Official LNXXA650 Calibration/Settings Thread - Page 121

As before, your RGB levels look remarkably smooth. All the Samsung LCDs have a variation somewhere at the low end. Mine has a blue hump around 25%, some have a blue hump around 40%, yours seems to have a hump around 20%. You are taking the same approach I have, to try to minimize the error in the middle and high ends, as any remaining color error seems less visible at the low end.

So, you have a more normal level of gamma, probably a little low as if you want to go back to a gamma value of -1 or -2. Since your gamma dropped so much, I infer that the high gamma before as an artifact of Energy Saving being set to Auto. As it stands, the picture should look a little flat, as if there is not enough depth of field. In your case, I would start moving the gamma to -1. Pushing it higher than that might make the gamma too high at the low end and crush blacks too much. (But see the Spyder remarks below.)

Later you can try a trick I described here that worked for me to create a lump such that the gamma at the low end turns back downward, but it has not worked for everyone. When playing with the gamma at the low end, I used the 5% grayscale measures and then the Near Black HCFR test and AVSHD pattern to measure from 0%, 1%, ..., 9%, 10% levels. On the Near Black test, if you right click on the graphical display and change to log format, the resulting numbers are gamma values.

I just looked back and noticed that you wrote you had a Spyder2. Most people I've seen have used the EyeOne to calibrate the A650. In fact, I see only one other person in this thread having ever mentioned a Spyder. So it could be that the lower contrast ratio you are measuring is just a difference in the probe, and not an issue with the set at all. If the Spyder2 doesn't measure down to 0.1fL cd/m2, it's going to be hard to compare your results with anyone else's. You may have to check for any black crush with the continuous Pluge patterns or by watching films with lots of near black content. And if this is indeed an effect of the probe, you may be able to push the gamma control to -2 and not actually lose black detail.

You did not mention what your source device was, a bluray player or a PC. Lots of complicated things can happen with a PC source; it is simpler to start with a bluray player or a PS3.

Color: here's the shorter version. Using Tom Huffman's terminology, that saturation is the distance from the white point and hue is the angle, the older CIE76 measure weighted hue and saturation error equally. So, using it, one tends to choose compromises that are on the black reference triangle. Essentially it tells you to choose the more intense color, even if it is the wrong color. CIE94 and CIE2000 are based on more and later studies of how people perceive color differences, and they emphasize hue error over saturation error. Essentially, it is more important to get the right color, even if it is less intense. So if you minimize the error using these formulas, you will tend to choose a color in line between white and the reference primary. Obviously there is a weighting process in the formula, not that one takes complete precedence over the other.

In your case, if you add more Red to the Green primary, moving your green to be near to or on the line between white and the Rec709 green, you may find that you see a lower dE measure using CIE94 or CIE2000. CIE2000 added some special treatment around red and blue, so it is hard to predict the tradeoff between hue and saturation.

As I mentioned above, Kaki did not take my word for it. But after doing some research on his own, he found enough authoritative sources to adopt CIE94. I believe it is currently the default choice with the Calman software.

Another thing to notice is that, between the standards, they changed the criteria for a minimal perceivable difference. In Tom Huffman's spreadsheet at the bottom of this Guide comparing dE calculations, he indicates that for CIELAB76, the minimum perceptible difference is 2.0 and minimal acceptable difference is 4.0, whereas with CIE94 he gives the minimum perceptible as 1.0 and minimum acceptable as 1.5 Obviously "acceptable" for us is limited to the best we can achieve with the Samsung panels.

If you are really interested and want to see the formulas, they are available on Bruce Lindbloom's site. Y enters into the calculation differently in the newer formulas, which is why the spreadsheet gives different recommendations when CIE94 or CIE2000 is chosen.

As far as the numbers in your file, it looks as if you are using the CIE76 measure, and your Y values are very close to accurate. So the picture should be looking pretty good; perhaps the green is a little dark in color, judging by the CIE94 measure, but maybe not enough to notice.

