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Bye Bye good Picture Quality at IMAX

post #1 of 264
3/19/08 at 4:34am
Thread Starter 
very sad imax will replace all the 70mm film with cinema dlps.

they will not have eoungh light much much less resolution but the
70mm copys are to expensive.

that is a big chance for sony 8mil. pixel pr. 220 or a jvc with almost
10 mil. pixel but even the sony with 18000 lumen is not bright
as they need.

i hear that they use some new modify dlp cinema pr. with a higher light out
in the almost 30000 lumen range but thats much lower than the
70mm can do and resolution wise we better not think about it.

now we have at home almost the same resolution as a imax in the near future
incredible!

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080318PR204.html
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post #2 of 264
3/19/08 at 5:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

very sad imax will replace all the 70mm film with cinema dlps.

they will not have eoungh light much much less resolution but the
70mm copys are to expensive.

that is a big chance for sony 8mil. pixel pr. 220 or a jvc with almost
10 mil. pixel but even the sony with 18000 lumen is not bright
as they need.

i hear that they use some new modify dlp cinema pr. with a higher light out
in the almost 30000 lumen range but thats much lower than the
70mm can do and resolution wise we better not think about it.

now we have at home almost the same resolution as a imax in the near future
incredible!

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20080318PR204.html

I was hoping that you would chime in. I know that IMAX was just starting to get a toe hold with their conversions of recent releases over the last few years and that they were looked upon primarily as a part of bigger picture( no pun intended) in a overall cineplex but yes, this is sad. The bar has been lowered. I'm glad I had the chance to see it in it's glory before this happened.

Art
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post #3 of 264
3/19/08 at 9:19am
W.Mayer
Digital projection did a presentation with a dlp projector array producing 26Mpixels and 224000 ANSI lumen at ISE 2008.
Why wouldn´t IMAX use a dlp-projector array?
They could do 4k and about 100000 ANSI lumen with a 4 projector setup.
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post #4 of 264
3/19/08 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Digital projection did a presentation with a dlp projector array producing 26Mpixels and 224000 ANSI lumen at ISE 2008.
Why wouldn´t IMAX use a dlp-projector array?
They could do 4k and about 100000 ANSI lumen with a 4 projector setup.

I agree.

I can't imagine that IMAX would think that they could market a presentation that doesn't significantly exceed current D-Cinema.


Ken Whitcomb
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post #5 of 264
3/19/08 at 10:51am
I optimistically look at this as the beginning of great, not just good, picture quality at IMAX. Beside, they probably need to get their feet wet and see what is possible in anticipation of 10MP or great PJ technology. If IMAX drives this, imagine what will filter to the home environment because of it.
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post #6 of 264
3/19/08 at 10:59am
"each IMAX Digital projection system to be deployed to commercial exhibitors around the world, scheduled to begin mid-2008, will be powered by DLP Cinema projectors."

Note the plural. I think it virtually certain they will use multiple projectors. Christie appears to have the necessary hardware and software: http://www.christiedigital.com/AMEN/...ctorArrays.htm
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post #7 of 264
3/19/08 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

W.Mayer
Digital projection did a presentation with a dlp projector array producing 26Mpixels and 224000 ANSI lumen at ISE 2008.
Why wouldn´t IMAX use a dlp-projector array?
They could do 4k and about 100000 ANSI lumen with a 4 projector setup.

yes they can but no they will not do it
for the same reason why the drop the 70mm film

"COSTS"

the may use 2 pr. for 3d but thats not double the resolution normal films.
i get this info from a guy that own a imax cinema.

sad that sony is again not successful with the new 18000 lumen
4k cinema pr. the 220.

