpensive add on box that does all you need and upgrade and replace that as capabilities there progress. this approach goes well with the separates philosophy of the avp as well.

look its where you try make something that does everything that you end up with something that does nothing well. things like scaling and streaming etc are easily done with add on boxes I really dont think worth integrating into a processor anymore.
post #24998 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

for me a $99 apple tv achieves all I need streaming/media wise. I would never expect denon to try integrate what are such cheap options at end of it and what in reality are constantly evolving changing things. cheaper easier to just use an inexpensive add on box that does all you need and upgrade and replace that as capabilities there progress. this approach goes well with the separates philosophy of the avp as well.

look its where you try make something that does everything that you end up with something that does nothing well. things like scaling and streaming etc are easily done with add on boxes I really dont think worth integrating into a processor anymore.

Yeah didn't add that part i guess. I use a combination of AppleTV's (hacked and normal) and a mac-mini for all my streaming needs. All of them are hooked into the AVP. I never have and doubt i ever will rely on a internal one. Same with the scaler i have used and am using a external scaler for video.

Daniel.
post #24999 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Very interesting, thnx for your patience Daniel. Forgive my cluelessness in trying to formulate these questions:
Given an ext streaming solution how do I get the SQ playing an SACD on the DBPA100 via DenonLink, which is up to 24bit192Khz for 2ch and 24bit/96K for 6ch.
Does one use ethernet cable connection from LAN router?
Are their significant differences in the capability of the processor models under discussion to handle that MC HiRes content at the digital level? For ex., what I can find about the 4311 is it can handle FLAC to 96k but does not say stereo or MC.

The AVP is limited to 2 channel 16/44 for FLAC via its built-in network interface. As Danielo pointed out, this built-in network interface is less than desirable even when playing lowres flac.

When you talk about using an external streaming device to feed the AVP in digital form, then in most cases, you are talking about 2 channel and mch FLAC hires files which are sent to the AVP from the streamer in PCM format via digital connection (HDMI is required for mch hires).

Not all external streamers can handle hires and/or hires mch files - you would need to check the specs of the one you are looking at to make sure it can handle 24/192 for 2 ch and 24/96 for mch. I use an Oppo -93 which can handle up to mch 24/96 but the user interface is rather awkward and sluggish. Although I don't own one yet, the -103/105 has supposedly improved upon the interface dramatically and also has added dsd playback capability from attached storage.
Edited by WillyJ - 5/10/13 at 6:13am
post #25000 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

Yep - that's what I did as well from Onkyo to AVP because the Onkyo 885 sounded like crap using the same speakers and amps as the AVP.

I misunderstood you then. Then we did the same and I share your impressions wink.gif
post #25001 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

The AVP is limited to 2 channel 16/44 for FLAC via its built-in network interface. As Danielo pointed out, this built-in network interface is less than desirable even when playing lowres flac.

When you talk about using an external streaming device to feed the AVP in digital form, then in most cases, you are talking about 2 channel and mch FLAC hires files which are sent to the AVP from the streamer in PCM format via digital connection (HDMI is required for mch hires).

Not all external streamers can handle hires and/or hires mch files - you would need to check the specs of the one you are looking at to make sure it can handle 24/192 for 2 ch and 24/96 for mch. I use an Oppo -93 which can handle up to mch 24/96 but the user interface is rather awkward and sluggish. Although I don't own one yet, the -103/105 has supposedly improved upon the interface dramatically and also has added dsd playback capability from attached storage.

I own the Oppo 103 and use it exactly for this purpose - streaming or better rendering mulit-channel hi-res files and send it via HDMI to the AVP and let it do it's DAC marvels.
After the last firmware update the 103 is quite fast accessing DLNA servers but the GUI is a bit plain, like DOS, I would say.
DSD seems to be a problem for the Oppo but I don't remember what it was exactly, because I don't use DSD coded files.
post #25002 of 25955
I use my 103 for streaming too. Almost finally caught up on BSG. But I digress. The 103's streaming GUI leaves a lot to de desired. But it works, and that's what counts. I am thinking of getting a Roku 3 though. As for DSD, the 103 can't pass it on HDMI 1.
post #25003 of 25955
If you've got a PC in the mix, consider installing J River Media Center on it, JRemote on your iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad and using that for the UI (I'm pretty sure there's an equivalent Android app out there that works with J River Media Center). J River can then send audio and video through the Oppo BDP-103/105 using the DLNA DMR functionality. The JRemote interface is awesome, especially on an iPad. If you have an Oppo BDP-105, you could also connect the PC to the Oppo via the async USB DAC interface (stereo only at this time) and essentially use the Oppo as the sound card for your PC.
post #25004 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