Hope this helps,
Bill

P.S. I just looked back at the experiments I made comparing a Spyder3 to an EyeOne LT. The Spyder3 reported higher light levels, at the bottom and high end, giving an overall contrast of 963:1 compared to 1446:1 for the EyeOne. This without changing any setting on the Samsung. So I think your concern about the contrast ratio being low is misplaced, it's the probe and not the calibration that is giving you different results. (By the way, I abandoned the Spyder3 after trying it because the color triangle was twisted, a problem you don't seem to be having with the Spyder2.)

Bill, my source disc is a Bluray. Thank you for checking back in your notes and finding out about my Spyder2. I thought I was going nuts trying to get my contrast to work out. As far as the color goes, am I correct to try and reduce my dE as low as possible by making x/y adj.? I will take a look at the formulas at a later date.

Please note that I uploaded a zipped file containing my new measurements to try and flatten out the 20 IRE. The 2nd. file contains the first with my Gamma adj. to "-2". The 3rd. is my new measurements with the RGB adj. out with the Gamma -2 settings. Hopefully, I am about done!! I plan on working a little more with the pri/sec. colors tomorrow.

Couple of quick questions: How do you get the graph to display inc. of 5-IRE instead of the standard 10 display? I am unable to locate the adjustment for this. Next, do you watch TV during the evening with your set in the Movie mode or do you use it only for movies?

Bill, I can't tell you how much help you have been. I would have never been able to do this without your assistance!

Thanks, Bob.

 

End of Greyscale-RGB Adj with Gamma -2.zip 7.6015625k . file

Looking at the gamma levels, it appears you could actually go another tick lower. -2 looks a little too low at the high end, without enough depth of field, but only you can decide if -3 is too dark and makes the shadows at the low end too dark.

In HCFR, under Measures->Parameters, you can increase the number of IRE levels from 10 to 20 to take measures at 5% steps. If you are using the AVSHD disk, in the same dialog you can increase the number of near black and near white levels to 10.

I like the approach of adjusting the colors to minimize the delta E. But some folks advise it is a chimera, given the limited accuracy of the low end colorimeters. What you find is that the numbers vary enough that you get close to the reasonable spot and you just have to stop. You cannot fine tune anymore because when you re-measure all seven colors, they all move a little. And you are adjusting the Y of this color relative to the white Y of your last measurement, which will change the next time you measure. So when you get to the point that you are moving the slider up one tick, then back down one tick, you are not going to get any closer and you might as well stop. I've worked on an enhanced spreadsheet to help find the optimal x-y coordinates, but it seems to not quite be done, and it will require a lot of explanation to make it usable.

I leave my set on Movie all the time. Admittedly I did two calibrations, one for Rec601 SD colors for cable and one for Rec709 for bluray. Once I had the picture color calibrated, I found the images in the movie settings were satisfying even when watching sports. Having watched lots of high school football when my son played, the fields look right to me with the movie settings. I don't need first down markers that are so bright they seem illuminated. But I will admit that is a matter of taste, and others may prefer to revert to factory presets for sports. I have no experience with gaming on this set, and in fact exaggerated colors may even be preferable there.

I happy to have gotten you started in a good direction.
Bill

Bill, I'mmmm Backkkk! Sorry, but I ran into an issue while watching a movie last night. Despite having set my contrast and brightness per the AVCHD disc, I found that I was losing a great deal of "Detail" in the shadow areas. I actually had to increase the bri from 45 to 52 and all the detail in the cave walls just popped out and was able to see. If the bri is correctly set, I shouldn't have to do this. The shadow areas were like a black wall, barely able to see that any detail was there. What should I do about this?

Also, can you set your RGB in the greyscale adj. using say, the 50 & 80 or 90 IRE as the low and high end RGB adj. or should it be only the 20 & 80 IRE that are used for the adjustments? I would like to work my way up the scale and try to adj. as many of the pts. out that I can.

Thanks, Bob.

I agree that you should not have to increase the brightness to that point. Not knowing how much confidence to put in the Spyder2, I have to be a little circumspect in making suggestions.

Brightness sounds like it may have been the wrong remedy. In principle, Brightness adjusts the blackness near zero, Contrast adjusts the level at 100%, and gamma adjusts the points in between. So if you see the same situation, you might try increasing the gamma control instead.

