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Where we're at with 2 Mbps 720p

post #1 of 20
4/2/08 at 10:51pm
Thread Starter 
The new forum is kind of quiet.

Anyway, I thought I'd start a new thread about how far we can push compression. Here's my latest 2 Mbps 720p effort:

http://on10.net/blogs/benwagg/21587/

This bitrate is a bit too low for a real download service, but we're definitely getting good stuff at lower rates. That clip is pretty darn good @ 3 Mbps.
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post #2 of 20
4/3/08 at 4:51am
Looks pretty good. No real obvious blocking. Is the source that dark though?

Is it just me or does it use a lot of cpu power to decode? Quite a bit more than the h.264 720p trailers on Apple's site.
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post #3 of 20
4/3/08 at 11:00am
Thats a good picture its jus a little dark but still good though
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post #4 of 20
4/3/08 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

The new forum is kind of quiet.

We were waiting for you.

Quote:


Anyway, I thought I'd start a new thread about how far we can push compression. Here's my latest 2 Mbps 720p effort:

http://on10.net/blogs/benwagg/21587/

This bitrate is a bit too low for a real download service, but we're definitely getting good stuff at lower rates. That clip is pretty darn good @ 3 Mbps.

That's some good stuff - amazing really, given the low bit rate. Is it 2 mbps or 3 mbps? Including audio?

When are we going to see the fruits of your labors at a slightly higher bitrate beyond the XBox 360, as I've relegated that to the basement HDTV (explosions were giving me a headache).
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post #5 of 20
4/3/08 at 3:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

That's some good stuff - amazing really, given the low bit rate. Is it 2 mbps or 3 mbps? Including audio?

2 Mbps, including audio.

Quote:


When are we going to see the fruits of your labors at a slightly higher bitrate beyond the XBox 360, as I've relegated that to the basement HDTV (explosions were giving me a headache).

Beyond Xbox 360? the 360 can handle crazy high bitrates; I've gone up to 40 Mbps for 1080p24 without dropped frames.

Pitch a demo of something you'd like to see, and I'll see what I can pull together (although I'm pretty busy until NAB is over).
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post #6 of 20
4/4/08 at 3:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

2 Mbps, including audio.


Beyond Xbox 360? the 360 can handle crazy high bitrates; I've gone up to 40 Mbps for 1080p24 without dropped frames.

Pitch a demo of something you'd like to see, and I'll see what I can pull together (although I'm pretty busy until NAB is over).

Sorry, meant "When are we going to see the fruits of your labors at a slightly higher bitrate than 2 mbps on a platform other than the XBox 360?
(that trailer was amazing for it's size though).

From the news reports I've been reading it looks like we are in for an explosion of 'net based HD. Seems like yesterday (because it was) that I read this...

Quote:


What does it feel like to back the wrong horse? Thompson laughs resolutely. "What do you mean?" he jokes. "The horse that we're fundamentally backing is the one that says the future of entertainment content is online digital distribution. I would argue that we backed the right horse.

"If we're sitting here in 12 or 18 months time, we'll be saying 'why were people even thinking about a disc format when it's really about digital distribution?' Our strategy's been developed for the last six or seven years, and ever since we launched the platform it [online content] has been our big, big, big bet."

For people to dismiss optical disc in 12 to 18 months, stuff must be in the pipeline already...
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post #7 of 20
4/4/08 at 6:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

For people to dismiss optical disc in 12 to 18 months, stuff must be in the pipeline already...

So you think downloads are going to become mainstream not five to ten years from now, when flash media and HDDs with massive storage space become cheap, but in 12 months despite no infrastructure for downloads and the relative high cost of storage space?
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post #8 of 20
4/4/08 at 6:13pm
Also, some people think a 700mb divx download is DVD quality, or that UMD on the small PSP screen looks HD.

I also have to say that if this supposed network is anything like PSN or Xbox Live, it will take a very, very long time for a movie to be ready to play after pressing the button. It takes about two hours for me to download one gig on either network.
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post #9 of 20
4/6/08 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

It takes about two hours for me to download one gig on either network.

How typical is that, though? You can't just project your own current experience on the medium in general. I thought most people with broadband are able to start watching on XBLM after 15-30 minutes, which implies a faster speed than what you're reporting. I know that my cablemodem takes me about 30 minutes to download a gig generally, and it's not cutting edge or premium service, it's just run-of-the-mill $35/mo service that's available city-wide.
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post #10 of 20
4/6/08 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

Also, some people think a 700mb divx download is DVD quality, or that UMD on the small PSP screen looks HD.

I also have to say that if this supposed network is anything like PSN or Xbox Live, it will take a very, very long time for a movie to be ready to play after pressing the button. It takes about two hours for me to download one gig on either network.