I am thinking of getting a Roku 3 though.

Try it, you'll like it.wink.gif
Quote:
As for DSD, the 103 can't pass it on HDMI 1.

Is that a bug or will it send it to HDMI 2 or ???
post #25005 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

Is that a bug or will it send it to HDMI 2 or ???
It's a hardware limitation in the QDEO chip. HDMI2 will pass DSD just fine. On HDMI1, the play will convert DSD to LPCM.
post #25006 of 25955
So
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Well, that you are 'not impressed' doesn't surprise me, honestly. Reading about your background, this doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know what others think or say, but there are better sounding units around especially looking at the 2ch ultra-high-end.
However, if you think about the effect of DSPs on the sound and what happens, if you switch them off, the Denon sounds excellent. I mean, if you send a rectangle signal through the amp, watch it in the oscilloscope and switch on the DSPs, most times you see that this rectangle will look less rectangle shaped - jaggies and all this nasty stuff.
What I want to say is, that the AVP A1 does a very good, even excellent job for a unit with all these features. The other AV pre-amps, I heard of, which sound better, lack video processing completely. And this for a good reason. It is the source of many bad influences to the sound.
Therefore comparing 2 ch to fully featured AV pre-amps, does little sense, in my opinion. Per definition - electronics, a 2 ch amp can easily sound better than an AV pre-amp.
However, if you want all the features, you have to compromise. At least this is my point of view.

Sorry. TOTALLY DISAGREE. I was at CES when DTS launched. I've been a home cinema advocate since day one. I used to own the very first high end AV store in Scotland

The AVP is pretty average as a processor and not worthy of the reviews. My Classe SSP300 outperforms it which is a blinking disgrace IMO considering the ravers on here and elsewhere about the AVP. HD sound is not meant to sound as bad as it is thru the AVP and if you disagree then I really feel you need to sharpen your expectations.

My AVP is now with a highly rated German mod company called Cinemike who advised me to get the AVP in the first place. What they 'forgot' to tell me was just how average the standard AVP sounded. It's coming back in a couple of weeks. My fingers are heavily crossed....

Oh and BTW What on earth makes u think I'd compare the Avp to a 2 channel setup??..?.
post #25007 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

So
Sorry. TOTALLY DISAGREE. I was at CES when DTS launched. I've been a home cinema advocate since day one. I used to own the very first high end AV store in Scotland

The AVP is pretty average as a processor and not worthy of the reviews. My Classe SSP300 outperforms it which is a blinking disgrace IMO considering the ravers on here and elsewhere about the AVP. HD sound is not meant to sound as bad as it is thru the AVP and if you disagree then I really feel you need to sharpen your expectations.

My AVP is now with a highly rated German mod company called Cinemike who advised me to get the AVP in the first place. What they 'forgot' to tell me was just how average the standard AVP sounded. It's coming back in a couple of weeks. My fingers are heavily crossed....

Oh and BTW What on earth makes u think I'd compare the Avp to a 2 channel setup??..?.

I do know that CineMike considers the AVP the best starting point because of its basic buildup. Ive visited him several times and my AVP is with him at the moment because of a broken digital board. If you feel he did you wrong by advising a AVP and 'forgot' to tell you how bad it sounded why would you spend 5800 euro for the upgrade at his place ?

Daniel.