Had you perhaps re-enabled Energy Saving? This is the symptom you might expect to see if the set was behaving in accordance with the gamma curve you posted earlier when Energy Saving was Auto and the measured gamma was 2.9. A gamma level that high would force all levels below 30% down toward black. (This is what you would see in the HCFR using the Luminance graph. If you accepted the default target gamma of 2.22 or raised it to 2.35, the Luminance graph shows your target in white and your actual measured curve in yellow.)

I've always kept Dynamic Contrast and Black Adjust turned off, so I cannot confirm exactly what effect these would have, but I expect they provoke the same symptoms of shadow area being too dark.

Yes, you can play with the points where you balance RGB. Although many guides recommend 30% and 80%, I've seen others use 20% at the bottom or 90% at the top. When I measure grayscale at 5% increments, on my set 25% and 85% seem to give me the best results. For me, the middle stays fairly well behaved and moving towards the ends helps me keep too much color shift out of the bright whites and helps with the measured gamma at the bottom.

Something you want to do after calibrating the grayscale is go back and look at the continuous pluge pattern in the first section of the AVSHD disk. While you are there, check the Brightness again. If the grays look smooth from bottom to top, then the numbers are not lying to you. If the pattern looks way too dark at the bottom, or if you see color shifts in the middle where the measures say that RGB is balanced, then something is wrong with the instrument or the procedure.

Good luck,
Bill

Bill, thanks, I'll check out the pluge and see what it looks like. One other issue I have found with the color adj. is that my color control on the user menu is set for 40-I believe this was necessary in the color adj. for the primary colors. But, when I turn on the Blue Mode in the user menu, and check the Blue in the flashing screen fir the color/tint setup, I can only get the blue to balance out by increasing the color control back up to 50. Should I just ignore this reading since I set the color at 40 to help with the Primary color adj.?

Thanks.
Bob

Yes, if you are calibrating using the CMS you should be able to ignore the blue only mode. If you are thinking of switching between Custom color and Auto, you might find that the blue only mode sets a good Color level for Auto, and that you would then adjust these levels downward in the custom color screens. You can also use the technique of using the Color control to get about the right ratio on one of the colors first. Although Tom Huffman recommended red, because red is so far off the Rec709 target, I found I got a better result setting Color to get green at the right level, then adjusting red and blue relative to that.

Don't be surprised if the blue only mode gives different results, especially on Tint, when adjusting the custom colors. For hue, the blue only mode technique tries to set the same amount of blue in cyan and in magenta. As you adjust the colors to match the Rec709 secondary color points, given that blue itself is not at the Rec709 blue primary, when you are closest to cyan and magenta, you may not have identical amounts of blue in each.

Bill

I'll leave the blue alone. Bill, I changed my Gamma to -1 and remeasured. I have uploaded the files. When able, please take a look. Is my RGB ok or do I need to try and get it better? Also, do you think I should go back to Gamma-2? Would I need to remeasure the greyscale if I change gamma to -2?

Thanks.
Bob

 

Greyscale & Pri-Sec Colors 11-06-09.zip 4.45703125k . file

After your earlier experiences, Bob, it is hard to give advice. The numbers say that the gamma is ridiculously low. Tom Huffman suggests a target above 2.2 and below 2.35. Certainly not lower than 2.2. Yours measures 2.2. But earlier when you pushed it up you found it too dark. And if the Spyder2 reads more light across the board, perhaps this biases the measured gamma lower than the actual gamma.

The RGB grayscale levels look good, perhaps too good. Nothing weird is happening at either end. The absolute Y at 0% is high, but as we discussed before, this seems to be the way the Spyder2 works.

If you change the gamma, it is worth it to check the grayscale. It is probably the same, but it's worth the check. More importantly, one needs to look again at the Pluge pattern for a visual check. If the Pluge patterns looks like a smooth transition from black through the grays to white, and yet film seems too dark, then I would suspect some dynamic control is still on that is changing the black behavior. Fortunately, it is easier with the A650 than with the B650. There, to make it darker, Samsung added local dimming that can only be turned off in the service menu.

