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Official Denon AVP-A1HD/AVP-A1HDCI and POA-A1HD/POA-A1HDCI owners thread. - Page 252

post #7531 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Well, I suppose generating perfect sine wave could make a power supply not work as hard, and definitely would eliminate any A/C noise, but if the power supply is properly designed, like you would assume the AVP's PS would be, it should do the job properly with the walls' A/C or in my mind it's defective.

When they deal with design parameters of audio and video power supplies aren't noise and distortion removal at the top of the list? How can it be a proper design if they know that no home on the planet is supplied with perfect sine wave A/C and they don't factor that in as a "baseline"? If a pure sine wave was critical to performance wouldn't every components' power supply be designed to create it?

The same can be said for the input voltage operating range of a power supply, since typical A/C voltage coming into the home can and does vary around 10% it should be designed to operate above that range maybe around 15%. So on a 240v circuit it should adequately operate from 204v to 276v.

I would agree that manufacturers build in a tolerance into their power supplies, and mostly they get it right. However, with my first projector, Sharp subsequently supplied and fitted a redesigned power supply because someone forgot about the tolerance requirements in 240v countries. It is an example of what Joe was talking about that the design team still needs to have the relevant experience.

The issue of the electrical waveform only becomes relevant if we use a UPS. The mains supply should be sine wave, albeit packed with grunge in some areas. Whether a component will sound better from 'cleaned up' power, depends upon what the manufacturers have done themselves. To that end I would also love to know what Denon have done with the AVP in that area.
post #7532 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

thanks Geoff I was also goint to ask about running 2 centres. im sure it should be able to run 2 centres but will there be any benefits in doing so?

I think the best results are by using matching speakers L + R + C speakers. if you use 2 centres they would need to be close together to ensure an accurate soundstage.

I would also steer away from changing the axis upon which speakers were designed to be operated in, eg if you use 3 centres across the front, then they should be left in the horizontal position.
post #7533 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post

I think the best results are by using matching speakers L + R + C speakers. if you use 2 centres they would need to be close together to ensure an accurate soundstage.

I would also steer away from changing the axis upon which speakers were designed to be operated in, eg if you use 3 centres across the front, then they should be left in the horizontal position.

Thanks Tassop, do you think there will be a noticable difference having two centres together?
post #7534 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Thanks Tassop, do you think there will be a noticable difference having two centres together?

If you feel that there is something missing at the moment then an extra speaker would make a difference. But after looking at your setup again I would first try experimenting with your current centre speaker.

To begin with, if it is positioned on the bench like in the photo, I think this could lead to the sound being muddied a little. As a general rule, speakers need to be acoustically isolated from large bench tops etc. I would experiment with different positions including a good quality speaker stand.

Secondly, are the L+R and centre speakers fed the same amplification through the same cables? Ie are they all single wired, biwired or bi-amped? They should be matched if at all possible

Having sorted the above out it I would also look to see if the situation can be further enhanced by using Audyssey LR / bypass or by manually tweaking the centre output.
post #7535 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post

If you feel that there is something missing at the moment then an extra speaker would make a difference. But after looking at your setup again I would first try experimenting with your current centre speaker.

To begin with, if it is positioned on the bench like in the photo, I think this could lead to the sound being muddied a little. As a general rule, speakers need to be acoustically isolated from large bench tops etc. I would experiment with different positions including a good quality speaker stand.

Secondly, are the L+R and centre speakers fed the same amplification through the same cables? Ie are they all single wired, biwired or bi-amped? They should be matched if at all possible

Having sorted the above out it I would also look to see if the situation can be further enhanced by using Audyssey LR / bypass or by manually tweaking the centre output.

Ah the sound is not muddied it was more just asking if anyone has done a second centre, how does it sound? It's more got to do with itchy feet I guess.But from what I've been told a second centre is not advisable.The audio is perfect I just like experimenting.
post #7536 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Ah the sound is not muddied it was more just asking if anyone has done a second centre, how does it sound? It's more got to do with itchy feet I guess.But from what I've been told a second centre is not advisable.The audio is perfect I just like experimenting.

Apologies Frank, I wrongly assumed that there was a problem.

I have heard of people using 2 centre speakers but that was mainly with the small satellite speakers which don't quite cut it IMHO.
post #7537 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post

Apologies Frank, I wrongly assumed that there was a problem.

I have heard of people using 2 centre speakers but that was mainly with the small satellite speakers which don't quite cut it IMHO.


