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**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - Page 8

post #211 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_donkey View Post

they are probably too busy with their firmwares and network problems

Now, play nice, little donkey. They are working on all sorts of things. Be patient. All good things come to him who waits.
post #212 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

It sounds like this audio glitch is some sort of full-scale-ish dc squarewave. Depending on the native filtering present on the amplifier, the result will be some degree of "pop" from the initial pulse of the signal. If there is not enough dc-filtering, the "pop" will be accompanied by some amount of infrasonic pulse (perhaps, the character of a "gunshot"). If any of the analog stages in the chain are getting overloaded from such a signal, they may contribute their own additional break-up modes to the audio result, as well.

As for why it occurs, maybe there is some errata in certain decoding chips (maybe not even isolated to a particular chip family, rather an implementation version that was in effect on some manufacturing lot, one week). The errata causes a disruption in decoding when the right conditions are present to trigger it. Normally, this would not be a problem (as a digital decoding spec should certainly have some built-in tolerance to corrupt data or intermittently poor signal conditions). So, perhaps this is suggesting a bad failsafe mode in the DTS Master algorithm, itself? When corrupt data or temporary interruption of stream is encountered, the worst that should happen is a quiet click or a repeated sound sample (if you can hear it, at all). If the decoder issues a fullscale "pop" or has to reset from a crash which causes a nasty "pop" transient, that is very bad practice. Somewhere along the line, a failsafe mode is not behaving as it should.

A drop-out in hdmi encryption should not be counted out, as well.

I don't think this is the fault of any one party (which makes it that much more difficult to get action, of course). I DO think there are specific parties that should be involved to investigate this and make any corrections they can in their respective arenas.

DTS should be investigating their failsafe modes and verify that their licensees are producing properly compliant chips (such that these failsafe modes are working properly in these chips). The data stream could be good/bad/intermittent, but under no circumstances is it appropriate for a fullscale "pop" to be the resulting sound.

Similarly, manufacturers should be verifying that the DTS chips they are using are working according to spec (especially, regarding the failsafe modes from bad signals or crashes).

Disc mastering houses should be verifying that they are indeed encoding DTS legal streams, in the moments where these "pops" are recurring.

Jesse Jackson may require some charity grant, as well. I have not heard him weigh in on this, just yet.

Now this is one very detailed, descriptive, well beyond most users knowledge synopsis. If you happen to be onto the actual root cause then kudos to the knowledge you've acquired from somewhere because that is some complex S***.
post #213 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

It sounds like this audio glitch is some sort of full-scale-ish dc squarewave. Depending on the native filtering present on the amplifier, the result will be some degree of "pop" from the initial pulse of the signal. If there is not enough dc-filtering, the "pop" will be accompanied by some amount of infrasonic pulse (perhaps, the character of a "gunshot"). If any of the analog stages in the chain are getting overloaded from such a signal, they may contribute their own additional break-up modes to the audio result, as well.

As for why it occurs, maybe there is some errata in certain decoding chips (maybe not even isolated to a particular chip family, rather an implementation version that was in effect on some manufacturing lot, one week). The errata causes a disruption in decoding when the right conditions are present to trigger it. Normally, this would not be a problem (as a digital decoding spec should certainly have some built-in tolerance to corrupt data or intermittently poor signal conditions). So, perhaps this is suggesting a bad failsafe mode in the DTS Master algorithm, itself? When corrupt data or temporary interruption of stream is encountered, the worst that should happen is a quiet click or a repeated sound sample (if you can hear it, at all). If the decoder issues a fullscale "pop" or has to reset from a crash which causes a nasty "pop" transient, that is very bad practice. Somewhere along the line, a failsafe mode is not behaving as it should.

A drop-out in hdmi encryption should not be counted out, as well.

I don't think this is the fault of any one party (which makes it that much more difficult to get action, of course). I DO think there are specific parties that should be involved to investigate this and make any corrections they can in their respective arenas.

DTS should be investigating their failsafe modes and verify that their licensees are producing properly compliant chips (such that these failsafe modes are working properly in these chips). The data stream could be good/bad/intermittent, but under no circumstances is it appropriate for a fullscale "pop" to be the resulting sound.

Similarly, manufacturers should be verifying that the DTS chips they are using are working according to spec (especially, regarding the failsafe modes from bad signals or crashes).

Disc mastering houses should be verifying that they are indeed encoding DTS legal streams, in the moments where these "pops" are recurring.

Jesse Jackson may require some charity grant, as well. I have not heard him weigh in on this, just yet.

Mr. Hanky:

Please pass this on to the BDA and BDA CEs. This is not a small matter. Well thought out response.
post #214 of 2238
Are you trying to imply that I am some sort of insider? I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once, though.