if they are successful ti have to come out with a 4k dlp but without
that why they should destroy there good business that
they have.
99.95% of all todays digital cinemas are dlp!
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post #8 of 264
3/19/08 at 12:50pm
Me broken record
I hope applying lasers can make uniformity more controllble for Sony with their 4k projectors.
Now this is not just me speculating again. The possible application of lasers with digital cinema are topics at upcoming industry events. I do not remember if it was NAB or Projector summit. They might just be blowing air but that is hard for me to know.
http://www.smpte.org/events/smpte_nab/
W.Mayer
Don´t you think a 2x2 setup can be within IMAX´s budget?
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post #9 of 264
3/19/08 at 1:26pm
Oh crap. I can see the blend zone...........
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post #10 of 264
3/21/08 at 8:07am
OK
This DUAL digital projection format will be ONE of SEVERAL offered by IMAX.
http://www.imax.com/corporate/conten...tion_equip.jsp

It looks like the analog original film based IMAX format will continue to be the top dog.
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post #11 of 264
3/21/08 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

OK
This DUALl digital projection format will be ONE of SEVERAL offered by IMAX.
http://www.imax.com/corporate/conten...tion_equip.jsp

It looks like the analog original film based IMAX format will continue to be the top dog.

Well there you go , it's official based on that. They will be replacing 50MP plus film with 4MP digital.

Art
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post #12 of 264
3/21/08 at 11:07am
Art
Who is talking about replacing the IMAX original format.

IMAX has several formats now and one of them will be using two digital projectors.
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post #13 of 264
3/21/08 at 11:19am
Mattias,
This looks like it to me:

http://gizmodo.com/367129/imax-theat...dlp-projectors
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post #14 of 264
3/21/08 at 11:33am
Art
Hopefully the transition will be slow. When 4k dlp evntually comes it might not be too bad. There have been studies showing the the projected resolution of film is much lover than the resolution of the film negative.
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post #15 of 264
3/25/08 at 3:17am
Thread Starter 
someone that is include in this deal told me that most of the
imax will get 2 very bright dlp cinema projektors.

one reason is to do 3d with 2 pr. because of the huge screen and
when they show 2d movies they will also use both and
make a stack to increase the light out.

so the resolution will be still 2048x1080 but when you stack pr.
you can see in such a picture because you never get the pixeles
that good on top of each other that this picture looks like it have
more resolution than without the stack.
(i had in my live 3 stacks and i can confirm that this is the case)
and they get the light out they need with 2 systems at once.

but again this system just have good 6% more than what we have at home
and therefore this is a sad development.

ti where is your 4k chip?

but i guess there business is so good they not need to come up with such
new chips and that also will kills there good sales they have today.

sad that sony is not successful with there new 4k cinema pr. the 220.
that can leave pressure to ti but thats is not the case.
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post #16 of 264
3/25/08 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

ti where is your 4k chip?

2K in 3D is much better for human brain than flat 4K
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post #17 of 264
3/25/08 at 7:58pm
Wolfgang, they could do what NHK/JVC did with the proof of concept prototype projector used in the NHK 8 demoes. 4 4K chips, one red, one blue and two green, the second green channel off-set by a quarter pixel to right and top, to get '8K resolution' in green.

The Sony's are being used in planetaria, by SkySkan, they put two in at the Amsterdam planetarium, which was upgraded last year.

"Amsterdam, The Netherlands. The world-renowned Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam, boasting 1.2 million visitors per year, will be the first site in Europe to receive the latest projection technology in Sky-Skan’s definiti™ theater line. In a ceremony today, Sky-Skan president Steve Savage met with Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam director Haig Balian to sign the contract for the new theater. In an exciting first for a European Full Dome theater, two Sony SXRD projectors will show the night sky with amazing clarity along with exciting Full Dome video shows from top-notch producers. The change to Sky-Skan marks the sixth theater to be contracted in 2006 which will take advantage of the definiti HD lens that allows SXRD projectors from Sony to work in the unique dome environment. Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam already had Sky-Skan’s SPICE Automation handling control duties in the theater, so adding this digital projection completes an already fruitful relationship between the two organizations.