Thats OK mate, I was just at work today thinking first what if I change my fronts to 3 Utopias centre and then the 2 centre idea.I was even looking at Martin Logans but the negotiations were not successful, Seth know about that deal.Have you heard Usher speakers? never heard of them but saw them the other week, they look impressive and the build quality is impressive.
post #7538 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Thats OK mate, I was just at work today thinking first what if I change my fronts to 3 Utopias centre and then the 2 centre idea.I was even looking at Martin Logans but the negotiations were not successful, Seth know about that deal.Have you heard Usher speakers? never heard of them but saw them the other week, they look impressive and the build quality is impressive.

Yes I have heard and seen the Ushers. Excellent IMO. I also think their 2 channel Class A amps are excellent as well.
post #7539 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post

Yes I have heard and seen the Ushers. Excellent IMO. I also think their 2 channel Class A amps are excellent as well.

The guy who has designed apparentley is meant to be a very good speaker designer. I wonder how they will go with the AVP? I was looking at the dance edition but yet to audition. I will though when i get my Furman cut out increased.Some say Im silly to trade my focals in for them as there speakers are made in taiwan vs in house france. I can't see that being an issue if there under the guidance of that speaker designer. Will give a listen though.
post #7540 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

The guy who has designed apparentley is meant to be a very good speaker designer. I wonder how they will go with the AVP? I was looking at the dance edition but yet to audition. I will though when i get my Furman cut out increased.Some say Im silly to trade my focals in for them as there speakers are made in taiwan vs in house france. I can't see that being an issue if there under the guidance of that speaker designer. Will give a listen though.

When you talk high end, the country of origin is immaterial IMO, particularly with speakers. Its the company that makes them which has the greatest impact.

At the level we are talking about, personal preference comes into its own. There is no doubt they will all sound great to different people but the type of sound you are looking for is the right choice.

I changed to Aurum Cantus speakers from PRC ( Volla fronts, Rhythm centre, Leisure 3 surrounds & L2 backs.) I was so blown away with my 2 channel pair of Aurum Cantus Supremes I bought first, I had to redo the theatre as well. I fell in love with the sound and the company's approach to achieving their design goals.

Some of the speakers in their range are badge engineered and sold in the USA for a lot more by a prestigious American brand. So don't let country of origin get in the way of anything. Having said that, you would need to audition closely with a variety of sources to be fully satisfied.
post #7541 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by tassop View Post

I would agree that manufacturers build in a tolerance into their power supplies, and mostly they get it right. However, with my first projector, Sharp subsequently supplied and fitted a redesigned power supply because someone forgot about the tolerance requirements in 240v countries. It is an example of what Joe was talking about that the design team still needs to have the relevant experience.

The issue of the electrical waveform only becomes relevant if we use a UPS. The mains supply should be sine wave, albeit packed with grunge in some areas. Whether a component will sound better from 'cleaned up' power, depends upon what the manufacturers have done themselves. To that end I would also love to know what Denon have done with the AVP in that area.

That's an interesting example. However a projector's power supply is not likely the same as an audio component, what with the bulb and cooling/air flow requirements. None the less - that's sounds pretty incompetent.

The Denon as seven transformers in it so I think some engineering thought went in there.

I think this science - power supply design - has to be a relatively old and somewhat simple science, I mean how long have we been using A/C to power A/V products? I'm guessing it probably doesn't require a whole lot of R&D at this point, for most applications there's likely a tried & true design ready "off the shelf" so to speak.

I could be completely wrong, there could be something extremely complex in turning a 120vac into 12vdc to feed an audio circuit, maybe even more complex than designing a high speed microprocessor, but my "Spidey Sense" tells me otherwise..
post #7542 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

That's an interesting example. However a projector's power supply is not likely the same as an audio component, what with the bulb and cooling/air flow requirements. None the less - that's sounds pretty incompetent.

The Denon as seven transformers in it so I think some engineering thought went in there.

I think this science - power supply design - has to be a relatively old and somewhat simple science, I mean how long have we been using A/C to power A/V products? I'm guessing it probably doesn't require a whole lot of R&D at this point, for most applications there's likely a tried & true design ready "off the shelf" so to speak.

I could be completely wrong, there could be something extremely complex in turning a 120vac into 12vdc to feed an audio circuit, maybe even more complex than designing a high speed microprocessor, but my "Spidey Sense" tells me otherwise..

You are probably correct. However, what I notice is that boring stuff (like power supplies) often gets relegated to the new rug rat in the group. They sometimes have their own ideas about who is smarter, and ignore that existing design. Or worse yet (and probably as often), all us old farts get promoted and no longer have anything to do with design, leaving the young ones on their own to learn. Sometimes they don't know where to go to get the old existing designs too. That said, you are correct that the AVP does have a plethora of supplies and they take up a lot of room and weight, usually indicating a robust design
post #7543 of 25955
Poll as who finds that Denon AVP1HD is truly a great processor?
post #7544 of 25955
wse, I'm not sure what you mean! I think those of us on this thread all agree that it is a great Pro-Pro.
post #7545 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

i think those of us on this thread all agree that it is a great pro-pro.