I don't have any contacts with bda or bda ce's to pass this on to. If there is anyone here that does, please do feel free to use my post to bring to their attention. ...and if anyone in the industry wants to hire me for my knowledge for $80k + annual, please do pm me.
post #215 of 2238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_donkey View Post

they are probably too busy with their firmwares and network problems

At least our receivers don't cause pets to run away, heart attacks and most importantly...speakers to explode!

But seriously, there has been no reports on Denons having this issue.
post #216 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I don't have the equipment to capture it like that. I can send them a picture of my dog pawing at the sliding door trying to get out of the house.....

I also think it is worth mentioning, if your receiver can duplicate the issue consistently and predictably, you may consider surrendering it to the manufacturer for Q/A study. Ideally, the disc and disc player should accompany it. Naturally, you should be granted a replacement piece (that hopefully does not behave the same way), for anything you give up. It's an extra level of sacrifice/dedication to the cause, I agree. Just keep it in mind as an option, if you are really serious about following up with the manufacturer(s).

I think this is critical point in tracking the problem down, since if somebody else with nearly or literally the same equipment cannot duplicate the issue, then it becomes very difficult to convince anyone that a problem exists, in the first place. If your equipment (along with others here and there) is doing it, there must be something particular about it. There is simply no substitute to having that exact item to examine (tear down, if need be), rather than only access to another item of the same model that "might" do it. Intermittent-based problems are a real tough thing to resolve, due to their inherent elusiveness.
post #217 of 2238
I'm very curious to find out whether internally decoding DTS-HD MA results in the same anomaly. I posted that question in the 3800 owners thread and asked them to reply here.
post #218 of 2238
Denon receivers are fine
I wanted the Denon 3808 myself but changed my mind at the last minute.

I still think it's a receiver problem. I hope I can test it soon too when I get my BD30
I got the Firmware from Yamaha Europe. I will install it after i tested myself.

On the European Bluray of Master and Commander at 17:24 min there is a loud bang on the left side with the DTS HD MA track.
Can someone test it?
post #219 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post

I'm very curious to find out whether internally decoding DTS-HD MA results in the same anomaly. I posted that question in the 3800 owners thread and asked them to reply here.


That is a good question...I was wondering the same thing!!!

Man, that is crazy for spending over $1500.00 bucks for a Blu Ray player, even though it is Dennon

My opinion is if the issues are not happening when the player decodes DTS MA and sends it LPCM, then when and if the PS3 gest DTS MA, I will not have to worry about it, only on my XA2; in which I only have one disc with DTS MA
post #220 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Does the Denon 3808 AVR receiver have this problem as well?

I have a Denon 3808 and the Panny player as well...
No problems and I have watched the Fantastic 4 movie without any problems...
post #221 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

It sounds like this audio glitch is some sort of full-scale-ish dc squarewave. Depending on the native filtering present on the amplifier, the result will be some degree of "pop" from the initial pulse of the signal. If there is not enough dc-filtering, the "pop" will be accompanied by some amount of infrasonic pulse (perhaps, the character of a "gunshot"). If any of the analog stages in the chain are getting overloaded from such a signal, they may contribute their own additional break-up modes to the audio result, as well.

As for why it occurs, maybe there is some errata in certain decoding chips (maybe not even isolated to a particular chip family, rather an implementation version that was in effect on some manufacturing lot, one week). The errata causes a disruption in decoding when the right conditions are present to trigger it. Normally, this would not be a problem (as a digital decoding spec should certainly have some built-in tolerance to corrupt data or intermittently poor signal conditions). So, perhaps this is suggesting a bad failsafe mode in the DTS Master algorithm, itself? When corrupt data or temporary interruption of stream is encountered, the worst that should happen is a quiet click or a repeated sound sample (if you can hear it, at all). If the decoder issues a fullscale "pop" or has to reset from a crash which causes a nasty "pop" transient, that is very bad practice. Somewhere along the line, a failsafe mode is not behaving as it should.

A drop-out in hdmi encryption should not be counted out, as well.

I don't think this is the fault of any one party (which makes it that much more difficult to get action, of course). I DO think there are specific parties that should be involved to investigate this and make any corrections they can in their respective arenas.

DTS should be investigating their failsafe modes and verify that their licensees are producing properly compliant chips (such that these failsafe modes are working properly in these chips). The data stream could be good/bad/intermittent, but under no circumstances is it appropriate for a fullscale "pop" to be the resulting sound.

Similarly, manufacturers should be verifying that the DTS chips they are using are working according to spec (especially, regarding the failsafe modes from bad signals or crashes).