The renovated theater will seat 328 visitors under a 20-meter (66-foot) dome. The theater is part of the large Zoo complex, a location well-known as the oldest and most prestigious zoo on the European continent. The playback shows slated for the location include Mirage3D’s life and planetary science epic Origins of Life, and the lively computer animated characters of Kaluoka’hina, The Enchanted Reef from Softmachine."
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post #18 of 264
3/25/08 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Wolfgang, they could do what NHK/JVC did with the proof of concept prototype projector used in the NHK 8 demoes. 4 4K chips, one red, one blue and two green, the second green channel off-set by a quarter pixel to right and top, to get '8K resolution' in green.

Thats pretty clever. So in a sense any manufacture could do the same right now with 1080 chips and give us a 4k DLP. Its cheating, similar to the wobulation technique but if it works it could be a neat solution until we get true 4k DLPs.
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post #19 of 264
3/26/08 at 4:32am
Thread Starter 
yes they can do this but the will not do it.

they will using them the normally way and a bet
that most of them will use 2 pr. only for 3d and not
as a stack for 2d.


agree that 3d at 2k is for most people better than 4k in 2d.

thats why i am working hard to find a way to feed my 3d content
with a normally computer to such pr. without the need for a 3d server.

i have solve 97% of all the problems and i looking forward to solve
the rest as well in the next 3-4 weeks.
very very much work because i hear from reald yesterday the
they know no one that did this before.
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post #20 of 264
3/26/08 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

yes they can do this but the will not do it.

This is to bad because we could benefit from the 4k fill factor now with out the need for special inputs or content. Just feed the projector our current source and let the projector output 1080p yet we would benefit from the two green panels extra fill. When your not an engineer these things sound so simple
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post #21 of 264
3/26/08 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

This is to bad because we could benefit from the 4k fill factor now with out the need for special inputs or content. Just feed the projector our current source and let the projector output 1080p yet we would benefit from the two green panels extra fill. When your not an engineer these things sound so simple

No, you need to feed the extra resolution, NHK did not downconvert the demoloops, they did do this (well Astro Design did) for the 4K lcd screens outside the demotheater. They also had the older 4 chip 8K camera on top of the exhibithall with real time downconversion.

For wobulation chips you also had to feed full res imagery, it may have been scled to the full resolution but you need something to show after the chip wobbled to the second position.
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post #22 of 264
3/26/08 at 11:30am
Little off topic I wonder if Godzilla 3D will be presented on the new projectors. Godzilla 3D for Imax Theatres only is due out beginning of 09
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post #23 of 264
3/26/08 at 4:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

... sad that sony is not successful with there new 4k cinema pr. the 220. ...

It seems that resolution alone is not the road to success.
Can you share the reasons that have contributed to Sony's lack of success?
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post #24 of 264
3/27/08 at 7:43am
JVC have true 8k panels on their road map. It seems like JVC looks at the entire system since they are also working their way to a 8k camera.

Temperature gradients over the panel must be hard to handle as well as too much heat. I suggest a cooler light source. Upcoming Dcinema seminars will at least discuss the possibiliy of replacing xenons with lasers.
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post #25 of 264
3/27/08 at 2:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post

It seems that resolution alone is not the road to success.
Can you share the reasons that have contributed to Sony's lack of success?

you not read all my posts or?

that not easy to answer but will try it one more time.

the most importan point you already say "resolution alone is not the road to success"

that is because 35 mm film most of the time not contains more than 2k anyway.
Eastman EXR 50 D arround 4 mil pixels
Kodak Vision 100 T / 200 T daylight 2-3 mil. pixels
Kodak Vision 320 T / 500 T less than 2 mil. pixels
Kodak Vision 800 T bis 1,5 mil. pixels.

this are the most used 35mm filmtypes today!

than because of the mtf a pr. with 8 mil. pixels not can show them all like
the dlp system can do.

no movies in 4k there.

how will carry two digiatal versions of a movie at 2k AND 4k?

dlp proof that the pr. that are running 3000 houres per year are reliable.
lcos have many problems like shading etc.
(thats not the case for home pr. i talk only about high lumen cinema pr.!)

the new 220 sony can do 18000 lumen the new dlp go to 30000 lumens.

i will not go further but that todays cinemas have 99.98% dlp pr. say it all.

may it change by time when for sample the red camera 4k system
will be heavy used and or other 4k camera systems find the way to the
market.
this will take years and by then may ti have a 4k pr. as well.


with todays 35mm 4k make not a big sense for the average joe
because he will not see the difference anyway

but still MY dream is to have 4k in 3d in still pictures and movie
AT MY HOME.
hope i will see it in my live.
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post #26 of 264
3/27/08 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Wolfgang, they could do what NHK/JVC did with the proof of concept prototype projector used in the NHK 8 demoes. 4 4K chips, one red, one blue and two green, the second green channel off-set by a quarter pixel to right and top, to get '8K resolution' in green.