+1
post #7546 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

wse, I'm not sure what you mean! I think those of us on this thread all agree that it is a great Pro-Pro.

I'd go so far as to say exceptional & S.O.T.A.
post #7547 of 25955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

wse, I'm not sure what you mean! I think those of us on this thread all agree that it is a great Pro-Pro.

Count me as another. The AVP is an amazing piece of engineering! It's not only currently the most advanced preamp/processor available, but it sounds phenomenal as well. I am TOTALLY loving my AVP!


Seth
post #7548 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Poll as who finds that Denon AVP1HD is truly a great processor?

I think the pre/pro from **** will be better but since **** can't get their act together we are forced to buy the avp. Even if **** ships we will probably see alot of problems with updates, formats not supported and modes not working. Also changes are high that **** will have a f****up hdmi system and ofcourse the price of the one **** makes will be higher.

We are now about a year further and the avp is still the only quality pre/pro out with the amount of features and a proven track record of being stable to a high degree. Infact i would not be shocked it takes the others another year to come up with a pre/pro that matches the avp and have say a 6month track record to prove its stable.

Denon will take all it has learned and release the lowend pre/pro by the time the others have a stable product and they will be even more in trouble.

Daniel.
post #7549 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I think the pre/pro from **** will be better but since **** can't get their act together we are forced to buy the avp. Even if **** ships we will probably see alot of problems with updates, formats not supported and modes not working. Also changes are high that **** will have a f****up hdmi system and ofcourse the price of the one **** makes will be higher.

We are now about a year further and the avp is still the only quality pre/pro out with the amount of features and a proven track record of being stable to a high degree. Infact i would not be shocked it takes the others another year to come up with a pre/pro that matches the avp and have say a 6month track record to prove its stable.

Denon will take all it has learned and release the lowend pre/pro by the time the others have a stable product and they will be even more in trouble.

Daniel.

ROFL - If I understand you correctly, I upgraded from **** and have to agree . And yes, even though I think it could be better, it's one heck of a processor (the AVP) (or maybe you meant that other one - but it's still funny)
post #7550 of 25955
My present system consists of Parasound JC1 monoblocks and a JC2 preamp, Thiel 3.7 speakers fed by a request music server via analog. I need to have surround functionality again and I have been using a denon 4308 in front of the JC2 which works ok, but not so great when I bypass the JC2 and go right to the amps from the denon. What I was wondering was if I went to the AVP and eliminated the JC2 preamp, how much sound quality would I sacrifice on two channel music? The JC2 really makes the 4308 sound much better for 2 channel so I am concerned if I go to an avp straight to the amps that it will compromise my stereo quality. Any experience from pre amp users? I would guess the AVP DAC's are better than those on the request yet the JC2 preamp is saving the day. My speakers are very unforgiving

Thanks!
post #7551 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeah32 View Post

Count me as another. The AVP is an amazing piece of engineering! It's not only currently the most advanced preamp/processor available, but it sounds phenomenal as well. I am TOTALLY loving my AVP!


Seth

+1 exactly what Seth said
post #7552 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfav View Post

My present system consists of Parasound JC1 monoblocks and a JC2 preamp, Thiel 3.7 speakers fed by a request music server via analog. I need to have surround functionality again and I have been using a denon 4308 in front of the JC2 which works ok, but not so great when I bypass the JC2 and go right to the amps from the denon. What I was wondering was if I went to the AVP and eliminated the JC2 preamp, how much sound quality would I sacrifice on two channel music? The JC2 really makes the 4308 sound much better for 2 channel so I am concerned if I go to an avp straight to the amps that it will compromise my stereo quality. Any experience from pre amp users? I would guess the AVP DAC's are better than those on the request yet the JC2 preamp is saving the day. My speakers are very unforgiving

Thanks!

Just to be clear your music server uses analog (maybe not the best idea?) to the 4308 that should be in pure-direct mode to the amps. Its a little unclear to me in this how much loss the 4308 would create. I don't think the 4308 in that mode should involve any adc's and dacs, unless its for volume ? I am sure the avp won't. Its still early and i have alot to learn maybe someone can explain it to me.

Now on the analog and dacs of the avp they are fine but it would be guessing how the compare to the JC2 would be at this point.

Daniel.
post #7553 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I think the pre/pro from **** will be better but since **** can't get their act together we are forced to buy the avp. Even if **** ships we will probably see alot of problems with updates, formats not supported and modes not working. Also changes are high that **** will have a f****up hdmi system and ofcourse the price of the one **** makes will be higher.

