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Sony 4k wins this one. - Page 3

post #61 of 97
5/20/08 at 7:44am
Which camera today gives the best 1080p60 resolution. We must remember that the p60 paramter is important with moving pictures.
I hope JVC can deliver plenty of lumen at that price considering Sony has a sub 100k price for their 4k display SYSTEM but the lens is excluded.
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post #62 of 97
5/20/08 at 8:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

yes very likely from sony we will see soon there first demos units at cedia
or infocomm this year with we may can purchase late this year or
beginning next year this pr.

as it will push ti a bit to bring also 4k thats anyway good for us all.

i guess that at the same timeframe we will see high cr. high lumen
xenon 2k dlps.

I sure hope you are right regarding this pushing TI. High lumen high CR DLP should look better but of course the rumor is that the 4Ks will be hitting between 50,000 and 100,000:1 FF CR.

Art
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post #63 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim HTPC View Post

I met with JVC Pro. Their 4K will be available this year. The first one is being installed in NY I believe was the comment. The price is not official but it is expected to cost over $100K.


The Barco version should be available by now, it was introduced in January. price under 100K euro.

Sony initially said the 10K/5K would have a projectprice of 100K, not sure what they are actually going for these days.

As for uncompressed 4K bitrates (well 4:2:2 compression aside), it is 12 gigabit, if one would use HD-SDI and its associated overhead (700-800 Mbit on a 3 gig channel). That's why the IBC fiberdemo was compressed using interlacing, as they were using an STM circuit (10 Gig). The Vutrix version of the 56" CMO lcd panel comes with a 10 gig ethernet input, so you may be able to get 4:2:2 4K in just under 10 gig, with some tricks to reduce overhead.
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post #64 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Which camera today gives the best 1080p60 resolution. We must remember that the p60 paramter is important with moving pictures.
I hope JVC can deliver plenty of lumen at that price considering Sony has a sub 100k price for their 4k display SYSTEM but the lens is excluded.

Sony 1500 series? Thomson?
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post #65 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

the hunt for the best picture will be never over ontill we have
a holo deck

Come on Wolfgang, at that point you would want a proper molecular materializer, no longer settling for a proxy, called 'image'.
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post #66 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:16am
Art S.
We know that it is Sony and JVC that makes and can make 4k projectors. Now you mention a rumor of a very high ff cc from a 4k projector. With respect to JVC it makes some sense but JVC claim "only" 10000:1 for their 4k unit. Sony only manages about 2000:1. That 50000-100000:1 stands out. Are you saying that a new technology is about to enter the market or has Sony had a breakthrough development?

donaldk
Sony says 95k$ for the srx-r220 system without the lens. This includes all media handling, software and a UPS. Thus the media server is included!
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post #67 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:27am
Art,
Would you buy a 4k LCoS projector or a 2k 3-DLP assuming they had the same lumens and CR but the tecnologies look equivalent to what you have experienced so far.
Also, assume that video processing is done externally.
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post #68 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

Come on Wolfgang, at that point you would want a proper molecular materializer, no longer settling for a proxy, called 'image'.

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post #69 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson View Post

Art S.
We know that it is Sony and JVC that makes and can make 4k projectors. Now you mention a rumor of a very high ff cc from a 4k projector. With respect to JVC it makes some sense but JVC claim "only" 10000:1 for their 4k unit. Sony only manages about 2000:1. That 50000-100000:1 stands out. Are you saying that a new technology is about to enter the market or has Sony had a breakthrough development?

donaldk
Sony says 95k$ for the srx-r220 system without the lens. This includes all media handling, software and a UPS. Thus the media server is included!

I'm hearing some new chips and new implementation and literally that's all I know.

Who the hell knows but this will be the most exciting CEDIA in four years IMO.

Art
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post #70 of 97
5/20/08 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrikos View Post

Art,
Would you buy a 4k LCoS projector or a 2k 3-DLP assuming they had the same lumens and CR but the tecnologies look equivalent to what you have experienced so far.
Also, assume that video processing is done externally.

Only seeing them would be enough. After minor things that may be omitted making such an impact I think that looking at things is just so crucial to weigh the balance of flaws.

ANSI and MTF are big deals in the way an image pops or looks 3D in bright material IMO. But hard to argue with enormous resolution increases that can be used for anything you want including built in anamorphic capability not to mention on/off approaching 9" LC CRT.

