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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 847

post #25381 of 25955
Technical nonsense?

Well you seem like an expert and i am not.

Maybe it doesn´t work for a standard AVP because everything else on the upgraded board and other parts match with the OP-amps?


You live in Germany and followed the German forums so the demo weekend was announced. This could be an opportunity for you to find out about what's going on. Entrance and questions are always free.







Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganymed4 View Post

Which is business-wise very understandable but technical nonsense. I also doubt this and agree to Digione's point of view.

Where is the proof? Then I won't try it, because it would have been for me not more than a try.
post #25382 of 25955
Id also bet Its mainly to do with the upgraded OP-Amp's that make the biggest sonic difference in the CM Upgrade AVP-A1.. But in most cases takes quite A bit of R&D/ careful component selection "OP-Amp's" Caps & what not before the Desired Optimised goal can be achieved ..

Also Keep in mined that the DSP's Used in the latest AVP-A1HD 3D upgrade board are the older ADSP21367 x3,
While the latest Marantz AV8801 uses the New "Latest?" Ver DSPs ADSP21487 x 3
& DSPs Play A huge part in the quality of Surround sound reproduction if that's also important to you ...
post #25383 of 25955
I do not dispute that using higher grade passive components like capacitors and resistors can impact the amplifiers performance due to improved dielectric/inductive performance and lower noise. This is also true of active components like op amps and DSP's that may have higher open loop gains and much faster processing speeds thereby improving signal to noise ratio, various types of distortion and bandwidth. Even reduced master clock jitter will produce a reduction in audible artifacts. However, if there is an audible improvement that is heard over the "basic" AVP when setup up in an IDENTICAL acoustic and electrical environment, listening at EXACTLY the same head position, then with the correct measurement techniques and equipment the differences can be measured, it is not MAGIC. I for one would like to see them.

It is amazing how just a very small change in your acoustic or electrical listening environment can be perceived by the listener. Having been involved in a range of listening tests including double blind, the affects of pre-suggestion, expectation, pre-conceived ideas or preferences, can often influence the outcome of the test. I am often skeptical of these claims unless I see some technical evidence for the improvement. Until then my cash stays in my pocket. smile.gif
post #25384 of 25955
Digione FWIW I Agree with your posts & Ganymed4 about this mod smile.gif as I was referring in my above post..

I tried to fined what OP-Amps the Marantz AV8801 uses as apparently there better & prob whats used in the CM AVP upgrade ?..
post #25385 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Id also bet Its mainly to do with the upgraded OP-Amp's that make the biggest sonic difference in the CM Upgrade AVP-A1.. But in most cases takes quite A bit of R&D/ careful component selection "OP-Amp's" Caps & what not before the Desired Optimised goal can be achieved ..

Also Keep in mined that the DSP's Used in the latest AVP-A1HD 3D upgrade board are the older ADSP21367 x3,
While the latest Marantz AV8801 uses the New "Latest?" Ver DSPs ADSP21487 x 3
& DSPs Play A huge part in the quality of Surround sound reproduction if that's also important to you ...


It's not what dsp's are being used, but rather how they are implemented , along with the analog stage.
And that makes the difference in sound. Newer dsp's don't always make the difference.
If the analog stage is messed up , the best dsp will not make it sound good. .
Opamps work in the analog domain, mostly, and different opamps frequently require different voltages ,or accesories to perform correctly.I'm not convinced that this kind of opamps swap can perform better than those denon selected in the first place. Ofcourse it could work as a possibility , but it's just a guess , what the outcome will be.
Only a direct A-B comparison between two machines (one modified and one stock) would reveal the differences. If any.
post #25386 of 25955
There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than the totalitarian world view of the "objectivist", which boils down to:

"If I can't measure it/explain it, then you can't hear it.."

If prevailing theories do not fully explain our perception of reality, should we reject our perception as erroneous?

Or should we simply accept that we need to put more effort into our theorising until it adequately correlates with our consistent, repeatable observations?

Al J.
post #25387 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Id also bet Its mainly to do with the upgraded OP-Amp's that make the biggest sonic difference in the CM Upgrade AVP-A1.. But in most cases takes quite A bit of R&D/ careful component selection "OP-Amp's" Caps & what not before the Desired Optimised goal can be achieved ..