Bill

Well, Bill, I think I've come to an end. With your help and advice, I can't see much more I can do with the sensor I am using. Your help has been invaluable and I hope I haven't been to much of a pain in your backside for asking so many questions! I have learned a great deal. The last thing I would like to get an answer from you about, is, is there any reason to calibrate the WARM1 picture? If I am going to use Warm2 for movies, what good is Warm1? I have included my final greyscale and color files for you to see what I ended up with-different from yesterday. And NO, there are no filters or Energy Savers on-I double and triple checked everything-the RGB graph is true picture of my TV-no filters are on!

Thanks for everything!
Bob

 

Final Cal. Files 11-07-09.zip 5.96484375k . file

I agree. I think you are in good shape, given the questions about the Spyder2. Your RGB balance still looks remarkably good. The only reason I went to Warm1 was that I had some imbalances there and for me Warm1 had flatter curves to start than Warm2 and gave better results. But that's not true for everyone and certainly not for your set. Whether one starts from Warm1 or Warm2, if one calibrates to D65 White the final endpoint is the same, just the controls are set differently to get there.

I hope films now look just a little better than when you started.
Bill

nvm wrong thread

Bill, if you are still here, what do you recommend for a new sensor? I saw you said you have the EyeOne Display LT-who is the manufacturer? I saw a Panatone display and X-Rite. Is either of these the one you are using? Is this the one you would recommend to use and where did you order it from?

Thanks,
Bob.

I picked up an EyeOne LT off Amazon, and I've been happy with it. I think Pantone was the earlier name of the manufacturer, and the current name is x-rite. The LT package is the least expensive, and comes with software to build custom display profiles for Windows, which is useful when connecting a PC to the set. The more expensive packages allow one to build calibration files for printers, so that what you see on the screen is the same color you print on paper.

Thanks again Bill.
Bob.

So, I've been messing around with the settings a bit and my biggest problem is the blacks, Is this the limitations of this tv or is there something I'm doing wrong? The contrast of the darks doesn't seem to show as much detail as I'd like. It's more just a black area usually. I've been using blu rays on my PS3. It's a great tv and I've become a serious hd/blu ray whore.

So I'm doing my best to try to find good color settings for my TV, but I don't have a colorimeter (a hopeless task, I know). So at present I'm limited to true calibration of only contrast, brightness, "color", and tint. For white balance/color space, all I can do is try out some of the posted configuration and see what looks best.

So here's my questions:

1. If my calibration gives me a color of 52 and a tint of 50/50, should I look out for posted settings that have these values similar to mine? Will that increase the chances of me finding a "good match"?

2. If I want to try out some posted settings that differ in these values from mine, should I change them to my calibrated values for color/tint or will that throw off the entire white balance/color space that the settings were calibrated under? (I guess it's a theoretical question...can you have a "perfect" color setting even if your blue filter color/tint calibration doesn't match up exactly. I was just wondering if more sophisticated tests than the simple blue filter pattern allow for more complex adjustments that work around this, and can still end up in the right place in the end).

3. Using the AVSHD disc, when calibrating contrast on the white pattern with bars, when my Samsung is using default white balance (all set at 25) and Auto color space, the bars look quite pink to me. Now I know that a proper Warm2 calibration should have a nice healthy warm glow to it, but I'm pretty sure those bars shouldn't be pink on the calibration screen. So judging from my eyes, my Samsung is pushing reds. Does this mean that I should be looking for posted settings that have a lowered red-gain in order to find a "good match"?


Again, I know this isn't ideal, but I'm trying my best to get good color with only the tools I've got (test patterns, my eyes, this forum). Thanks for any advice to help with my hunting!!

1. Obviously the chances of a good match increase if you buy a colorimeter and calibrate the set. Short of that, you could adjust the color and tint with the blue mode built into the Samsung. It is more reliable than filters.

2. Filters can be off, especially if you adjust any of the colors in the Auto or Custom color space. The essence of moving the color points by adding some of the other colors is filtered out by the filters. In other words, a filter looks at the Native blue, irrespective of where the calibrated custom or Auto blue is. Yes, adjusting some of the color or grayscale adjustments affects the others, so if your set is different than someone else's, you have no idea without measuring whether changing one makes the others worse or perhaps better.