Disc mastering houses should be verifying that they are indeed encoding DTS legal streams, in the moments where these "pops" are recurring.

Jesse Jackson may require some charity grant, as well. I have not heard him weigh in on this, just yet.

I have always believed in, You get what you pay for... Not to start a World War on Onkyo vs. Denon, but there is a reason why the Denon Receivers are $800+ more for a similar products. Not to mention the Heat issues with Onkyo... IMO
post #222 of 2238
I have a Denon 3808 and can confirm that there's no speaker-damaging popping-sound problems. In fact I haven't had any problems at all with the 3808, networking, firmware updating or otherwise. This is by far the best reciever I have owned to date. (I might add that you ought to have a good internet connection before updating your fw. or else it will take a loong time)


Here I'm quoting myself from the "Audio pop on Chronos Bluray DTS-HD" thread on the software forum;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post

I can hear no popping, crackling or other anomelies. In short, there's no problems whatsoever bitstreaming DTS-HD MA from my Samsung BDP-1400 (Silicon image Vastlane 9134 Chip) to my Denon 3808 (also Silicon Image chip i believe?).

I don't know what HRA decoding chips the Onkyos and Yahamaha uses. The Panasonic BD30 uses it's own propriatery UniPher chip. I see that most of the people with problems are using Panasonic BD30... maybe the problem is with the player(s) and not the recievers or authoring ...?
post #223 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by little_donkey View Post

they are probably too busy with their firmwares and network problems

At least Denon stands by their product. I haven't had an issue with my receiver since I bought it in Setp. 07. And I have updated the Firmware just to keep it up to date!
post #224 of 2238
Maybe its the combination of the Panny and Onkyo/Yamaha that somehow causes the problem, and not necessarily one or the other independently. I don't have another BR player to try that theory out. Anyone else have an Onkyo or Yamaha and access to another BR player that can do bitstream?

Maybe we should get a bit more methodical about this so we can confirm what combinations exhibit the problem and contact the manufacturers per the suggestions earlier in the thread. If we have verified problematic combinations, it shouldn't take them long to figure it out:

BD30 + Onkyo / Yamaha = Problem
BD30 + Denon = NO problem?
Denon BR + Onkyo / Yamaha = ?
Denon BR + Denon Rec = No Problem

etc...

Shamus, maybe you could put the results on the first post of the thread?
post #225 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange_brew View Post

Maybe its the combination of the Panny and Onkyo/Yamaha that somehow causes the problem, and not necessarily one or the other independently. I don't have another BR player to try that theory out. Anyone else have an Onkyo or Yamaha and access to another BR player that can do bitstream?

Maybe we should get a bit more methodical about this so we can confirm what combinations exhibit the problem and contact the manufacturers per the suggestions earlier in the thread. If we have verified problematic combinations, it shouldn't take them long to figure it out:

BD30 + Onkyo / Yamaha = Problem
BD30 + Denon = NO problem?
Denon BR + Onkyo / Yamaha = ?
Denon BR + Denon Rec = No Problem

etc...

Shamus, maybe you could put the results on the first post of the thread?

I have the xa2 and Onk 705... Eagles Farewell concert @ 23:40 get the loud "pop" as I bitstream the DTS MA to the reciever
post #226 of 2238
Here's a summary thus far (Moderator if you could place this within the very first post that would be great)

Movies that are reported to exhibit the "POP": It's the DTS HD MA Track only (Sent via bitstream ONLY)
1408
Golden Compass
The Fly
Chronos
Fantastic Four
Hannibal Rising (HD DVD)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Eagles Fairwell Concert (HD DVD)

Receivers that have reported hearing this "POP"
Onkyo 605, 705, 805, PR885
Integra 8.8 (My dealers 8.8), 9.8
Yamaha RX-V3800, RX-V1800
Pioneer 91txh

Players that have been used to bitstream the DTS HD MA track
Toshiba HD-A35
Toshiba XA2
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic BD30
Denon 3800

Also review the following post for testing that has been done

Keep in mind that the test I had done with my dealer EVERYTHING was that same in each test except for the receiver being changed.