Also Keep in mined that the DSP's Used in the latest AVP-A1HD 3D upgrade board are the older ADSP21367 x3,
While the latest Marantz AV8801 uses the New "Latest?" Ver DSPs ADSP21487 x 3
& DSPs Play A huge part in the quality of Surround sound reproduction if that's also important to you ...

The dsp's in the 4520, 8801 and AVP 3d are the same in fact probably designed by the same people at the same time, it also uses 87's

350x700px-LL-2b201ce6_dsp-avp.png

You can find more info by using search we discussed it several times.

On the op-amp story i think CM could do a op-amp only upgrade if it wanted but that would mean new research since the old mod already replaces 300 parts and not having these in would probably effect the end result.

Daniel.
post #25388 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Jones View Post

There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than the totalitarian world view of the "objectivist", which boils down to:

"If I can't measure it/explain it, then you can't hear it.."

If prevailing theories do not fully explain our perception of reality, should we reject our perception as erroneous?

Or should we simply accept that we need to put more effort into our theorising until it adequately correlates with our consistent, repeatable observations?

Al J.

As an ex professor from a very large engineering university I have NEVER seen a piece of equipment that I could not show, with the correct set of measurements/ techniques and equipment, why it performed or sounded differently to another. By the way this also applies to cables...another "interesting" topic. As an example I was able to show that wrapped soldered joints are more inductive than simple parallel soldered joints and yes it only mattered at RF frequencies. smile.gif

The idea that you can hear something that cannot be measured is a little absurd from where I stand...sorry! These are not theories just a series of complex measurements made using signal techniques and analysis that is relevant to what you are searching for.

Fortunately some of us have to remain grounded in reality.
post #25389 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Jones View Post

There is absolutely nothing more frustrating than the totalitarian world view of the "objectivist", which boils down to:

"If I can't measure it/explain it, then you can't hear it.."

If prevailing theories do not fully explain our perception of reality, should we reject our perception as erroneous?

Or should we simply accept that we need to put more effort into our theorising until it adequately correlates with our consistent, repeatable observations?

Al J.


I suppose this is your answer to my post.
But i don"t quite understand how did you have come to those conclusions , and specially to the one "If I can't measure it/explain it, then you can't hear it.."
How do you know that we can't measure it ?Everything can be measured, specially theese days.
I never implyed all those. I just explained in plain words how those things are being used , and how implementation along with other parts affects the sound.
Whether we like it or not electronics are being engineered on a certain way.And that has nothing to do with our perception.
post #25390 of 25955
Am i alone in being happy that this thread tries to stay away from this discussion ? That is the reason i am/was careful with the CM stuff (when i had info) because it leads to this never ending discussion.

Personally i think you can/could measure the differences CM does (i heard them several times in his setup) but the starting point of no processing at all left me with mixed feelings since for me in my home it becomes a weird compare.

Daniel.
post #25391 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Am i alone in being happy that this thread tries to stay away from this discussion ? That is the reason i am/was careful with the CM stuff (when i had info) because it leads to this never ending discussion.

Personally i think you can/could measure the differences CM does (i heard them several times in his setup) but the starting point of no processing at all left me with mixed feelings since for me in my home it becomes a weird compare.

Daniel.
+1
post #25392 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Am i alone in being happy that this thread tries to stay away from this discussion ? That is the reason i am/was careful with the CM stuff (when i had info) because it leads to this never ending discussion.

Personally i think you can/could measure the differences CM does (i heard them several times in his setup) but the starting point of no processing at all left me with mixed feelings since for me in my home it becomes a weird compare.

Daniel.

+2
post #25393 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Am i alone in being happy that this thread tries to stay away from this discussion ? That is the reason i am/was careful with the CM stuff (when i had info) because it leads to this never ending discussion.

Personally i think you can/could measure the differences CM does (i heard them several times in his setup) but the starting point of no processing at all left me with mixed feelings since for me in my home it becomes a weird compare.

Daniel.