PS: and yes i have heard (like anyone should considering getting the upgrade done) them side by side in his setup.
post #25008 of 25955
I think it was an oversight on their part. They TOTALLY agree with me that the standard AVP is, well, pretty average -BUT these guys are as u certainly know the real deal"

Now does the modded AVP outperform the Bryston- which they and others also claim? We'll see.....
post #25009 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

I think it was an oversight on their part. They TOTALLY agree with me that the standard AVP is, well, pretty average -BUT these guys are as u certainly know the real deal"

Now does the modded AVP outperform the Bryston- which they and others also claim? We'll see.....

You do understand they sell upgrades right ? I think they are 'the real deal' in that they know their stuff yes and if i can i would have them work on all my stuff in the future. I just can't see them 'forgetting' to tell you what they think or spending that kind of money without listening. There are many area's where the AVP beats the Bryston (and any other unit) there is a reason why they still feel the avp is the best starting point. I have asked if there is anything out there at the same basic starting level and their answer so far each time was no.

Daniel.

PS: I do hope the upgrade brings you the sound you want, if not move on.
Edited by danielo - 5/11/13 at 2:28am
post #25010 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

So
Sorry. TOTALLY DISAGREE. I was at CES when DTS launched. I've been a home cinema advocate since day one. I used to own the very first high end AV store in Scotland

The AVP is pretty average as a processor and not worthy of the reviews. My Classe SSP300 outperforms it which is a blinking disgrace IMO considering the ravers on here and elsewhere about the AVP. HD sound is not meant to sound as bad as it is thru the AVP and if you disagree then I really feel you need to sharpen your expectations.

My AVP is now with a highly rated German mod company called Cinemike who advised me to get the AVP in the first place. What they 'forgot' to tell me was just how average the standard AVP sounded. It's coming back in a couple of weeks. My fingers are heavily crossed....

Oh and BTW What on earth makes u think I'd compare the Avp to a 2 channel setup??..?.

good luck on your upgrade. re 2ch wise the avp is actually pretty damn decent in my opinion. re classe comparisons my cousin years ago ran a ssp300 and upgraded to the ssp600 which was a clear improvement. he then considered the ssp800, I was actually in that comparison where he demoed back to back to an avp since he had heard mine. the avp showed the 800 a clear set of heels and as classe owner he kept the amps but went for the avp instead. with any of these classe processors the cp700 is actually a better machine if 2ch pure analog is what your after.
post #25011 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Yeah didn't add that part i guess. I use a combination of AppleTV's (hacked and normal) and a mac-mini for all my streaming needs. All of them are hooked into the AVP. I never have and doubt i ever will rely on a internal one. Same with the scaler i have used and am using a external scaler for video.

Daniel.
Is your Mac connected via HDMI to your AVP for sound? Thanks. SJ
post #25012 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecossecableman View Post

So
Sorry. TOTALLY DISAGREE. I was at CES when DTS launched. I've been a home cinema advocate since day one. I used to own the very first high end AV store in Scotland

The AVP is pretty average as a processor and not worthy of the reviews. My Classe SSP300 outperforms it which is a blinking disgrace IMO considering the ravers on here and elsewhere about the AVP. HD sound is not meant to sound as bad as it is thru the AVP and if you disagree then I really feel you need to sharpen your expectations.

My AVP is now with a highly rated German mod company called Cinemike who advised me to get the AVP in the first place. What they 'forgot' to tell me was just how average the standard AVP sounded. It's coming back in a couple of weeks. My fingers are heavily crossed....

Oh and BTW What on earth makes u think I'd compare the Avp to a 2 channel setup??..?.

Whoa - this is a long time ago, that this statement was made. Don't know anymore in which relation I wrote this. However, I don't think that the AVP is 'average', however, if you think so, please.

I guess it depends from which point of view of the 'ladder' you look at it. There are better units than the AVP, sure but none which offers the same versatility and features in this quality. At least this is my - I have to confess - limited point of view.

Cheers to Scotland!
post #25013 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

It's a hardware limitation in the QDEO chip. HDMI2 will pass DSD just fine. On HDMI1, the play will convert DSD to LPCM.
Good to know. Thanks. Glad the AVP has plenty of HDMI inputs.
post #25014 of 25955
Is it fair to say the AVP offers a very smooth presentation and that pre pros such as Bryston or Anthem Statement are sharper and better suited for action movies, especially if very smooth and neutral speakers are be used?
post #25015 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post

Is it fair to say the AVP offers a very smooth presentation and that pre pros such as Bryston or Anthem Statement are sharper and better suited for action movies, especially if very smooth and neutral speakers are be used?