It takes 2 min or less for me to be able to watch a HD move on XBL. I have comcast 8mb service with powerbost. So maybe you may want to think about upgrading your ISP.
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post #11 of 20
4/6/08 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

So you think downloads are going to become mainstream not five to ten years from now, when flash media and HDDs with massive storage space become cheap, but in 12 months despite no infrastructure for downloads and the relative high cost of storage space?

I believe in 12 months the hot topic will be downloads, not optical disc.

Check the news thread - the build out has begun in earnest. Comcast will have passed by 49 million homes by 2010. Verizon will have passed another 18 million homes with fiber. Time Warner, Cox, and others have plans to build out wide band networks.

As far as storage is concerned, a 750Gb HDD goes for about $140 retail. OEM price is much cheaper. By next year 1TB drives should be available at that price or below. At 20Gb/movie that's 50 movies before you have to buy another add-on (assuming you buy instead of rent). With advanced codec improvements, quality movies should take up less storage than that.
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post #12 of 20
4/6/08 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox-SJ View Post

I have comcast 8mb service with powerbost. So maybe you may want to think about upgrading your ISP.

No, DSL is good enough for me. It only costs me $20 a month whereas cable would be $50 after taxes and fees.
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post #13 of 20
4/6/08 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

I believe in 12 months the hot topic will be downloads, not optical disc.

Check the news thread - the build out has begun in earnest. Comcast will have passed by 49 million homes by 2010. Verizon will have passed another 18 million homes with fiber. Time Warner, Cox, and others have plans to build out wide band networks.

As far as storage is concerned, a 750Gb HDD goes for about $140 retail. OEM price is much cheaper. By next year 1TB drives should be available at that price or below. At 20Gb/movie that's 50 movies before you have to buy another add-on (assuming you buy instead of rent). With advanced codec improvements, quality movies should take up less storage than that.

How fantastic Comcast will have 49 million customers using their internet services by sometime in 2010. Too bad that this will actually hurt downloads because with Comcast VOD (assuming that the majority of Comcast internet users also have Comcast cable services) there is less reason to buy or "lease" an Apple TV or VUDU. Seriously I was flipping through Comcast VOD the other day and they had Slaughter High and Cutting Class in HD, something I never expect to see on Blu ray or downloads for that matter.
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post #14 of 20
4/7/08 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

Too bad that this will actually hurt downloads because with Comcast VOD (assuming that the majority of Comcast internet users also have Comcast cable services) there is less reason to buy or "lease" an Apple TV or VUDU.

If you would prefer to think of the glass as 7/8 empty, then that is your perogative. I, however, highly doubt that Ben is sitting on his hands looking for something to do.
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post #15 of 20
4/7/08 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

How fantastic Comcast will have 49 million customers using their internet services by sometime in 2010. Too bad that this will actually hurt downloads because with Comcast VOD (assuming that the majority of Comcast internet users also have Comcast cable services) there is less reason to buy or "lease" an Apple TV or VUDU. Seriously I was flipping through Comcast VOD the other day and they had Slaughter High and Cutting Class in HD, something I never expect to see on Blu ray or downloads for that matter.

Try netflix online service. Watched a movie lastnight and it looked like DVD quality. We didnt have to wait for it to download either. It streamed while we watched. I have 5Mbps Charter cable that on a good day act likes a 4Mbps connection.
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post #16 of 20
4/7/08 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 30XS955 User View Post

No, DSL is good enough for me. It only costs me $20 a month whereas cable would be $50 after taxes and fees.

I don't think speeds below 1 Mbps count in a discussion about broadband.
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post #17 of 20
4/10/08 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post

I don't think speeds below 1 Mbps count in a discussion about broadband.

But DSL can be quite a bit faster than that! I've got a reliable 3 Mbps at home right now, and Qwest is going to start further speed upgrades this spring.
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post #18 of 20
4/11/08 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

But DSL can be quite a bit faster than that! I've got a reliable 3 Mbps at home right now, and Qwest is going to start further speed upgrades this spring.

We were paying for a 6Mbps down, 1.5Mbps up DSL like at my old place of employment. Cost was 65 bucks a month. The costs are coming down.
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post #19 of 20
4/11/08 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post

But DSL can be quite a bit faster than that! I've got a reliable 3 Mbps at home right now, and Qwest is going to start further speed upgrades this spring.

I agree, but the download times being mentioned by 30XS955User imply a speed significantly below 1 Mbps.
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post #20 of 20
4/14/08 at 6:41pm
Many providers cap your general download speeds so you don't get the super duper speeds unless they randomly allocate to you as part of their "speed boosting" or it only takes effect when certain conditions are met on the area network. I've had download speeds go from full blast to 1/3rd at the flip of a switch.
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