Amen. +3
post #25394 of 25955
In a previous post I reported that I was getting random popping sounds from my center and left/right speakers and I had isolated them originating from my AVP. I purchased a Marantz 8801 to replace the Denon while it goes in for repair. Last night I installed the MArantz and to my surprise, I'm getting 60 Hz hum in all the channels. I have a 7.2 setup and only use balanced outputs from the preamp. Anyone have any ideas what gives?
post #25395 of 25955
You don't hapen to have a fluorescent lamp near , do you?
post #25396 of 25955
No. I wish it was that simple.
post #25397 of 25955
Ok try disconnect everything , as you probably know and let the marantz connected to the power amp. Try switching inputs to see if the problem occurs in sone or all inputs without signal. If it doesn't connect one by one the sources . Pretty basic troubleshooting. Aslo check if the power amp ,if near affects the prepro.
post #25398 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by fperra View Post

In a previous post I reported that I was getting random popping sounds from my center and left/right speakers and I had isolated them originating from my AVP. I purchased a Marantz 8801 to replace the Denon while it goes in for repair. Last night I installed the MArantz and to my surprise, I'm getting 60 Hz hum in all the channels. I have a 7.2 setup and only use balanced outputs from the preamp. Anyone have any ideas what gives?

Also getting it over the headphone output ? when no amp is connected ?

Daniel.
post #25399 of 25955
Hello, it has been a while since my last post. Hope all are well and the AVPs are performing as expected.

My question is in regards to using the Apple Airport Extreme as my router. I am having no connectivity issues other than I cannot access the Denon Web Control. I changed the port setting on the Extreme and now have access to Web Control but cannot save the config file. Does anyone have experience with the Extreme and know how to set this up to where I can save the file? Thanks in advance for your responses!

KrellAV
post #25400 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

Id also bet Its mainly to do with the upgraded OP-Amp's that make the biggest sonic difference in the CM Upgrade AVP-A1.. But in most cases takes quite A bit of R&D/ careful component selection "OP-Amp's" Caps & what not before the Desired Optimised goal can be achieved ..

Also Keep in mined that the DSP's Used in the latest AVP-A1HD 3D upgrade board are the older ADSP21367 x3,
While the latest Marantz AV8801 uses the New "Latest?" Ver DSPs ADSP21487 x 3
& DSPs Play A huge part in the quality of Surround sound reproduction if that's also important to you ...

The dsp's in the 4520, 8801 and AVP 3d are the same in fact probably designed by the same people at the same time, it also uses 87's

350x700px-LL-2b201ce6_dsp-avp.png

You can find more info by using search we discussed it several times.

On the op-amp story i think CM could do a op-amp only upgrade if it wanted but that would mean new research since the old mod already replaces 300 parts and not having these in would probably effect the end result.
Daniel.
ahh Ok thanks Daniel, good to know the AVP 3D Upgrade board uses the later DSP's..
It's Strange though because I actually got the DSP P/N's Directly off the image of the 3D upgrade board from the UK Denon site,
which must be wrong from what you have shown.

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HomeTheatre&SubId=AVAmplifiers&ProductId=3DEditionUpgrade
post #25401 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

ahh Ok thanks Daniel, good to know the AVP 3D Upgrade board uses the later DSP's..
It's Strange though because I actually got the DSP P/N's Directly off the image of the 3D upgrade board from the UK Denon site,
which must be wrong from what you have shown.

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HomeTheatre&SubId=AVAmplifiers&ProductId=3DEditionUpgrade

No thats because what you see is the whole digital board (including plugs for the cables). the upgrade board is about 1/4 of the size and connects to the 3 connectors
you see and bypass the old dsp's. Here is one of the discussions we had before the upgrade was announced (then still guessing on some facts):

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1006957/official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-and-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread/21150

Daniel.
post #25402 of 25955
Something new that I did not know about the my 5308... (pretty sure it will apply to the AVP-A1HDCI as well)


Just bought the new Sony Xperia Tablet Z. I was fooling around with the Walkman music app and notice the "throw" feature. It allows to stream music to another device. And guess what popped up? "Denon Network Audio"

To my amazement, I quickly selected Net/USB source on my 5308. Ta-da!!! Streaming music from my Xperia front-end. (all my music is on my DLNA-compliant NAS)

Way cool! I always hated the 5308 front-end to selecting music. So slow and cumbersome.

