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Escient Vision Line - Page 3

post #61 of 238
4/24/08 at 7:27pm
The legacy Fireballs are a different animal. They essentially made use of built in matrix video switchers and required that you have a run of component video cabling plus audio to your secondary zone.

Maybe I am missing something I think the whole point of the VISION is to stream all info digitally to the VC-1 players via Gigabit ethernet. There is NO need for there to be old style analog matrixed video switching in the new line.

I believe the only reason for there being an HDMI "INPUT" on the back of a VC-1 player is for systems where you may NOT have a VS server, but you could still have control of 1 HDMI Changer via a VC-1 player. (sort of in the same way that a current MX111 would not give you dual zone and multi-changer functionality but does offer control of 1 Sony 777 ES DVD changer)

If I understand correctly (I may be wrong here) you dont have to have a VS server to build a system, but could instead just opt for VC-1's connected directly to your LAN feeding off a 4 Terabyte VX-600 NAS. (or up to four VX-600's for a total of 16 Terabytes)

Given the way these things are priced, for me, it would make sense to disregard the VS-100 or VS-200 altogether and go for a VC-1 with a VX-600 NAS. What the VS servers will give you is MULTIPLE CHANGER control (up to 4) for those who may want this.

I probably confused the hell out of everyone. Sorry.
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post #62 of 238
4/24/08 at 8:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

The legacy Fireballs are a different animal. They essentially made use of built in matrix video switchers and required that you have a run of component video cabling plus audio to your secondary zone.

Maybe I am missing something I think the whole point of the VISION is to stream all info digitally to the VC-1 players via Gigabyte Ethernet. There is NO need for there to be old style analog matrixed video switching in the new line.

I believe the only reason for there being an HDMI "INPUT" on the back of a VC-1 player is for systems where you may NOT have a VS server, but you could still have control of 1 HDMI Changer via a VC-1 player. (sort of in the same way that a current MX111 would not give you dual zone and multi-changer functionality but does offer control of 1 Sony 777 ES DVD changer)

If I understand correctly (I may be wrong here) you don't have to have a VS server to build a system, but could instead just opt for VC-1's connected directly to your LAN feeding off a 4 Terabyte VX-600 NAS. (or up to four VX-600's for a total of 16 Terabytes)

Given the way these things are priced, for me, it would make sense to disregard the VS-100 or VS-200 altogether and go for a VC-1 with a VX-600 NAS. What the VS servers will give you is MULTIPLE CHANGER control (up to 4) for those who may want this.

I probably confused the hell out of everyone. Sorry.

Here's the story as I have it from Escient:
The VS models can accept up to 4 changers. They can be any combination of the Sony 777 SD changers or the new upcoming 400 disc BD changers. The VC can accept only one changer. The changers content cannot be streamed over the network, they can only be output via the single HDMI output of the unit to which they are attached. (I suppose if you wanted to use an HDMI distribution amp you could distribute the content to other zones, but this seems to defeat the transparency of the whole concept.) As such the only content that can be streamed is that which is on the hard-drives (DVD, Music, Photos) or the Internet.
You are correct that a whole house system can be based on VC players in conjunction with however many VX servers you need to accommodate your storage needs. One VC player per zone will do the trick. The network must be Gigabyte and connected with Cat 6. The main need for VS servers is for smaller collections or for a Main Zone i.e. Theater, where more than one changer, presumably future BD changers, is needed , because the VX server is a much more elegant solution than a bunch of SD changers. Hope this helps. Regards, Norm
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post #63 of 238
4/24/08 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

The legacy Fireballs are a different animal. They essentially made use of built in matrix video switchers and required that you have a run of component video cabling plus audio to your secondary zone.

Maybe I am missing something I think the whole point of the VISION is to stream all info digitally to the VC-1 players via Gigabit ethernet. There is NO need for there to be old style analog matrixed video switching in the new line.

I believe the only reason for there being an HDMI "INPUT" on the back of a VC-1 player is for systems where you may NOT have a VS server, but you could still have control of 1 HDMI Changer via a VC-1 player. (sort of in the same way that a current MX111 would not give you dual zone and multi-changer functionality but does offer control of 1 Sony 777 ES DVD changer)

If I understand correctly (I may be wrong here) you dont have to have a VS server to build a system, but could instead just opt for VC-1's connected directly to your LAN feeding off a 4 Terabyte VX-600 NAS. (or up to four VX-600's for a total of 16 Terabytes)

Given the way these things are priced, for me, it would make sense to disregard the VS-100 or VS-200 altogether and go for a VC-1 with a VX-600 NAS. What the VS servers will give you is MULTIPLE CHANGER control (up to 4) for those who may want this.

I probably confused the hell out of everyone. Sorry.

