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Escient Vision Line - Page 2

post #31 of 238
not to defend, but a box... is not equal to its MSRP. there is the potential of software developed for it, service, support, other unseen factors.

So the price is not the whole story. You cannot just buy the box and hook it up.

No judgement about how much the markup is.
post #32 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

not to defend, but a box... is not equal to its MSRP. there is the potential of software developed for it, service, support, other unseen factors.

So the price is not the whole story. You cannot just buy the box and hook it up.

No judgement about how much the markup is.

Agreed, but my guess is that XXXXXXXX took care of any software requirement for accessing "their" NAS.

Here are just the basic specs for the NAS as it is in its "normal" form:

Form Factor: 1U
Hot-Swap Bays: 4
Compatible RAID Levels: 0,1,5
Number Of Hard Drives Bays: 4
Hard Drives Included: 0
Hard Drive Interface: SATA II
USB Ports: 2
RJ-45 Ports: 1
Communications Description: Network Adapter
Interface Type: RJ-45

Data Transfer Rate: 1000 Mbps /100 Mbps/10 Mbps
Protocols: TCP/IP

Built-In Network Services: FTP Server, HTTP Server,SMB,AFP, CIFS
Windows ADS, MySQL Server, iTunes Server

Networking Standards: IEEE 802.3i 10Base-T Ethernet
IEEE 802.3u 100Base-TX Fast Ethernet
IEEE 802.3ab Gigabit Ethernet


I think Escient would have probably been better served if they had at least commissioned their own custom UNIQUE cases for their brand. I would have been happy with the old style Fireball case. At least when you saw it from a distance YOU KNEW it was a Fireball, just like you knew you were looking at Mcintosh preamp, a Krell amplifier, or a KALEIDESCAPE server!

Another point along this line... Is it just me or is their Vision VC-1 Media Player housed in an off the shelf Silverstone LaScala LC19 low profile HTPC case?
post #33 of 238
i thought the same thing hence why i haven't been very keen on this product. escient products are excellent, but the vision line is, imo, overpriced for what you get. someone could easily put together a chep htpc with a nas and essentially do the same thing for 1/4 the price. that, plus its upgradeable and you can use any scaler you like with it. if the escient products featured a scaler built in such as what the new denon 5308 receiver/avp-a1hdci pre/pro offer (realto.. heck even reon), then i could maybe justify the high price. but essentially, if one wants to go that route it is just too much money for the escient products and the additional units you will need to get your server up and going.
post #34 of 238
Cracks me up people are complaining about the price of the Vision server, yet it is less than an equal system from k*.
post #35 of 238
thats true. but just because the k is super expensive doesn't mean everyone will jump on the vision line simply because its a bit cheaper then k, albeit still quite expensive for what you get. not saying that one is not paying for quality, service, etc. but like i posted earlier... you can easily make a system far better than both the escient and k and still have thousands left over.
post #36 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

When you insert a disc for ripping the Vision system asks you to answer in the affirmative that you own the rights to said disc. This must be answered yes to proceed, much like PC software licenses. That, according ro Escient has satisfied the content providers.

And you believe that??? You do realize that Kaleidescape just spend several years in court over the issue, won, and now the DVD association is still trying to stop them by changing the requirements for licensing, don't you?
post #37 of 238
Escient has no license. so no license violation.
post #38 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

Escient has no license. so no license violation.

So how are they able to do this legally? Have they found some other loophole that no one else has found in the last 10+ years that there have been DVD's?
post #39 of 238
Agreed Dizzman, but that does not mean they it satisfies the content providers. Not by any stroke of the imagination. It also does not mean that a company could not go after them, it simply would not be a breach of contract lawsuit as with K. I mean come on, you know that they have not gotten any OK from the "content providers" :-). I'd have to be wearing my hip boots when they tell me that.
post #40 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

So how are they able to do this legally? Have they found some other loophole that no one else has found in the last 10+ years that there have been DVD's?