The Sony's are being used in planetaria, by SkySkan, they put two in at the Amsterdam planetarium, which was upgraded last year.

"Amsterdam, The Netherlands. The world-renowned Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam, boasting 1.2 million visitors per year, will be the first site in Europe to receive the latest projection technology in Sky-Skan's definiti theater line. In a ceremony today, Sky-Skan president Steve Savage met with Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam director Haig Balian to sign the contract for the new theater. In an exciting first for a European Full Dome theater, two Sony SXRD projectors will show the night sky with amazing clarity along with exciting Full Dome video shows from top-notch producers. The change to Sky-Skan marks the sixth theater to be contracted in 2006 which will take advantage of the definiti HD lens that allows SXRD projectors from Sony to work in the unique dome environment. Artis Royal Zoo Amsterdam already had Sky-Skan's SPICE Automation handling control duties in the theater, so adding this digital projection completes an already fruitful relationship between the two organizations.

The renovated theater will seat 328 visitors under a 20-meter (66-foot) dome. The theater is part of the large Zoo complex, a location well-known as the oldest and most prestigious zoo on the European continent. The playback shows slated for the location include Mirage3D's life and planetary science epic Origins of Life, and the lively computer animated characters of Kaluoka'hina, The Enchanted Reef from Softmachine."


The space flight from the earths surface to the outer limits of the known univers is very impressive.

They need to work a bit on the blend. The ISS had a strange bend when projected over the blending area when we flew past it.
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post #27 of 264
3/27/08 at 4:30pm
Thanks for the eyewitness report Frank, never been to the Artis planetarium, nor the preceeding Zeiss Planetarium at Gaasperplas. Well not while it was a working planetarium, attended a conference there last year. the dome houses the conference center's two restaurants, and unfortunately they put in a ceiling. Or have I, as a kid we went to a planetarium once, on a schooltrip, probably the Omniversum in the Hague, but could have been the Zeis Planetarium in this large park on the outskirts of Amsterdam aswell.
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post #28 of 264
3/28/08 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

you not read all my posts or? that not easy to answer but will try it one more time.

Sorry, I wasn't more explicit. I was primarily wondering why so few movie theater chains have selected the Sony 4K units.

I suspect that, as you point out, the DLP units have a good track record in terms of reliability. DLP established quite a large installed base before Sony got to the market.

I agree with your observation that most 35mm film does not have resolution needing more than a 2K projector.

Last fall, the Muvico chain based in Florida opened an 18 theater complex in the Chicago suburbs equipped with the Sony 4K projectors. I saw one film there, and didn't really find it superior to 2K DLP. Muvico plans to open a new complex in downtown Chicago in about a year. It will be interesting to see what they use!
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post #29 of 264
4/9/08 at 10:09am
Quote:


I saw one film there, and didn't really find it superior to 2K DLP.

If they were using a perforated screen, that may be a large part of the reason. Tests have been conducted for cinema professionals comparing 4K to 2K on a 50 ft. wide perfed screen and they could not distinguish between the two. The same group could also readily recognize an increase in resolution when 2K was demonstrated on a non-perfed vs. a perfed screen.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
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post #30 of 264
4/22/08 at 4:02am
Thread Starter 
i talk today with some developer of cinema dlp units about this issue and he confirm me
that there will be only high brightness 2048x1080 pr. used
for imax and that there is no 4k dlp on the horizon any time soon.

i think it will take at least 3 years to see a 4k dlp cinema pr.
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