I follow what you are saying and agree that if you don't want to use the changer and need more than 1tb of storage, then yes, just go ahead and get the VX-600. However, to clarify your point about the VX-600, there shouldn't be a limit of 4 as you should be able to connect as many as you like (provided you have enough ports on your router or switch). Even the sell sheet says you can have "unlimited expansion" with the VX-600.

As for the streaming vs. matrix, I agree that the matrix approach wouldn't be very good (since you would have to deal with long HDMI runs to each VC device). Since this system allows for ripping of DVD's, then I could see how the VS device should be able to take a real-time stream from a DVD changer and convert it to IP video for the network. However, as I stated above, I would be quite surprised if they could do the same for Blu-Ray and if they could, then you should be able to just rip Blu-Ray as well (and store unlimited Blu-ray disks on aformentioned VX-600's).

Then again, maybe I am confusing everyone, I think Escient needs to be more clear on what this system can actually do (and provide a wiring diagram).
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post #64 of 238
4/24/08 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Here's the story as I have it from Escient:
The VS models can accept up to 4 changers. They can be any combination of the Sony 777 SD changers or the new upcoming 400 disc BD changers. The VC can accept only one changer. The changers content cannot be streamed over the network, they can only be output via the single HDMI output of the unit to which they are attached. (I suppose if you wanted to use an HDMI distribution amp you could distribute the content to other zones, but this seems to defeat the transparency of the whole concept.) As such the only content that can be streamed is that which is on the hard-drives (DVD, Music, Photos) or the Internet.
You are correct that a whole house system can be based on VC players in conjunction with however many VX servers you need to accommodate your storage needs. One VC player per zone will do the trick. The network must be Gigabyte and connected with Cat 6. The main need for VS servers is for smaller collections or for a Main Zone i.e. Theater, where more than one changer, presumably future BD changers, is needed , because the VX server is a much more elegant solution than a bunch of SD changers. Hope this helps. Regards, Norm

I'm too slow of a typer, you answered my questions while I was writing the post above. Just one final question then, is there any limit to how many VX servers you can have? I have heard the limit of 4 several times, but there shouldn't be a limit if this is an IP solution.

One additional comment, if you truly want the maximum solution with unlimited DVD capacity and Blu-Ray capability, then you would need both the VX and VS servers, so this solution would be closer in price to the K* system than I originally thought.
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post #65 of 238
4/25/08 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

I'm too slow of a typer, you answered my questions while I was writing the post above. Just one final question then, is there any limit to how many VX servers you can have? I have heard the limit of 4 several times, but there shouldn't be a limit if this is an IP solution.

One additional comment, if you truly want the maximum solution with unlimited DVD capacity and Blu-Ray capability, then you would need both the VX and VS servers, so this solution would be closer in price to the K* system than I originally thought.

Since the VX is Network Storage & Escient says it provides unlimited storage, any number of VX servers can be added to your LAN. The number 4 crops up in a couple of examples and I think that accounts for the confusion. First the VX has Four TB of storage per unit, and the VS servers can handle Four HDMI inputs each. These have nothing to do with the number of VX units that can be put on the LAN.
In answer to your last comment, Escient has no current plans to enable adding BD content to the Servers. It will only be accessable from the forthcoming changers. If you do the math 4 BD changers @ 400 discs each would equal 64000 GB and would take ~26 VX servers in Raid 5 to hold. This is why Escient doesn't think that it's practical to put BD on the Drives. Can you count the $$$$ for 26 VX Servers? I don't know if I can unless I use exponential numbers. I don't know how Kaleidescape plans to hold BD at any kind of cost effective solution, but Escient thinks for now this is their best rejoinder to the problem. Regards, Norm
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post #66 of 238
4/25/08 at 1:45pm
One of the new K servers is (i am pretty sure) 12TB. so they would need 6 for 72TB.
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post #67 of 238
4/25/08 at 3:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

One of the new K servers is (i am pretty sure) 12TB. so they would need 6 for 72TB.

What's the cost for 6 of those?
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post #68 of 238
4/25/08 at 4:27pm
if you have to ask...

And they are the first to tell you that their market... does not ask (ok maybe they do ask)
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post #69 of 238
4/25/08 at 5:06pm
Using US MSRP's for Escient VISION here is a hypothetical system:

1 (One) VS-200 1 Terabyte Server/Player $ 5,999
2 (Two) VC-1 Players for Sub-Zones $ 3,998
1 (One) VX-600 (Raid 5 Four Terabyte NAS) $ 7,999

TOTAL $ 17,996

for a system that will conservatively hold about 560 SD DVD's and a decent sized Music Collection. (Not including design/install/misc or megachangers for BD content)

Client wants to add another 430 odd SD movies to his collection... No problem Mr. client. That'll be another 8 BIG ONES!
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post #70 of 238
4/25/08 at 5:26pm
remember though... at that price point, you are not far from the K 1U system. and a substantially better user experience, reliability, ease of upsell, maintenance, and all that jazz.
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post #71 of 238
4/26/08 at 7:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

remember though... at that price point, you are not far from the K 1U system. and a substantially better user experience, reliability, ease of upsell, maintenance, and all that jazz.