We are now about a year further and the avp is still the only quality pre/pro out with the amount of features and a proven track record of being stable to a high degree. Infact i would not be shocked it takes the others another year to come up with a pre/pro that matches the avp and have say a 6month track record to prove its stable.

Denon will take all it has learned and release the lowend pre/pro by the time the others have a stable product and they will be even more in trouble.

Daniel.

Ok I give in what **** is it exactly?
post #7554 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Ok I give in what **** is it exactly?

I think you missed my point Frank . It was a general remark on what is happening. The power of the avp is not that its just GOOD but that its been available and more stable than any of the highend brands.

getting the revel speakers for testing tomorow, wonder how they will match with the avp and poa aint new toys great .

Daniel.
post #7555 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I think you missed my point Frank . It was a general remark on what is happening. The power of the avp is not that its just GOOD but that its been available and more stable than any of the highend brands.

getting the revel speakers for testing tomorow, wonder how they will match with the avp and poa aint new toys great .

Daniel.

oops how embarrasing, sorry. Intrested to know how the revels go, im looking at the Ushers dance series this Thursday or Saturday.Your right I enjoy buying new toys.
post #7556 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

oops how embarrasing, sorry. Intrested to know how the revels go, im looking at the Ushers dance series this Thursday or Saturday.Your right I enjoy buying new toys.

Don't feel sorry we dutch have a weird ways of trying to make jokes and or points atleast thats what all my other non dutch friends tell me .

Its either that or i just aint funny but if that is the case please don't tell me, i would have to buy even more new toys to recover from that.

Daniel.
post #7557 of 25955
Another embarrassing confession - the "night mode" on the AVP has the day, evening and Night with dynamic volume switched in, but also regular night mode with it switched out.

I was confused when the menu changed..........
post #7558 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Don't feel sorry we dutch have a weird ways of trying to make jokes and or points atleast thats what all my other non dutch friends tell me .

Its either that or i just aint funny but if that is the case please don't tell me, i would have to buy even more new toys to recover from that.

Daniel.

I actually throuht you were talking about one particular company but know reading it and after you explained it I got it.
Thats the problem with these forums it's hard to tell when someone is joking, I've cracked a few jokes but no one responded so I deleted them.

Many companies will follow what Denon has accomplished lets hope they have the constant firmware support that Denon supplies.
post #7559 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Just to be clear your music server uses analog (maybe not the best idea?) to the 4308 that should be in pure-direct mode to the amps. Its a little unclear to me in this how much loss the 4308 would create. I don't think the 4308 in that mode should involve any adc's and dacs, unless its for volume ? I am sure the avp won't. Its still early and i have alot to learn maybe someone can explain it to me.

Now on the analog and dacs of the avp they are fine but it would be guessing how the compare to the JC2 would be at this point.

Daniel.

The analog from the music server sounded almost identical as the digital from the server going to a Slim Transporter DAC and then to the JC2 preamp which surprised me. If I go analog from the server to the JC2 VS digital to the denon and VIA the JC2 they sound similar but the JC2 route is a bit better, if I go digital from the server to the denon and then straight to the amps then it does not sound so great, even in pure direct. The JC2 preamp does much to make it sound better.

What I want to do is go digital from the server to an AVP and straight to my amps for simplicity, what I am concerned about is that it won't sound a s god as the analog from the server to the JC2 and then to the amps. I would expect the detail to be improved due to the good DACs but I'm concerned about the preamp section on the AVP even in pure direct. Eliminating the preamp really makes life simple.
post #7560 of 25955
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfav View Post

The analog from the music server sounded almost identical as the digital from the server going to a Slim Transporter DAC and then to the JC2 preamp which surprised me. If I go analog from the server to the JC2 VS digital to the denon and VIA the JC2 they sound similar but the JC2 route is a bit better, if I go digital from the server to the denon and then straight to the amps then it does not sound so great, even in pure direct. The JC2 preamp does much to make it sound better.

So you've tried:

1) Server Analog -> JC2 -> amps - happy with the results.
2) Server Digital -> Denon 4308 -> Denon 4308 Analog (preamp out?) -> JC2 -> amps - not happy with the results
3) Server Digital -> Denon 4308 -> amps - not happy with the results

It sounds like you have not tried:

4) Server Analog -> Denon 4308 -> amps

I wouldn't expect option 2 to sound the best because you've got an extra preamp in the chain.

In any event, the Denon AVP should have better DAC's (and implementation) than the 4308 and a better preamp section, so it should be an improvement over the 4308. Only an audition is really going to tell you if you'll be happy with the results.
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