3. Here I have a real answer. If you are seeing red tint, it probably does not mean that the red is being pushed, in the sense that it is too saturated or too intense. It probably does mean that the RGB balance at the high end of the grayscale is wrong, and you could adjust the gains to balance these out.

Now that bad news. The human eye has a natural tendency to see a more blue white as cleaner. So if you are seeing red at the top end, without an instrument or calibrated grayscale cards for comparison, you really don't know if you have too much red, which can happen, or if you have too much blue in the middle making the high end look too red.

Have fun,
Bill

Thanks for the info, especially the answer to #2. I didn't think I worded the question very well, but you definitely got my meaning. So once you start messing with the color space, all bets are off in terms of the blue filter because you are redefining exactly what "blue" is, as well as the other colors.

OK, well I have an extremely crazy week and no time to play around with the TV for a few days, but hopefully I'll get the chance to try some settings this weekend.

Anyone know what page I can find some DIRECTV calibration

what if I download Digital Video Essentials or AVS HD 709, and run it from my PC connected via DVI-HDMI connector, would it be the same as burning into DVD9 or Bluray?, or would my computer video card configuration "interfere" (as for its color, etc, configuration) ?

thanks

I imagine that depends on the video card, the driver, and what software you use to play the DVD. On my Dell laptop, that is all different. Calibrating from the PC is certainly recommended if that is how you will watch movies, though.

Better if you will watch movies from a DVD or bluray player, would be to obtain DVE on DVD or bluray, or burn the AVCHD disk to a DVD for use in a bluray player.

Any idea why my whites only go up to 234 or 235 (regardless of how low I turn the contrast) when using the white pattern on AVSHD? I thought it might be the Samsung, but I've read other posts in this forum up people getting 254 or so. At first I thought my receiver might be clipping, but it's the same even when I bypass the receiver. Perhaps it's the Blu ray player? My blu ray player (JVC) is set to output YCC, but it's the same for RGB (which I wouldn't want fr blu ray discs anyway, right?). Any idea where my WTWs are going, and should I even be concerned about finding them anyway??? :-)

P.S. - I figured out the "pink" bars on the white level setting. It happens from having the contrast too high...I found some posts referring to this after doing some poking around on this thread. I have to turn contrast down to the low 90s to get the bars gray.

As you have ruled out the receiver, it sounds as if it is your bluray player. My Panasonic BD35 player shows WTW and BTB, but my older Pioneer and Sony DVD players do not. It's not critical, as the upper limit on Contrast on these sets is typically that you don't need it too bright in a normal room, and as you noted below, color shift can happen as Contrast approaches 100. Although some do claim that the WTW region is important to preserve artistic fidelity, so it's worth trying to get it to pass through. Same on BTB; I like the AVSHD near black pattern, but you can adjust for levels 17 and 18 without accessing the BTB region.


That was certainly my experience; I saw color shift in the Pluge pattern when the Contrast was too high.

Good luck,
Bill

Hi, I have had the 46a650 for a while now and love it. I recently got a new computer that was capable of dual monitors so I hooked up the tv too it though a hdmi cable that is plugged into a dvi converter on the pc side.

So I have a 23 inch samsung monitor that I use when the family is home and the 46" TV when they are gone. The problem I have is the color on the 46" is just horrible compared to my 23". I have tried adjusting the color, but can not even get it close. Just a brief overview of what I see. Reds and greens seem to have a washed out look. words on the screen seem distorted somehow. The have a redish shadow atm. Most likely due to my current color settings. When I watch TV or play on the xbox 360 everything seems real good. Can windows 7 help me dial in the color to match the monitor? Is my TV not as good as my $200 monitor? Any tips or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi. I was wondering how I would or should calibrate my Direct TV input to my set. I just finished cal. my BD input w/Warm2 mode. Would I just swap the BD player with the Sat. HDMI inputs and cal. the same way I did the BD input? Also, I know that there is a problem with the Blue. In standard mode, the temp. is about 9600k. How do you adjust your RGB out with this issue? And, am I correct in assuming that once you set your WB & Color Space, those settings applies across the board to all modes-Standard, Movie, etc.