Fully agree with your point there . . . except, we are only talking about SD DVD's. For the price of a Blu-Ray changer (which relatively shouldn't be too much more), the Escient system is a major improvement over the K system (from a picture quality perspective only) for those that want to watch any Blu-ray disk. Sure, you can't stream, but it's likely the majority of Blu-ray movies would be watched in the main home theater anyway.
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post #72 of 238
4/26/08 at 8:50pm
The little demo I saw on the Escient web site for the Vision showed a user navigate to a movie, select it, and as a result we see the movie starting immediately.

This implies that the system only lets you access the main feature. I was hoping for a solution that would rip the entire DVD and provide access to all the Extras.

Does the Escient Vision and/or their Sony changer solutions provide access to extras from remote clients?

Does Kaleidescape?

I'm looking for something that improves upon my current solution: ripping DVDs via HandBrake into iTunes and streaming them from my NAS-based iTunes library out to AppleTV clients. That works pretty well EXCEPT it's not possible to get access the full DVD experience, just the main feature.

-dave
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post #73 of 238
4/27/08 at 12:14am
on k, they import the entire disc. playing the feature from frame one of the movie (no warnings and such) is bookmarked and a shortcut off the play button. you can always navigate to the trailers, featurettes, etc.
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post #74 of 238
4/27/08 at 3:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveChapin View Post

The little demo I saw on the Escient web site for the Vision showed a user navigate to a movie, select it, and as a result we see the movie starting immediately.

This implies that the system only lets you access the main feature. I was hoping for a solution that would rip the entire DVD and provide access to all the Extras.

Does the Escient Vision and/or their Sony changer solutions provide access to extras from remote clients?

Does Kaleidescape?

I'm looking for something that improves upon my current solution: ripping DVDs via HandBrake into iTunes and streaming them from my NAS-based iTunes library out to AppleTV clients. That works pretty well EXCEPT it's not possible to get access the full DVD experience, just the main feature.

-dave

The Vision rips the entire disc bit for bit. They have this added extra that allows you to go directly to the movie w/o all the extras, trailers, or menu. The Main Menu is however accessible if you wish. They believe that this is a plus in that on most viewings you don't need or want the extras just the movie. Viewing the film is achieved that must faster this way. Regards, Norm
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post #75 of 238
4/27/08 at 6:15pm
one thing to note. with K, the only reason you can bypass everything and go to frame one of the movie is that they MANUALLY grab that first frame on EVERY movie. Otherwise you go to the first frame of the VOB. and that has fbi warnings and possibly more.

K does all their Metadata custom and inhouse.
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post #76 of 238
4/28/08 at 12:14am
has anyone actually played with one?
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post #77 of 238
4/28/08 at 5:32am
The have NOT begun shipping yet.

First deliveries have been delayed at least until late May or early June.
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post #78 of 238
4/28/08 at 4:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

has anyone actually played with one?

We got to Demo one in Jan. at a small Escient training session. It looks like a nice unit. That was how I got to see the Film Start vs Menu Start. Both options are available. I guess Escient's desirability depends upon whether the BD changer solution is palatable to you. It seems to me at this time due to the large size of BD discs that network storage of them is not practical, but I guess with an open budget it is technically feasible. Regards, Norm
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post #79 of 238
4/28/08 at 8:49pm
was told that they are supposed to ship May 31
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post #80 of 238
4/30/08 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

remember though... at that price point, you are not far from the K 1U system. and a substantially better user experience, reliability, ease of upsell, maintenance, and all that jazz.


But with the K1U aren't you going with significantly less storage than the VX? I read that for $10k you only get about 35 DVD and with the VX you get about 500. That can't be ignored.
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post #81 of 238
4/30/08 at 8:49pm
not sure of the quoted numbers, but it is still a little more. And you can fill the Kaleidescape 1U Server with four 1 TB Disk Cartridges and that can hold approximately 450 DVDs

So a little more yes, but the experience is very different. and with a K, you can also keep adding on servers should you want to.
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post #82 of 238
4/30/08 at 10:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ks-man View Post

But with the K1U aren't you going with significantly less storage than the VX? I read that for $10k you only get about 35 DVD and with the VX you get about 500. That can't be ignored.