Post #188 on page 7
Post #206 on page 7
Post #216 on page 8
Post # 220 on page 8

Also I think that Mr. Hanky is likely on to the root cause of this in
Post #229 on page 8

Other know facts thus far

Testing has proven that a Marantz SR8002 does NOT exhibit this POP with the exact same sources as the Integras that did
A few users with Denon receivers also have NOT heard this pop
So it is believed thus far that the Marantz & Denon HDMI V1.3 receivers are NOT exhibiting this POP sound when the DTS HD MA track of posted Movie sources is bitstreamed to the receiver for decoding.
post #227 of 2238
I didn't know Hannibal Rising was available on HD DVD? Is this a euro release?
post #228 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwest User1 View Post

Here's a summary thus far (Moderator if you could place this within the very first post that would be great)

Movies that are reported to exhibit the "POP": It's the DTS HD MA Track only
1408
Golden Compass
The Fly
Chronos
Fantastic Four
Hannibal Rising (HD DVD)
Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Eagles Fairwell Concert (HD DVD)

Receivers that have reported hearing this "POP"
Onkyo 605, 705, 805, PR885
Integra 8.8 (My dealers 8.8), 9.8
Yamaha RX-V3800, RX-V1800
Pioneer 91txh

Players that have been used to bitstream the DTS HD MA track
Toshiba HD-A35
Pioneer BDP-95FD
Panasonic BD30

Also review the following post for testing that has been done

Keep in mind that the test I had done with my dealer EVERYTHING was that same in each test except for the receiver being changed.

Post #188 on page 7
Post #206 on page 7
Post #216 on page 8
Post # 220 on page 8

Also I think that Mr. Hanky is likely on to the root cause of this in
Post #229 on page 8

Other know facts thus far

Testing has proven that a Marantz SR8002 does NOT exhibit this POP with the exact same sources as the Integras that did
A few users with Denon receivers also have NOT heard this pop
So it is believed thus far that the Marantz & Denon HDMI V1.3 receivers are NOT exhibiting this POP sound when the DTS HD MA track of posted Movie sources is bitstreamed to the receiver for decoding.

you may want to include the Toshiba XA2 as a player that bitstreams the DTS MA also!
post #229 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irrenarzt View Post

I didn't know Hannibal Rising was available on HD DVD? Is this a euro release?

I just put that in there as someone reported that within this thread.
post #230 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by shabre View Post

you may want to include the Toshiba XA2 as a player that bitstreams the DTS MA also!

I added it to the list.
post #231 of 2238
SO, if some do and some don't (receivers), is this a hardware or software issue (or both)?
post #232 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

SO, if some do and some don't (receivers), is this a hardware or software issue (or both)?

Some of the people I've been in touch with believe this is an HDMI code fixable issue. Meaning a firmware update to the affected receivers will be able to correct it. Again this is believed to be the case at this point. We will obvioulsy find out soon enough.
post #233 of 2238
post #234 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster109 View Post

I have always believed in, You get what you pay for... Not to start a World War on Onkyo vs. Denon, but there is a reason why the Denon Receivers are $800+ more for a similar products. Not to mention the Heat issues with Onkyo... IMO

The Integra 8.8 receiver retails for $2400, and the Integra 9.8 is a pre-amp only that retails for $1600.
post #235 of 2238
In regards to this issue with the Denon 3800. Yes. I can confirm this, with 'The Fly'. Around the 4th scene a loud bang, that sounded like a gunshot happened. After I changed my underwear, I checked to see if my speakers were damaged. Thankfully, they weren't, and I turned the movie off. Looks like The Fly will get decoded by the 3800, in the future. It happened exactly where Shamus pointed out in this topic.

edit: I just played the same scene, and the "pop" happens at the same time. So, I switched the 3800 to LPCM, and played the scene, again, this time it had no pop. So it seems like it only happens in Bitstream mode. I am using the Integra 9.8, with Blue Jeans HDMI cables, by the way.
post #236 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodshed View Post

The Integra 8.8 receiver retails for $2400, and the Integra 9.8 is a pre-amp only that retails for $1600.

Integra is the same company as Onkyo

Like Marantz and Denon
post #237 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Integra is the same company as Onkyo

Like Marantz and Denon


I know. And?

His point was that you get what you pay for, which I tend to subscribe to. But if expensive products in the same lines have the problem, I don't believe that Onkyo being "inexpensive" is the reason.
post #238 of 2238
Yes. You must pay more to get better results. Didn't you guy's know that Rolex watches can tell time better than Timex watches?

It doesn't matter if it's a $100. Sony receiver. This "popping" BS shouldn't happen.
post #239 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky View Post

Are you trying to imply that I am some sort of insider? I did sleep at a Holiday Inn once, though.

You meant Holiday Inn Express......right?
post #240 of 2238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Integra is the same company as Onkyo

Like Marantz and Denon

Uh, let's be careful not to imply that Marantz is an upgraded Denon like Integra is to Onkyo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eulogytool View Post

Didn't you guy's know that Rolex watches can tell time better than Timex watches?

Rolex maybe not, Breitling yes.
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