Well, I don't know the Bryston SP3 myself as well as the Anthem Statement D2v. I know the AVP a bit and as Daniel always writes, the AVP is quite complex regarding the settings.

I read some tests about the Bryston and the Anthem but this doesn't mean much. However, a pre/pro these days is a quite complex machine. It has DSPs, it has firmware which is rarely perfect from the beginning and it needs a lot of licenses for all the formats and things of today's world of formats.

The Anthem and the Classé are may be comparable with the AVP. The Bryston is something different in my understanding. It is a pure sound processor and fits to those, using external video processing and has some drawbacks in usability. Classé I simply don't know but heard they sound very 'pleasing', not analytical or neutral - please correct me, if I am wrong.

The Anthem is using a different room correction than the AVP, the Classé has parametric EQs - please correct me here too. Thank you.

Well, overall and just form the specs, for me the AVP has everything I need and also the power of D&M in the back - see the 3D upgrade. Also a large company that can provide the manpower for firmware updates and this stuff. Also, the AVP is pretty mainstream in usability, it was a role model for the current AVRs of Denon and Marantz.

Anthem, Bryston and Classé are smaller companies - I guess - who build more stand alone models. Anthem offered an upgrade for HDMI 1.4 and Classé has an actual pre/pro with 1.4. This leads me to the conclusion that the AVP is not the top model and it seems according to the tests, I read, the Bryston is better sound wise, but for me personally, if I see the Denon AVP as a package, it fulfills my needs best and I keep on 'common ground' regarding the mainstream AVRs.

Well, just my opinion and may be somebody checked all of the mentioned units. But it is always also personal preference, which plays a big role in my understanding and may be other things - specific needs, outlook, feeling for the brand - you name it.
post #25016 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

I read, the Bryston is better sound wise

Well reading about it is based on someone's POV. You need to listen to it. Just because someone says its better doesnt mean its better for you. It's like someone saying you need to add more salt, what if I don't want more salt. I have no problems with my AVP for music and HT. Calibrated well in a right room sounds awesome.

Quote:
Well, just my opinion and may be somebody checked all of the mentioned units. But it is always also personal preference, which plays a big role in my understanding and may be other things - specific needs, outlook, feeling for the brand - you name it.

That's the Main thing that's why we're all here. As long as your happy but if you think there is better best to sell your AVP and buy something else. You won't hurt our feelings, there are many that have moved on ( some due to the new features).

Every now and then the gate gets left open and the N.J. come in and have a go. Don't let that discourage you unfortunately it happens on this thread.
post #25017 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Well reading about it is based on someone's POV. You need to listen to it. Just because someone says its better doesnt mean its better for you. It's like someone saying you need to add more salt, what if I don't want more salt. I have no problems with my AVP for music and HT. Calibrated well in a right room sounds awesome.
That's the Main thing that's why we're all here. As long as your happy but if you think there is better best to sell your AVP and buy something else. You won't hurt our feelings, there are many that have moved on ( some due to the new features).

Every now and then the gate gets left open and the N.J. come in and have a go. Don't let that discourage you unfortunately it happens on this thread.

Very well said, Franin. And it seems the N.J.'s all find their way here.
post #25018 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

If you feel he did you wrong by advising a AVP and 'forgot' to tell you how bad it sounded why would you spend 5800 euro for the upgrade at his place ?

Daniel.

That's quite strange because if he was advised it was quite good why didnt he just return it if he wasnt happy with it. If someone told me this unit was awesome and I replied what if at home Im not happy with it ? is there a return policy? and they replied no I would not buy it let alone upgrade it.
post #25019 of 25955
Exactly. If I didn't like a certain piece I'd return it. Definitely not spend more money to upgrade it. That makes no sense at all.
post #25020 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

That makes no sense at all.

It certainly doesn't.
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