Ding ding ding...

they do it in such a way that either they make you do the illegal part, or are hoping nobody comes after them. the DVD CCA came after K because they felt that k violated the terms of the license with the DVDCCA. if there is no contract between Escient and the DVDCCA, then they have far more complicated case work to prosecute. Remember... the issue with k was a simple contract dispute. that is all. potentially far reaching ramifications if the judge had let it go "there" but they did not.

Hip waders not included...
post #41 of 238
Easy one.. they are not equal. not by a long shot. they do similar stuff, but are not equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chadly25 View Post

Cracks me up people are complaining about the price of the Vision server, yet it is less than an equal system from k*.
post #42 of 238
From the current Escient FAQ found here: http://www.escient.com/support/faqs.html

Q. [DVDM] Can I rip my DVD's to the DVDM-300 hard drive?
A. The DVDM-300 product manages DVD's from connected changers only. Currently, Escient does not offer a product that allows a DVD to be ripped to an internal hard drive because of the legal issues related to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998. If and when the legal issues are resolved, Escient will be in a position to quickly offer hard drive based DVD management products.

So what legal issues have they now resolved? Surely it didn't take them 10 years to figure out, "Gee, if we just have our customer's say they own the disk, there is no issue for us!"

I can somewhat see how the MCE products get around this because I think they don't sell the MCE's with any DVD ripping software but give you the "wink, wink" and let you know that you can easily find this software and then the ripped movies will work great with My Movies or their proprietary movie interface (like Vidabox, Niveus, or Inteset to name a few).

However, for the Escient system, there is nothing to add, they are simply selling you a product that right out of the box breaks the DMCA. In any case, Escient's legal counsel may want to advise on updating their FAQ
post #43 of 238
those waters are murky indeed.

And it sucks that you can do it yourself for almost no money but cannot with lots of really expensive hardware. the pressure to do it has to be immense.
post #44 of 238
The idea behind their system if I have understood correctly (have not had the training yet) is that the title REMAINS IN ITS ENCRYPTED FORM!??

The DVD is actually ripped right from the internal dvd slot but when it resides on the hard drive it is still encrypted to which Escient adds another layer of their own encryption??? so that the title CANNOT be moved from the clients system. In other words, the is NO way to share the stored files directly over the internet or re-burn a copy of the movie from the Escient Server back to a blank disc.

I believe Escient's premise is to allow a client to do this under the FAIR USE idea and keeping the information in an encrypted form without the ability to transfer the files off of the client's system SHOULD? satisfy the legal requirements for all concerned.


Does this stop anyone from simply ripping copies of movies they have rented or just borrowed from friends? Of course not! But that is true of virtually every system out there and will always be the case.


------- UPDATE--------

Ok, I found the press article I was thinking about again describing the idea behind the new system.

The full article is at this link:

http://www.ce-pro.com/article/escien..._cca_and_dmca/

Here is the most relevent point taken from that article:

The company announced today that consumers will, in fact, be able to import DVDs directly to the server via the product’s built-in DVD drive. (Escient prefers the term “importing” to the more unseemly “ripping.")

In September, Commons says, “We were telling everyone that there were legal issues surrounding the importing of movies.” Now, he says, “We’ve resolved those issues so you can import movies on the front-panel DVD drive.”

Exactly how did Escient “resolve” those issues? According to Commons:

We’re maintaining all of the encryption that’s on the movie so when we’re moving a movie from a disc to the internal hard drive, it’s copying bit for bit with all of the encryption intact. We’re adding our own second level of even more stringent encryption to protect it [DVD content] when it’s on the Vision storage system.

Once the DVD is imported onto the Vision device, it cannot leave the network, and cannot be uploaded to the Internet. Hence, copy protection is preserved.

You know that, and I know that, but will the DVD authorities concede?
post #45 of 238
just like K. and k added 256 bit encryption and a host of other things to it.

Saying that they feel it is OK under fair use is funny.
post #46 of 238
it has even gone so far as that the DVD CCA is trying to add provisions to thier contract (which would not affect escient as they are not licencees... which of course means that in order to play back the CSS encrypted content they need a hack, and that hack is in fact illegal) that would clearly state that playback is not allowed if the physical disc is not present.