I also went to my desktop PC, opened up Media Player, right-clicked on a track, Play to Denon Network Audio popped up too!
post #25403 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by pleung18 View Post

Something new that I did not know about the my 5308... (pretty sure it will apply to the AVP-A1HDCI as well)

Yes, this lineup and most newer network enabled Denon AVR/AVP's are also DLNA Network Renderers. Which as you discovered one can 'play to' the AVP by directing from a DMC (controller) app on your desktop or mobile device.

I still find the network playback subsystem in the AVP to be a bit too slow, even when externally driven. Also, it's limited to 2ch content for FLACs. Sound quality is awesome though.
But it's all moot now that I have an Oppo BD-105 - man that thing covers the digital audio sources bases so completely its become my only source these days.
post #25404 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Yes, this lineup and most newer network enabled Denon AVR/AVP's are also DLNA Network Renderers. Which as you discovered one can 'play to' the AVP by directing from a DMC (controller) app on your desktop or mobile device.

I still find the network playback subsystem in the AVP to be a bit too slow, even when externally driven. Also, it's limited to 2ch content for FLACs. Sound quality is awesome though.
But it's all moot now that I have an Oppo BD-105 - man that thing covers the digital audio sources bases so completely its become my only source these days.

I can't agree more, because I also have the Oppo103 and it easily outweighs the small disadvantages of the AVP regarding the formats and speed of the network functions. Daniel explained the reason, some time ago.

For me, the Oppo and the AVP are a perfect match. I use the excellent DACs in the AVP and the Oppo does all the IT stuff.
post #25405 of 25955
media players come and go and are constantly being out done by your latest thing of the week. for a piece of av like the avp that has a life span of what 5 years already and for some of us another 4-5 yet to go its impossible to build in anything media player wise that will go the distance.

and to add to that any $100 media player will out do any media abilities built into anything these days. with the next avp in a few years I hope denon dont even try to build in a media player. in the world of separates try leave it for a separate add on device smile.gif
post #25406 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

media players come and go and are constantly being out done by your latest thing of the week. for a piece of av like the avp that has a life span of what 5 years already and for some of us another 4-5 yet to go its impossible to build in anything media player wise that will go the distance.

and to add to that any $100 media player will out do any media abilities built into anything these days. with the next avp in a few years I hope denon dont even try to build in a media player. in the world of separates try leave it for a separate add on device smile.gif

You are right. This is a very good point. You just need some software and hopefully software upgradable units in the future. Some can do that already today, however, there is a hardware dependency, if I am not mistaken. But due to HDMI, you can feed everything digital to the AVP or the 'new AVP' and everything is digital.
Very good idea. I also think, that a pre/pro or even an AVR don't need these media abilities. I am always disappointed when I read the list of supported media and therefore the lack of formats. A small box, like e.g. the WD-TV for a low price can do more than most AVRs and pre/pros. The Oppo is better but the concept is the same.

I really like your idea. smile.gif
post #25407 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krellav View Post

Hello, it has been a while since my last post. Hope all are well and the AVPs are performing as expected.

My question is in regards to using the Apple Airport Extreme as my router. I am having no connectivity issues other than I cannot access the Denon Web Control. I changed the port setting on the Extreme and now have access to Web Control but cannot save the config file. Does anyone have experience with the Extreme and know how to set this up to where I can save the file? Thanks in advance for your responses!

KrellAV
I use Firefox for Mac OSX instead of Safari, works OK that way.
post #25408 of 25955
Most Denon owners seem to have better luck using Firefox with MAC OSX rather than Safari. smile.gif
post #25409 of 25955
^ +1
You cannot save or load config files from Safari with OSX. Firefox works just fine....with OSX.
Edited by Digione - 8/31/13 at 1:18pm
post #25410 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

^ +1
You cannot save or load config files from Safari with OSX. Firefox works just fine.

Thanks to all. I used my PC instead and it worked just fine. Thanks again!
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