Thanks.
Bob.

I found this setting very good for my eyes and they were post on this site.

♠PS3 Settings♠ Below Best to be used with PS3

Backlight = 0~10 (Your Option) I recommend Movie 0~3, Standard 5~10.
(Calibrated with Backlight @ 0)
Contrast = 95★ (Don't Touch)
Brightness = 46 (Don't Touch)
Sharpness = 0 (Your Option) (I have Sharpness set @ 0)
Color = 51 (Don't Touch)
Tint = G50/R50 (Don't Touch)

DETAILED SETTINGS
Black Adjust = Off★ (You choices)
Dynamic Contrast = Off★ (Your choices)
*Note: For ppl who wanna use Dynamic Type please only use Black Adjust Low
+ Dynamic Contrast Low together only!
Gamma = +1 (Don't Touch)
Color Space = Custom (Don't Touch)
xvYCC = Off (Don't Touch, unless the material supports xvYCC.)

[Primary Colors - Important for Everything]
Red
R = 47
G = 0
B =0
Green
R = 24
G = 56
B = 0
Blue
R = 12
G = 0
B = 58
[Secondary Colors - Very Important for Accurate Skin Tones]
Yellow
R = 48
G = 55
B = 0
Cyan
R = 21
G = 51
B = 60
Magenta
R =47
G = 0
B = 49

Flesh Tone = 0
Edge Enhancement = On/Off (Whichever You Favor) (Personally have it Off for
Movie/Videos and Off for Standard/Gaming) Calibrated with it Off
xvYCC = Off

WHITE BALANCE (Don't Touch)
R-Offset = 27
G-Offset = 25
B-Offset = 26
R-Gain = 22
G-Gain = 25
B-Gain = 29

PICTURE OPTIONS
Color Tone = Warm1 (Don't Touch) (Calibrated under Warm1, I use "warm1" for
Movie/Video and "Cool1" for Standard/Gaming)
Digital N/R = Off (Personally have it set on Off) Calibrated with it Off
AutoMotionPlus/Movie Plus = High (Your Option) Calibrated with it Off
Blue Mode = Off

Energy Saving = Medium (Calibrated with it Off) Personally have Energy
Saving on Medium with Backlight 3 for Movie and Backlight 5 for Standard
for the Plasma-Look.
Entertainment modes = Off

+PS3 RGB Range (HDMI) -> "Limited (16~235)" (Don't Touch)
+PS3 Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI) -> "On" (Don't Touch)
+BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI) -> Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr (Don't Touch) Size:
Just Scan
Hdmi Black Level :Grayed out (PS3 is YCC) or else LOW
AMP OFF (Up to You)
PS3 BD/DVD Cinema Conversion Automatic
PS3 1080p 24p Automatic
PS3 Cross Color Reduction OFF

It is nigh on impossible to calibrate a cable/sat input, as you cannot put the patterns on it. I think all the HDMI inputs are identical, so if you want to use the same settings you developed for your bluray player, you can copy those to Direct TV HDMI input and see how the look. That is what worked for me, the settings from my BD35 player work well for the Scientific Atlanta cable box. Still keeping everything in Movie mode, with the same color tone, in my case Warm1.

The Samsung keeps its settings by source. So if you want to use the same settings for another source, you go to that source and enter them. As regards the modes, it is a little trickier to predict. Some it keeps per mode, but you're right the color space is once for the source. Basically, I don't switch modes, I run everything in Movie mode -- but then again I don't do much gaming.

Bill

The software that came with the EyeOne DisplayLT probe I bought for calibrating does a good job of building a Windows display .icc calibration file for each display. That tells Windows how the colors appear on the screen, and adjusts the levels in windows to give the chosen gamma on the screen. So, under Vista, when I choose to run dual screens, if I load the calibration profile for the Samsung on the second screen, the colors come out good. Not as accurate as the ones calibrated to a test DVD, but close.

So the simple answer is that, in HDMI/PC mode, you have to do much of the color tuning under Windows, not at the set. The EyeOne approach worked well for me. I'm sure there are other alternatives, but I haven't looked for them.

Bill