Art
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post #71 of 97
5/20/08 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Red Ray, an upcoming 4k optical disc player (standard red lasers) from the makers of the 4k Red One digital-cinema camera, hasn't--so far--received much speculation about potential consumer use. It's for production and some suggest it could also deliver 4k movies in digital-cinema theaters. If it further compresses already compressed Red-format recordings, 4k PQ might be reduced. But the link to more Red Ray discussion and speculation is below in a copy of another post on Red One production:

Hmm most have missed that one. We had a few people from Pixel Corps go to NAB again this year. Alex Lindsay our founder is in love with the RED line. Do to all my travel I've not been able to make it to any of the events, just goes to show how far you can fall behind.

If things come to light at CEDIA I agree with Art this could be a very interesting year. Hopefully I can make it to the big show
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post #72 of 97
5/20/08 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

4K projection is coming soon with scaling from HD to 4K.

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense. Like 960p with CRTs for 480p sources (or even somewhat like 720p displays for 480p sources, although without the perfect 4:1 ratio). The source is really points in space, so 4 pixels for each point in space should be a good thing. Also, I like the idea of 4k for doing convergence adjustments across the whole screen and still basically having 2k resolution outside any adjustments that use 2 lines.

While I would of course like to see improvements other than resolution, I wouldn't turn down 4k vs 2k if other issues were as good (or better), unless it was just because I didn't want to spend the extra money for the 4k resolution.

--Darin
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post #73 of 97
5/20/08 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense. Like 960p with CRTs for 480p sources (or even somewhat like 720p displays for 480p sources, although without the perfect 4:1 ratio). The source is really points in space, so 4 pixels for each point in space should be a good thing. Also, I like the idea of 4k for doing convergence adjustments across the whole screen and still basically having 2k resolution outside any adjustments that use 2 lines.

While I would of course like to see improvements other than resolution, I wouldn't turn down 4k vs 2k if other issues were as good (or better), unless it was just because I didn't want to spend the extra money for the 4k resolution.

--Darin

Yes,all other things being equal. But of course, they won't be. It's the nagging other smaller differences. All I've seen so far is the Sony 4K two years ago and the image looked very very flat with horrendous uniformity issues, and very poor panel alignment.

I'm assuming these will be solved.

Art
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post #74 of 97
5/20/08 at 4:20pm
As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense.

no i can not agree.
i had 2 years ago a sony qualia and a sony 4k feed side by side
in my home with the 7m screen.
i had the 4k sony for more than one week and i had hope that this was the case but
i cant see any "big improvment" in the picture when i feed 2k and upscale it to 4k.

but as i will get soon a demo from the new barco 4k (jvc clone) i will test it again.
but it now barco cinema dlp dp 2000 vs lcos 4k pr. and not the qualia anymore.
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post #75 of 97
5/20/08 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

As has been discussed here a little bit, having 4x the resolution in the projector as the source makes a lot of sense.

no i can not agree.
i had 2 years ago a sony qualia and a sony 4k feed side by side
in my home with the 7m screen.
i had the 4k sony for more than one week and i had hope that this was the case but
i cant see any "big improvment" in the picture when i feed 2k and upscale it to 4k.

How was your convergence? There are lots of things that can hurt images even if one area is improved. Also, lots of things discussed on this forum aren't big improvements, but small improvements. At a close enough viewing distance with detailed source (a source can be encoded at 1080p and still not really have a lot of detail in it) I would expect to see some improvement going from 2k to 4k, if other things are held equal. If ANSI CR goes down, then that alone could hurt the perception of resolution though.

I don't recall any measurements, but my memory is that the 4k Sony I saw at CEDIA years ago had bad CR in the images.

--Darin
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post #76 of 97
5/20/08 at 8:35pm
I sincerely doubt you'll find high power xenon bulbs in these 4K projectors using LCOS DILA technology ,like you see with Barco and Christie. There isn't an exhaust port that I could see for A/C ventilation and cooling.

I requested the RS-"yet to be released" PR to have higher lumen output with the high sequential contrast. We'll see what they ultimately decide on. I think the market that JVC Pro is in won't go with "May cause death" disclaimers on their products by improper handling of xenon bulbs.