Just ordered our demo VX & VC yesterday. Confirmation from Escient says end of May delivery. May be a gamble, but I've so enjoyed streaming music since we went to a PC server that I think I will find the same satisfaction for DVDs. Also the BD solution is going to be affordable and I believe reliable. Will report on quality into our reference system as soon as I can. I may not know everything about the K system, but what is the major experience improvement over the Vision proposal, and at what cost. In addition VX servers can be added in unlimited numbers, and every added TB makes the cost differential greater, and VC players can also be added to the network for unlimited zones. Regards, Norm
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post #83 of 238
4/30/08 at 11:33pm
At the risk of sounding like an ass... K was designed from the ground up around the experience. by some of the most knowledgeable Network storage people in the business (can you say founder and original CEO of NetAPP) so they wrote their own operating system, and designed every aspect of the experience around use of the system.

Trying to explain the differences is never useful as many things are somewhat intangible until you see them. i have no doubt this will be a great product, but the K... it is like comparing a Ferrari against a Mustang. Both great cars... but in the end, one does things SOOOOOOOO much cooler.

Get a full demo is all i can say.
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post #84 of 238
4/30/08 at 11:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzman View Post

At the risk of sounding like an ass... K was designed from the ground up around the experience. by some of the most knowledgeable Network storage people in the business (can you say founder and original CEO of NetAPP) so they wrote their own operating system, and designed every aspect of the experience around use of the system.

Trying to explain the differences is never useful as many things are somewhat intangible until you see them. i have no doubt this will be a great product, but the K... it is like comparing a Ferrari against a Mustang. Both great cars... but in the end, one does things SOOOOOOOO much cooler.

Get a full demo is all i can say.

But it sounds like there is a viable alternative who aren't ready to spend the money for the Ferrari. However relative to what most people are "driving", the Escient is probably more like a Mercedes Benz than a Mustang.
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post #85 of 238
5/1/08 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post

Just ordered our demo VX & VC yesterday. Confirmation from Escient says end of May delivery.

Hey Norm,

I have a demo system placed on backorder also. The price I have been quoted is JUST TOO GOOD TO PASS UP!!

However, my distributor still isnt sure exactly what unit(s) are included in the demo. The notation in the price books just say Escient Dealer Demo Server/Player. He cant tell me for sure what unit is exactly included in this package.

I am assuming it is just a VS-100. In the "demo" setup you are getting have you been told if there is also a separate zone player included??

Phil
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post #86 of 238
5/1/08 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

Hey Norm,

I have a demo system placed on backorder also. The price I have been quoted is JUST TOO GOOD TO PASS UP!!

However, my distributor still isnt sure exactly what unit(s) are included in the demo. The notation in the price books just say Escient Dealer Demo Server/Player. He cant tell me for sure what unit is exactly included in this package.

I am assuming it is just a VS-100. In the "demo" setup you are getting have you been told if there is also a separate zone player included??

Phil

Phil, I will PM you on that. I don't know how much of Escient policy should be shared on an open forum. Regards, Norm
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post #87 of 238
5/1/08 at 4:54pm
Hi Norm,

No problem. Dont get me wrong. I did not want prices to be shown here!

I was just curious if there are specific units being included in a "dealer demo" pkg. for US dealers. In my updated Cdn. pricing sheets, it only shows: DEALER DEMO SERVER/PLAYER. $ XXXX

I am assuming it is just a VS-100. Even it is just the one unit, its a great deal so no biggee.

Its just driving me crazy that I cant even get straight answers my own distributor on this new line. Not his fault really. Escient is just not really giving out much info on this line. I have 2 customers who are waiting for this product and its getting really annoying.
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post #88 of 238
5/1/08 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaPhil View Post

Hi Norm,

No problem. Dont get me wrong. I did not want prices to be shown here!

I was just curious if there are specific units being included in a "dealer demo" pkg. for US dealers. In my updated Cdn. pricing sheets, it only shows: DEALER DEMO SERVER/PLAYER. $ XXXX

I am assuming it is just a VS-100. Even it is just the one unit, its a great deal so no biggee.

Its just driving me crazy that I cant even get straight answers my own distributor on this new line. Not his fault really. Escient is just not really giving out much info on this line. I have 2 customers who are waiting for this product and its getting really annoying.

As I was told the "Demo" is a VS-D, and is a limited feature model for taking to customers homes to demo the interface. It's not a production unit and not meant for sale. It wouldn't be recommended for a permanent install in a home. We ordered a full production VX-600 with a VC-1. That's what I will be reporting on, on this forum when I get it up and running on our reference system. Regards, Norm
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post #89 of 238
5/5/08 at 2:00am
the demo unit will be a vs-100 with a smaller hard drive capable of holding a limited number of movies, music and photos.
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post #90 of 238
5/5/08 at 2:14pm
Yes.... Confirmed its a limited function non-production model. I dont even see the point of this unit quite frankly.

Scratch that one off the list.

I will probably look into a VC1 with a VX600 (As much as I hate the idea of an $ 8,000 NAS), but will probably WAIT until the BD Changer details are confirmed.
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