THey have not had any luck adding it yet, but they are still (stupidly) pretty serious about it.

I wish escient luck.
post #47 of 238
There is also another issue which I have not been able to clarify yet... Perhaps their marketing department is taking a little bit of artistic license with the storage claims on the VS-100 and VS-200 player/server units, but the specs just dont make sense.

I originally thought the 100 vs. 200 nomenclature was just arbitrary, but in all of Escient's preliminary marketing info, they are making the claims of approx. 100 movies vs. 200 movies of storage, but that just does not jive with the use of 500 G and 1 TB drives.

In the MCE setups I have been playing with for personal use/testing purposes, I could at best get around 65 movies on a 500 GIG drive. I am picky about preservining EVERYTHING so I only rip BIT FOR BIT, as Escient claims the Vision does. My average would show that I am requiring about 7.5 GIG's per title. At the most, I maybe had 10 titles in that mix that were from single layer pressings. Most if not ALL recent releases are pretty much dual layer media.

If we are to believe the claims of getting 100 movies stored on a 500 GIG drive, logic would dictate that compression of one form or another is having to be applied. Perhaps, their marketing spin is using the premise that everyone will be ripping nothinng but 1997/98/99 era dvds where the majority of movies where on single layer media and averaged about 4.2 gigs of space???
post #48 of 238
Its marketing. You could theoretically get 100 movies on a 500gb drive. It isn't really the reality. I'm sure there are disclaimers regarding the actual amount of movies.
post #49 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

There is also another issue which I have not been able to clarify yet... Perhaps their marketing department is taking a little bit of artistic license with the storage claims on the VS-100 and VS-200 player/server units, but the specs just dont make sense.

I originally thought the 100 vs. 200 nomenclature was just arbitrary, but in all of Escient's preliminary marketing info, they are making the claims of approx. 100 movies vs. 200 movies of storage, but that just does not jive with the use of 500 G and 1 TB drives.

In the MCE setups I have been playing with for personal use/testing purposes, I could at best get around 65 movies on a 500 GIG drive. I am picky about preservining EVERYTHING so I only rip BIT FOR BIT, as Escient claims the Vision does. My average would show that I am requiring about 7.5 GIG's per title. At the most, I maybe had 10 titles in that mix that were from single layer pressings. Most if not ALL recent releases are pretty much dual layer media.

If we are to believe the claims of getting 100 movies stored on a 500 GIG drive, logic would dictate that compression of one form or another is having to be applied. Perhaps, their marketing spin is using the premise that everyone will be ripping nothinng but 1997/98/99 era dvds where the majority of movies where on single layer media and averaged about 4.2 gigs of space???

Actually I believe the hard disk config is in a raid, or redundant, format.
VS-100 is 2 x 500 gb and VS-200 is 2 x 1 gb. So 100/200 movies is a conservative estimate.
post #50 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac11 View Post

Actually I believe the hard disk config is in a raid, or redundant, format.
VS-100 is 2 x 500 gb and VS-200 is 2 x 1 gb. So 100/200 movies is a conservative estimate.


Yes, the boxes use RAID but they are configured as Mode 1 so the 2 drives would just be mirroring each other. Therefore, your effective storage is only going to be the overall capacity of 1 drive (either the 500 G or 1 TB in the respective 2 models)

Which again, brings up another curious point, the server/players come configured with Raid 1, but the External 4 TB add on storage NAS is configured as a Raid 5 ??

When my distributor puts together their "launch seminar" or whatever they are going to term it, I am probably going to have a million questions for them.

I feel that if Escient is in fact going to be using a basically off the shelf NAS for external storage, then they probably would be better served by following the Fusion Research Genesis model which now allows the integrator to purchase an optional Storage "licence" on the client's behalf and let them use their own personal preference (ie box and size choice). I believe the Fusion is supporting any solution from Buffalo Technologies and Net Gear for additional storage.
post #51 of 238
Does anyone have current information with respect to the Sony blu-ray changer that is supposed to be in development that will interface with the Escient Vision?
post #52 of 238
Since there really isnt any real world info available on this unit yet,
here is a link to a video on Youtube from a fairly recent trade show showing the Escient Vision in action.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S5ZwBae_KiQ

This besides the introduction videos at Escient's site are the only video of a working system that I have seen.