Does anyone have info on the bulb used in the current 4K JVC? I forgot to ask during my meeting.
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post #77 of 97
5/20/08 at 8:39pm
Just as I suspected, it's only a 800W Xenon bulb in the 4K PR.
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post #78 of 97
5/21/08 at 8:10am
The consumer 4K units aren't going to be optimal for a 23' wide screen like Wolkgang has. I'm not sure they will be optimal for a 14' wide screen like mine based on how fast xenon drops in light output. I'm all for changing lamps more frequently ,say every six months based on the projector cost ,if the lamps aren't 3 grand apiece

Art
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post #79 of 97
5/21/08 at 8:30am
I am for not putting in the lamps at all.

We seem to lack recent first hand impressions of where 4k digital cinema projectors from Sony are today. What are the pros and cons now?
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post #80 of 97
5/23/08 at 7:14am
Quote:


“Reach for Me,” the first feature-length motion picture to be shot and produced entirely in 4K, will be screened tonight on Sony’s 4K Digital Cinema Projection System. Directed by LeVar Burton and produced by AMediaVision Productions, the movie was captured using DALSA’s Origin 4K cinematography camera, with 4K image processing and digital intermediate (DI) managed by Post Logic.

Lead paragraph from this May 5th press release . Sorry if mentioned elsewhere; a forum search here for "reach" didn't hit anything AFAIK. -- John
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post #81 of 97
6/9/08 at 6:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

John,
Could you link to this paper ?

Here's a link to what's apparently a pdf equivalent of the SMPTE paper (Arri draft copy) I mentioned above :
http://efilm.com/publish/2008/05/19/4K%20plus.pdf
Someone in the HD software media forum uncovered it recently. -- John
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post #82 of 97
6/9/08 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Here's a link to what's apparently a pdf equivalent of the SMPTE paper (Arri draft copy) I mentioned above :
http://efilm.com/publish/2008/05/19/4K%20plus.pdf
Someone in the HD software media forum uncovered it recently. -- John

John

Good stuff. I missed it first time around. Thanks for resurrecting.
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post #83 of 97
6/11/08 at 4:47pm
It sounds as if the list pricing between the Sony and Barco (JVC) 4Ks are in the same ballpark. Is the reported price of the Barco including lens....I assume not?
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post #84 of 97
6/11/08 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pavr View Post

It sounds as if the list pricing between the Sony and Barco (JVC) 4Ks are in the same ballpark. Is the reported price of the Barco including lens....I assume not?

What was that price ?

Art
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post #85 of 97
6/11/08 at 8:42pm
80-90K Euro plus tax for the Barco, and 95K USD plus tax for the 18K Sony. These are the figures that have been mentioned here on AVS, recently, and pavr seems to be referring to.

I believe Ohlson came up with the Sony figure, Wolfgang with the Barco one.
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post #86 of 97
6/12/08 at 6:52am
The 95k MSRP was for a complete R220 system which includes a server but the price does not include the lens. This is from memory so I could have things mixed up but it is available on a Sony web site.
However the machines mentioned are very different animals. The Sony is for the big cinema screen and the others are for smaller screens and likely made for simulation applications.
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post #87 of 97
6/12/08 at 10:27am
The Barco is completely targeted at and seemingly only marketed to the enterprise collaboration market, not the simulation market (see for instance ISE and infocomm pre-show info). Barco has a simulation series based on the Gemedis LCoS panels.
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post #88 of 97
6/17/08 at 2:25pm
sony will have in october 2008 a new version of there
r 110 4k pr.

the biggest differnce is it will have dvi WITH HDCP and the noise level should be
lees than the r110.
price will be arround the same and cr. the still spec. 2000:1 but i hear
they can do now 2500:1 with still low ansi at in the best case 300:1.
the call the unit r 110 "t"

sad that it takes more than 2 years to get hdcp on there input and
seams that jvc make the same mistake again with there new 4k pr.

when companys will learn it?
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post #89 of 97
6/18/08 at 1:56am
W.Mayer
So what will the Sony professional 4k line up look like?
R220 system
R210 system
R110t
S110t

Do you know what separates the R and S models?

I will anser my own question
R-line
24,48fps at 4k and HD-SDI
S-line
24.48,60fps at 4k

But I do hope that Sony goes to a single lamp solution for all models or is there any benefit from having dual lamp? Also for 3D it would be good if they could speed up to 120fps.
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post #90 of 97
6/18/08 at 2:32am
i am not very interestet in this.
the only big differnce will be the "t" model will have hdcp that it.

i am not sure but i guess there will be 2 "t" models.

the 105 with 5000 lumen and the 110 with 10000 lumen.
dont think they will change lamp design or other major parts.
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