From point 4:30 on, he recaps the features with a few quick points and hints about future changers.
post #53 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norgoth View Post

Does anyone have current information with respect to the Sony blu-ray changer that is supposed to be in development that will interface with the Escient Vision?

The new Sony BD changer is being made on the same assembly line as the now defunct DVP CX777ES/B. As such it is supposed to be in the same chassis and it will be a 400 disc changer as its older cousin was. Hope we see one at Cedia. The Vision is supposed to be to market by mid May. Regards, Norm
post #54 of 238
Thanks for the information.
post #55 of 238
Fusion Research Genesis

anyone using one of these yet?

my dealer loaned me one to evaluate: claims it is better that the Escient Vision Line which is still delayed

I have yet to hook it up but it seems like a nice unit
post #56 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

Fusion Research Genesis

anyone using one of these yet?

my dealer loaned me one to evaluate: claims it is better that the Escient Vision Line which is still delayed

I have yet to hook it up but it seems like a nice unit

I had thought about it for the last couple of years, but eventually decided against it. I first saw the original version of Fusions product line at their first major seminar which was held at CEDIA '05. They have come a long way.

This firm and its product line originally began as a partner of Viewsonic when a few companys were trying to market Microsofts ill fated "Smart Display" Web tablet's. Anyone remember that?? Back then (2003-2005), Fusions first incarnation was known as "Mplus" and bundled with 12" and 15" Viewsonic Airpanels. The idea was to join home automation functions with media server control (which at the time meant control of Sony megachangers)

I thought the new line had promise (mainly because of its very Kaleidescape like GUI), but when originally launched, I felt it was still priced on the high side for what was essentially a totally unproven product by a new firm.

The thing that kept me away from Fusion is that whatever info I have been able to gather with respect to Tech support or after sales service has not been shall we say, all that complimentary. If there are any Fusion dealers reading this topic, perhaps they can chime in.

One thing I did like was their switch (last year I believe) to the idea of selling "storage licenses" through the authorized dealer. I like this business model because it lets the customer choose their own add on storage solutions and configure their arrays in whatever size they would like to build. I believe Fusion recommends Buffalo and Netgear, but you can probably use whatever you like.

I think this is a good idea and one that more firms should offer. As I have already stated in earlier posts, I feel that Escients plan on selling rebadged $ 1,800 off the shelf NAS's for a Canadian MSRP of $ 8,000 is going to bite them in the ass. If this is the only option that Escient ends up offering, it may make me seriously question whether I take the line on or not.
post #57 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

There is also another issue which I have not been able to clarify yet... Perhaps their marketing department is taking a little bit of artistic license with the storage claims on the VS-100 and VS-200 player/server units, but the specs just dont make sense.

I originally thought the 100 vs. 200 nomenclature was just arbitrary, but in all of Escient's preliminary marketing info, they are making the claims of approx. 100 movies vs. 200 movies of storage, but that just does not jive with the use of 500 G and 1 TB drives.

In the MCE setups I have been playing with for personal use/testing purposes, I could at best get around 65 movies on a 500 GIG drive. I am picky about preservining EVERYTHING so I only rip BIT FOR BIT, as Escient claims the Vision does. My average would show that I am requiring about 7.5 GIG's per title. At the most, I maybe had 10 titles in that mix that were from single layer pressings. Most if not ALL recent releases are pretty much dual layer media.

If we are to believe the claims of getting 100 movies stored on a 500 GIG drive, logic would dictate that compression of one form or another is having to be applied. Perhaps, their marketing spin is using the premise that everyone will be ripping nothinng but 1997/98/99 era dvds where the majority of movies where on single layer media and averaged about 4.2 gigs of space???

Off topic I know
Sorry time chime in(and I dont know much)

But I was reading the other day about hard drives,and this is what it
stated.

"HDD's are calculated using base 10 or decimal value,this is the standard method that "ALL" manufacturers use to specify disc capacity"

Of a 320g HDD,there is only 298g available.

So on a 500g or 1T HDD that a loss of 36.5g and 73g respectively.

This would play a small part, a part to be considered,by the manufacturer and the end user.
I know it only equates for a small loss,but a loss nonetheless

They should up the size of the HDD knowing this so the user actually gets what they are paying for,or what the manufacturer is claiming!
post #58 of 238
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see any info (for or against) on whether or not any changers connected to the VS devices could be streamed to other VS or VC devices.

I would expect that the discs in the changers could only be played on the local VS device, especially if they are Blu-ray disks, does anyone know for sure?

Also, although there is 4 changer limit for the VS device, it appears that you can have as many VX and VC (or VS) devices in your home, as long as your network structure would support the bandwidth requirements, is there any info indicating that there would be limits?
post #59 of 238
There is NO info available on this topic yet. I can't get anything from my distributor (he doesnt know whats going on either really).

He did tell me (took this with a grain of salt) that there are alternative changer solutions being worked on and they are NON-SONY !?!?....Huh...OK..we'll see.

If you check out the photos of the back panel of the VS server (on Escient's site), you will see that there are 4 HDMI IN and 1 HDMI out. Logic would dictate then that there will be a maximum of 4 media changers.

Escient does have a multi-room solution so to speak on the current Fireball 752 model (and disco'd 552). If you had the a player in another zone you could watch 2 movies in 2 different rooms at the same time. (AS LONG AS THEY WERE IN SEPARATE SONY 777ES CHANGERS). I would assume that the new Vision line would operate in a similar manner when using changers.

I have been lead to believe that the whole point of the new system is to have the ability to stream up to 1080p video and Bluray should be able to be sent to players. (Again, that is coming from my distributor at this point)

There is another really curious issue which I still cannot get an answer on. There is NO RS-232 port on the new Vision line???. Now, one of the great things about the current Fireballs, is the ability to easily interface them with third party controller and automation products using an RS-232 hookup. I have even hooked up Fireballs to Speakercraft MZC whole house audio controllers and gotten 2-way feedback of artist/track info/etc. on Speakercraft Mode LCD keypads. Very cool.

Not sure what to make of the omission of RS-232 on the new Vision???
post #60 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

If you check out the photos of the back panel of the VS server (on Escient's site), you will see that there are 4 HDMI IN and 1 HDMI out. Logic would dictate then that there will be a maximum of 4 media changers.

Escient does have a multi-room solution so to speak on the current Fireball 752 model (and disco'd 552). If you had the a player in another zone you could watch 2 movies in 2 different rooms at the same time. (AS LONG AS THEY WERE IN SEPARATE SONY 777ES CHANGERS). I would assume that the new Vision line would operate in a similar manner when using changers.

I have been lead to believe that the whole point of the new system is to have the ability to stream up to 1080p video and Bluray should be able to be sent to players. (Again, that is coming from my distributor at this point)

There is another really curious issue which I still cannot get an answer on. There is NO RS-232 port on the new Vision line???. Now, one of the great things about the current Fireballs, is the ability to easily interface them with third party controller and automation products using an RS-232 hookup. I have even hooked up Fireballs to Speakercraft MZC whole house audio controllers and gotten 2-way feedback of artist/track info/etc. on Speakercraft Mode LCD keypads. Very cool.

Not sure what to make of the omission of RS-232 on the new Vision???

Yes, the 752 model did allow for streaming, but that was because it had dual component outputs. On the VS models, I only see one HDMI output. For it to work like the 752, it should really have at least 2 (preferably 4) HDMI outputs so that each of the 4 changers could stream to other VS or VCs.

That of course is a crude solution compared to the Kaleidescape system, but now that managed copy is not being included the final AACS specs I'm not sure that the K* system will allow for Blu-Ray ripping.

Also, I'm quite sure that the VS would not be able to take an HDMI in from a Blu-Ray changer and convert it to IP video, but if they could that would be quite a trick.

As for the lack of RS-232, perhaps there would be control via IP??
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